Stark wrong doings and crimes...

[Thomask]

Well I have seen that there is a list of Lannister wrong doings going around and although I agree with the list I think there are a lot of Stark wrong doings aswell. I think we should have made a thread with lists of wrong doings for each of the great houses. I started with the Starks because I feel that many people don't think that the Starks are doing anything wrong. Some of these statement can be arguable. Please feel free to debate. Maybe you even wan't to add something to this list?

1) Robb breaking his marriage contract. It was bad for a king to do. He tries to fix this latter by giving them Edmure.

2) Catelyn taking Tyrion prisoner because she suspected him to have killed her son. Taking her to Lysa so she can try sentence him to death.

3) Catelyn releasing Jaime Lannister, because she wanted her daughters back. Robb where the one to decide what should happen to Jaime Lannister. Not Catelyn.

4) Robb killing Richard Karstark and and not waiting till the end of the war therfore letting nothing stop the Karstak (and other) men from pillaging the Riverlands. (assuming Karstark could call them of)

5) Robb leaving the Riverlands behind for the Lannisters to take.

6) Eddard Stark making war because he choose to give Cersei a chance to get away with her crimes. (gets him self killed in the process)

7) Arya killing a innocent guard because she want to escape from her own army. She did save herself, but Roose's itentions are unknown to her.

8) Robb not making peace even though he know he can't win anymore and he knows the Riverlands is going to pay for it.

9) Ned Stark sentence Gregor Clegane to death and Tywin to court without counsulting Robert. He had the right, but it seems like a bit thin because it could have been someone else. Although it's dubtfoully.

10) Ned Stark never asking Jaime Lannister about the killing of Aerys.

The line between what a crime is and isn't is a bit unclear because we do not know the laws of the seven kingdoms (only inhertance laws). Most of what I have stated is not a crime, but simply something I feel is morally wrong because someone innocent has to pay for it aswell as the Starks. What I have choosen to categorize as crimes is:

2) Catelyn is kidnapping Tyrion against his will whitout permission from the lord paramount in the Riverland where the crime takes place (she would probably be given permission to kidnap him, but she never asked).

3) Catelyn releasing a prisoner of the king whitout his permission. This is treason. Treason is categorized as a crime because Rickard Karstark is sentenced to death because of treason. I agree that killing children and simply releasing a prisoner is two different crimes in scale.

7) Arya do kill a guard. The guard is emplyed by Roose Bolton. Bolton's swear fealty to the Stark and she did not know he was going to betray the Starks. She probably did save herself, but she didn't know she did.

There is also some wrongs where the Starks are just to be half-blamed because some other did half the mistake like 10) Ned Stark never asking Jaime.

You will see that there is no statements about Bran, Rickon (he is three) or Benjen here. However I think there probably is some characters from the other great houses that haven't done anything bad we know about. I haven't counted Jon becuase I feel like he is with the night's watch. So his crimes should be counted as crimes of the night's watch. I have also made a list of Stark right doings and other heroistic victorys which is the complete opposite of this list.

The Starks are my favourite house in the whole series, but still they are doing some bad things (almost always unintenional). I think that some of the other great houses has done many more bad things. This list however only contains the Starks.

I will edit the listconsecutively. This list is not made as a offence against the Lannister list (which I think is great). Here it is: http://asoiaf.wester...d-wrong-doings/

[Father of Hosts]

I don't remember the Ned ever making war.

As Hand of the King, Ned acted within his authority to call Tywin to court. He never called Tywin to trial.

[David Selig]

There is a lot of wrong stuff in this list. Catelyn didn't make Rickard Karstark do anything, his crimes were his own and he is fully responsible. When Rickard was executed, his men had already deserted, and letting a child murderer go would've been the crime there - the execution was the right call. Ned as the Hand had the right to make judgements when the King was away. Mycah was already dead when Sansa was asked to tell what happened, etc...

[Thomask]

I don't remember the Ned ever making war.

As Hand of the King, Ned acted within his authority to call Tywin to court. He never called Tywin to trial.

That's true I will correct it :)

[Thomask]

There is a lot of wrong stuff in this list. Catelyn didn't make Rickard Karstark do anything, his crimes were his own and he is fully responsible. When Rickard was executed, his men had already deserted, and letting a child murderer go would've been the crime there - the execution was the right call. Ned as the Hand had the right to make judgements when the King was away. Mycah was already dead when Sansa was asked to tell what happened, etc...

Thank you I will try to correct some of the mistakes.

[Corvo Attano]

Jon done nothing wrong? :bang:

[Toxspecific]

Sending Theon home does not qualify as a crime at all. Seriously, makin threads just for the sake of making threads.

[mrunderhill]

There is a lot of wrong stuff in this list. Catelyn didn't make Rickard Karstark do anything, his crimes were his own and he is fully responsible. When Rickard was executed, his men had already deserted, and letting a child murderer go would've been the crime there - the execution was the right call. Ned as the Hand had the right to make judgements when the King was away. Mycah was already dead when Sansa was asked to tell what happened, etc...

Threads like these are generally pointless, because they are no "good" Houses. All Houses like All nations have many crimes and enormities. Mycah may have already been dead, but Sansa's did not know that when she lied. Her lies were going to cost Mycah both hands at least and probably his life.

[Thomask]

Jon done nothing wrong? :bang:

Sorry I meant not for the faction because I feel like he stands with the night watch. I will correct that :)

[Thomask]

Threads like these are generally pointless, because they are no "good" Houses. All Houses like All nations have many crimes and enormities. Mycah may have already been dead, but Sansa's did not know that when she lied. Her lies were going to cost Mycah both hands at least and probably his life.

I agree that's why I think every great house should have a list like this. So people can see why they aren't that good :)

[Chocolate_dream]

1) Treason to the throne twice, first time to the Targaryens and second to the Baratheons

2) Arya killing innocents

3) Catelyn treason to her own son by releasing Jaime

4) Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion

5) Sansa accessory to murder

[danm_999]

Sending Theon home does not qualify as a crime at all. Seriously, makin threads just for the sake of making threads.

Yes the OP seems to have conflated morally wrong (which was the point of the Lannister thread) with strategically or pragmatically wrong.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

1) Treason to the throne twice, first time to the Targaryens and second to the Baratheons

Could you explain what you mean with this one? Do you mean Ned hiding Jon?

[Thomask]

Could you explain what you mean with this one? Do you mean Ned hiding Jon?

I will edit :)

[Father of Hosts]

I think that you are going to find that the Starks have committed relatively few "crimes." A lot of you're "crimes" seem to imply that they are only "crimes" because they created bad situations.

ETA: The quotes are not meant to imply sarcasm. Just the relative nature of crime in the ASOIAF world.

[Thomask]

I think that you are going to find that the Starks have committed relatively few "crimes." A lot of you're "crimes" seem to imply that they are only "crimes" because they created bad situations.

ETA: The quotes are not meant to imply sarcasm. Just the relative nature of crime in the ASOIAF world.

A lot of them are just wrong doings :) There are a few crimes there as well (Arya killiing innocents and Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion), but not many :) This list is premary made of wrong doings, maybe I should make it more clare? I will if someone thing I should :)

[Frozentree]

7) You realize that she just saved her life, right? Yes, i know, she did not know about Bolton's plans, but on the other hand you included things which unexpectedly turned wrong due to the results, so I think you should use the same logic for everything (3), for example, would be the "right choice" which had terrible results which Catelyn did not and could not expect)

[Toxspecific]

Yes the OP seems to have conflated morally wrong (which was the point of the Lannister thread) with strategically or pragmatically wrong.

That's pretty much what OP is doing, indeed.

[Thomask]

Yes the OP seems to have conflated morally wrong (which was the point of the Lannister thread) with strategically or pragmatically wrong.

I can see that I have done so. I will try to correct some statements and perhaps add why I think it is morally wrong and not just strategic wrong. I don't understand the word pragmatically, so I am afraid I can't prevent that :P

[danm_999]

I can see that I have done so. I will try to correct some statements and perhaps add why I think it is morally wrong and not just strategic wrong. I don't understand the word pragmatically so I am afraid I can't prevent that :P

It means practical or logical. To be pragmatic means you act in a way where you're likely to succeed, but not necessarily be very nice or good. Tywin is an example of a generally pragmatic character, for instance.