Hodor SSM about the Crypts

[mindchap]

I'm reading through the SSMs and came across this question:

Hodor and the Crypts

After rereading both AGOT and ACOK I was wondering about one question: Why was Hodor not afraid of the crypts under Winterfell at the end of ACOK? In AGOT Hodor was very afraid of the crypts, he wouldn't take Bran down there, but in ACOK he stayed with Bran and Rickon in the crypt for quite a while, how did he stay there if he was so afraid?

Hodor was only afraid of the crypts =at that specific time.= Not before and not after.

Any theories on why GRRM answered that way?

If there's a thread on this somewhere please point me the right way, because I couldn't find one.

[Free Northman]

I think it's fairly obvious that Martin was hinting that there was something weird about the crypts at that particular point in time, and that Hodor somehow was able to sense it.

I need to reread that bit in aGoT again, but if I recall correctly, wasn't this around the time that Eddard was killed and Rickon had dreamt about it in advance?

My view is that Hodor was afraid because Eddard's newly released spirit had returned to the crypts to take residence there, and Hodor could sense it.

[N/A]

i read that too but couldn't make sense of it, maybe it has something to do with the missing swords and the spirits and what not

[Lads]

OR Howland Reed is a warg and warged into him to get brain to the crypt :o xD

[mindchap]

I was thinking maybe it was reference to the part when Rickon and Shaggy are down there, cause I think that's when Hodor freaks out and Osha has to carry Bran down, but that would mean Hodor could sense Shaggy(maybe) or Rickon.

[Lads]

Maybe Hodor was just afraid of the dark, and then to help his friend, bran , he overcame himself.

is he even capable to do this ?

[mindchap]

But Martin says not before and not after

[Free Northman]

But Martin says not before and not after

It's Eddard's spirit. Hodor could sense its presence.

[mindchap]

It's Eddard's spirit. Hodor could sense its presence.

But wouldn't his spirit have stayed there? I mean would his spirit just visit the crypts and then go elsewhere?

[N/A]

But wouldn't his spirit have stayed there? I mean would his spirit just visit the crypts and then go elsewhere?

ned always wanted to just leave everything and go sight seeing :lol:

[mindchap]

ned always wanted to just leave everything and go sight seeing :lol:

Maybe en route to the "frozen hell reserved only for the Starks of Winterfell".

[N/A]

Maybe en route to the "frozen hell reserved only for the Starks of Winterfell".

ned,to hell ? blasphemy

[mindchap]

Come to think of it, IIRC, Summer didn't want to go down then either, maybe him and Hodor could both sense Bran's anxiety. It wasn't until Shaggy jumped out at Luwin that Summer kind of came to the rescue.

ned,to hell ? blasphemy

It was his dream not mine.

[Lady Evyta]

Hodor is much abused after Theon takes Winterfell, so the crypts are the lesser of two evils, yes? Furthermore, Jojen and Meera project comfort and safety. Regardless, several other funky happenings occur during the visit Hodor is replaced by Osha.

During the crypt visit in AGoT, Rickon and Shaggydog travel through the aisles of the stone statues without the aid of illumination, not once but twice as far as the readers know, and Rickon deliberately licks Maester Luwin’s blood from his [Rickon’s] fingers: “Rickon patted Shaggydog’s muzzle, damp with blood. “I let him loose. He doesn’t like chains.” He licked at his fingers” (734).

I am wondering if part of the warg magic involves the Stark siblings eventually being able to see in the dark, an attribute that is part of the CotF; however, each Stark may receive different gifts through the old gods, and Rickon may be the recipient of keen eyesight. Or Shaggydog may be able to see in the dark, and SD guides Rickon to Ned’s grave.

[mindchap]

Hodor is much abused after Theon takes Winterfell, so the crypts are the lesser of two evils, yes? Furthermore, Jojen and Meera project a comfort and safety. Regardless, several significant events occur on the visit to the crypts that Hodor does not accompany Bran:

During the crypt visit in AGoT, Rickon and Shaggydog travel through the aisles of the stone statues without the aid of illumination, not once but twice as far as the readers know, and Rickon deliberately licks Maester Luwin’s blood from his [Rickon’s] fingers: “Rickon patted Shaggydog’s muzzle, damp with blood. “I let him loose. He doesn’t like chains.” He licked at his fingers” (734).

I am wondering if part of the warg magic involves the Stark siblings eventually being able to see in the dark, an attribute that is part of the CotF; however, each Stark may receive different gifts through the old gods, and Rickon may be the recipient of keen eyesight. Or Shaggydog may be able to see in the dark, and SD guides Rickon to Ned’s grave.

I think he meant Shaggy licked his fingers, and the answer says not before or after, in other words it was just that one particular time that he's afraid of the crypts so it's not the dark.

[HoboJed]

EDIT: never mind... got it. (misunderstood what mindchap was saying. Sounded like he was saying Shaggydog licked his own fingers, but now I see you mean that Shaggydog licked Rickon's fingers which makes a LOT more sense)

[The Bastard of Summer]

I think there was some magic at work down in the crypts during Hodors scared phase. Some not so nice dark magic. I believe there is something brewing down there now that winter has come.

[thenedstark]

I'm reading through the SSMs and came across this question:

Any theories on why GRRM answered that way?

If there's a thread on this somewhere please point me the right way, because I couldn't find one.

interesting question. The explanation is simple IMO:

hodor :)

But seriously, its probably because of Ned's death and Hodor's instincts and/or wargy tendencies.

[Lady Evyta]

I think he meant Shaggy licked his fingers, and the answer says not before or after, in other words it was just that one particular time that he's afraid of the crypts so it's not the dark.

Yes, Shaggy “licking” Rickon’s fingers makes better sense and is certainly more palatable, but the “he” and “him” are vague references: “He licked at his fingers.” To see the grammatical issue with the wording, let us cross out the dialogue in quotes since these sentences are their own unit, and let us focus on the text remaining:

“Rickon patted Shaggydog’s muzzle, damp with blood. “I let him loose. He doesn’t like chains.” He licked at his fingers” (734).

The sentence BEFORE Rickon's dialogue in quotes indicates that "Rickon" is in the subjective/nominative case. In the clause “He licked at his fingers”, who or what is the antecedent for the pronoun “He”? “He” obviously refers to Rickon since Shaggydog’s “muzzle” doesn’t make much sense.

But then, I probably am not making much sense trying to explain the grammatical issues that complicate the clarity of the passage in question. I also tend to parse Martin's key passages, which leads me to an abundance of literary commentary, and I confess my guilt in overanalyzing Martin's works.

[winteristheseason]

Is it possible that Rickon has green dreams similiar to Jojens? I wonder if he too will be a greenseer.