Rockroi

Correct; I'm not saying what he was doing was wrong at all; nor that his acting was poor now that what he did was bad. What I was saying was that the way he reacted was far more genuine and far more true-to life. He did not pull out some crazy line or suddenly become an expert swords man or an amazing dragin rider. He stayed inexperienced.

Also, mild mild MILD continuity error. When the table is lit up, it stops over the Riverlands and shows an area marked "The Twins." But I thought the Twins were not created until After the Blackfire Rebellion? Was that area called the Twins before then and just lacked those massive towers? Just asking.

That's adorable. Its almost like objective reality doesn't exist.

I didn't see that either. And then it happened.

I'm ... I'm slow...

Okay, considering we are unlikely to do this for about 18 months (or so) and I did NOT watch this episode early, here we go: What I liked: Queen and Mother of Dragons: Rhaenyra’s emotional roller-coaster crystalized the import of this episode: everything all at once. We first see Rhaenyra have to deal with the loss of her father, then loss of her child, then the loss of her realm. As she struggles with what to do (Spoiler: it was always war), she must both command and protect – her realm and her children. Then, just when she thought she was at her safest, her husband physically assaults her (or as they call it in Westeroes: Thursday). She is not safe and cannot keep anyone else safe. And when that finally reaches a boil she looks us dead in the eyes and announces that she will burn them all. Yes, that look was a wee bit over-the-top but it was well-earned. The story of this Queen is how her life is split between her children and her realm and how she is both attacked and forced to defend both. This is much like Viserys, but different: Viserys could afford his vacillations; he was never at war. His daughter has no such protections: she will spend the rest of her life at war. Oh, and I loved that coronation. Storm’s End’s Beginning: I liked everything about Storm’s End; I liked Lord Baratheon (and his apparent illiteracy); I liked the high-stakes game; I liked that Luke (or whichever one he was) was both unprepared but also serious; I liked how it was a constant storm and I loved that fucking seat. No King should sit comfortable and, as usual, the Baratheon’s turned it to 11, This is not a seat that will simply take an oath and be like “Yeah, we said it so guess we will follow it blindly.” No, that’s House Stark’s job. Anyway, I liked this visit to the last of the realms. Oh, and I liked that Luke seemed overwhelmed by everything. I think its an incredible pivot from the trope that merely because a child has had a few lessons or has a nice person to hang out with that they somehow become quick witted, able swordmen, and masters of the Game of Thrones (but enough about the last 2 seasons of GoT). Instead, they have a script, they try to stick to it and then they do what they can, but they are NOT in control. Luke acted like … a little kid. And that worked. A Dance of These Two Dragons: That was bad-ass!!! Okay, next! …. Okay, just kidding. Yes, it was bad ass but I think we saw – in stark terms – how dangerous actually fighting with dragons will be. And that not all dragons were created equal. Just like that, one dragon, Arax (I think) is dead. Poof… or Puff… look, I’m trying … The point being that they can be slain just like anyone else and just like that. Oh, and that Aemond and Vahgar are bad asses. But I also think it showed how susceptible- and unpredictable – the dragons are to the emotional state of their riders. The dragons either acted on instinct OR because they are tapped into the sub-conscious of their riders and acted the way they thought their riders would act. And that can make it so the dragons don’t do what the riders … “wanted” them to do. We think. Free will is suddenly more uncertain than a prophecy. But even Aemond one-eye seems … upset by this. And I get that but a part of me wants to as … “What did you think was gonna happen?!” Chasing Arax around Storm’s End will likely lead to, at best, lead to a confrontation and that, by definition is uncertain. What would have happened if wings got clipped or Arax zigged when he should have zagged? Or, you know, they start breathing fire? I get that the excuse will be “I didn’t mean it…” But you meant to go out there on a dragon and zoom past another dragon… Intent follows the Maw. The Table: Painted Table was brought into greater relief with fire. An improvement over Stannis’ “It’s a fucking Table; we sit around it!” Actually… Regardless, it was a great touch. War Council Paying Attention: I liked that the talk of troops and territories was trumped by “We have dragons.” Done and done. That is vastly more important. What I am on the fence on: Camera Closer… Closer … CLOS… We are in Rhaenyra’s Tonsils: This was the most high-concept episode in terms of the use of the camera and it was … fine… fine … ish? The camera seemed to always be tight and looking up at the character and the characters … seem almost to know it. Lots of characters with their backs to the camera; staring off at the scenery. This, to e, was too passive use of the camera for what we were actually witnessing. This was a calm within the storm, not before it. I think the camera use was misplaced. What Were You Going To Name This One: So that dead baby got a LOT of screen time, huh? Now, with that said, I think it was portrayed REALLY well and had a lot of emotional weight. She did a great job and it was pretty good. Also, kinda gross. Daemon: Starting to think he’s JUST an asshole. The Meeting on Dragon Stone … Part II: So, Otto shows up… again… on Dragonstone to face Daemon. And what did he learn from the first one? I kind of feel like that meeting could only have ended two ways – with the Hightower contingent to leave emptyhanded OR dragon roast. I feel like there was nothing else that could have happened. Don't get me wrong; I love me some Otto, but what was he hoping would happen? Unconditional surrender? Feel like they don't learn from their mistakes. And this time.. she is not on your side . . . What I Did Not Like Doubling Down on Dumb: So, in this episode, the story tried tried TRIED to justify Rhaenys’ absolutely stupid decision to not kill Aegon et al. They had her say “This is not my war.” Like her grandchildren are NOT standing a few feet away. Just ridiculous. Then we have like 15 shots of her standing in the background and not kneeling and basically trying to send the message that she is above it all. Then, the Sea Snake shows up… I guess… and he says “We will sit out this war!” And Rhaenys says, with a straight face, we can’t. FUCKING PICK ONE! Either she gets to sit on the sidelines and justify her decision Not to kill Aegon OR she gets to say how just she thinks Rhaynera is the rightful queen and throw in on them. But she cannot do this whole “One-foot-in-one-foot-out” hokey-pokey. And this NONSENSE that she did not know this would lead to war or that this is not HER war just ash to go. Its as if the showrunners did not see how dumb this was, wanted the spectacle and then realized “Oh, shit, this makes literally no sense… LET’S DOUBLE DOWN!” And they TRY to make it seem like it’s a close call OR she is undecided OR that she is above it all. Its never was; she isn’t and she’s not. And when Corlys says that he will declare for nobody, she says that Rhaenerya is the only one holding the realm together. Showing restraint… Oh, and she killed like 100 people. Down the memory hole with you! To me, this represents something I am ready, willing and able to overlook, but I am also not going to pretend it didn’t happen. Its like a bruise that will stain. You can look past it if you can, but you cannot pretend it’s not there. So stop. ANYWAY… What a great season. What an absolutely incredible correction of what we had left for dead under the Bells. This was 10 episodes of rebuilding good will with the fans and trying to reintroduce us to this land and these people. The acting was as great as anything in GoT; each episode had incredible import; the fissure started as a small crack and has since grown into a massive chasm that will swallow this realm and we all buy it. These are great characters involved in a fantastic conflict and one that is being handled with care, understanding, craftmanship and intelligence. We are lucky to have it. Oh, and Paddy should get the Emmy. Awesome season, 9 out of 10; just terrific. Loved it and will watch again.

I think that much of this discussion could have been avoided had the people on the dais acted like real people. The KG would have- irrespective of any calls to the contrary - removed the King from the Dias; the Septon and several others would have outright fled. Cole would have grabbed Alicent and done the same. If the "target rich environment" suddenly has people dispersed - and especially if the King is behind significant cover - than Rheaneys immolating people to and fro becomes far less efficient and people can escape. Even if she gets the King, if the Queen, the Queen Regent and Aemon are still alive, you still have a war. I found it unrealistic for everyone to be looking into the maw of a second-generation Dragon and thinking "Naw, it'll be fine."

That place is PACKED with people; solid stone is thrown for quite a distance and that dragon is just lurching over people. People fall into the hole, and many others are slammed with that tail. We are talking about people with no protection or armor, caught completely off guard, thrown in the air, hurled by the dragon, slammed with concrete. Then people start running for the door so any more are trampled etc. One Hundred dead is a low estimate.

Then she's a terrible person who is willing to kill people for her feelings and not kill others for those same feelings. That's Dumb.

You have to put it all together, though - once she has killed these people, she can no longer hide behind it being bloodless, or she has never killed before, or she does notw ant to hurt people etc etc etc . You are now in the realm of "Killing solves things." Things like "escaping." And "stopping a civil war," She doesn't. Why? Its Alicent. That reason is bad. She's a bad/dumb person for not doing it.

... except ... for the 100-150 she killed in the prior 30 seconds...

And it still makes no sense.

... after I just murdered like 150 innocent people... ... you keep forgetting that part. For some odd reason.

Please describe to me how the only way to save children's lives was to tell Cersei Lannister his plan? Seems like an oxymoron but I'm willing to listen...

Again, people have to stop making my case for me; I don't need the help. Ned was a vastly inexperienced player set about by veteran players. His "mistake" is that he warns somebody bc he incorrectly assumes she will realize how bad her posture is. Rhaeyns does not have this excuse. She is incredibly experienced at this. If your argument is that its okay for a very keen and aware character to act, instead, like an blissfully ignorant one ... ... well... that's one way to see things, I guess...

This is the obvious answer. And if its true (ts true, btw) its a terrible reason not to do it because you are guaranteeing that thousands die because she does not want to ... let a woman face the clear consequences of her bad actions. Alicent is acting in a manner that will kill thousands. Rhaenys can prevent it. She chooses not to. Bad move. It could cost her her life. Her grandchildren's lives; countless soldiers, lords, small folk. etc etc,

She literally just killed like 150 people to get away. She's NOT above killing people. She's committed. Its silly that you do not see this. Yet everyone is prepping for it - you yourself just said so. So she cannot say "War? Never heard of it!" And put her head in the sand. And she has not. She could now win that war. She chooses not to. Why? NOBODY has given a good answer, HAHA! Including her! For all the reasons I said above.

One way to stop it is to win it immediately. I rest my case... You said so yourself- Otto and his ilk are trying to prevent a horrible war by killing the pretenders at the outset. The assumption being that killing certain people prevents thousands more from dying ... K... Rhaenys knows that. And if she acted accordingly... war won. Lives saved. Including her grandchildren. This entire argument is if you take an action like this you PREVENT the war. Otto knows that, and your argument is either that Rhaeyns knows that also, but is somehow forgiven for not acting accordingly OR that she does not know it. Which is it? If its like a small war, she saves ten times the lives she immolates that stage. Any reasonable person would know this will not be a small war; SHE knows that. Both sides have dragons- a weapon without any reasonable peer in the World. With both sides so armed its very very reasonable to assume they will use them. Against the other. Thousands will die. The only way to prevent that is to cut the head off one of the two sides. Rhaenys had this opportunity. She did not take it. Why? Either because she is ignorant or unwilling. Either way, she should known better. That's head canon. She is literally flying to Dragonstone; she JUST married her grandchildren to Rhaeyna's children; she knows she is tied to the Princess-Queen and she has known that for like quite some time. To deny that is to deny the character as we know it. I feel like people are making excuses. The idea that she did not know is an excuse that is a slap in the face to the character.

But everyone who we get near seems to think it will lead to war; people are preparing for war; Viserys feared it would lead to war; Hightower acts like its leading to war. Rhaenys is far too smart to claim ignorance; she cannot be this smart and say "War? What's that? No, it won't lead to that!" No. She knows; everyone seems to know. Her defenders besmirch this great character by trying to paint her as ignorant.

Okay, that's fair. What I meant as to "playing for keeps" was that she knows what is going on and to maximize her supposed output. Think of it as game theory for a Game of Thrones. To me, playing for keeps means that you are actually playing the Game and you are trying to win something, not necessarily the biggest throne. So, with Rhaenys, she is maxing her family's power and influence she tries to get her daughter married to the King and when that fails she tries to get her son married to the Queen. And when she sees the opportunity to pull a small powerplay on her dumb brother-in-law, she does, accepting a marriage of her grandchildren to Rahenera's children. Further, that Rhaenys knows what is going on and the impact of what various things mean. For instance, when your house has thrown in with the Queen Apparent (not "presumptive"), and they crown SOMEBODY ELSE as King ... you have a war on your hands. So, for me, I think Rhaenys should have known that the war was already on. Rhaeyns has always seemed to know how this game goes. That's what I mean. I did not mean - and should have said it clearer - that Rhaenys is looking for any excuse to claim the throne etc. But ... She should have known.

Just to reiterate what Ser Scott said: if I am driving my car and I plow through a crowd of people, there is still criminal liability that attaches even if I try to mitigate it with something like, "But somebody was chasing me." At all times, people must act reasonably, under the circumstances and Rhaenys knew or should have known that her actions would cause people to die. Manslaughter is killing somebody in the heat of passion (usually) and then there is Involuntary" Manslaughter wherein you engage in a course of conduct that leads to the death of people, but you never intended anyone to be hurt. And the classic case there is the Boston "Coconut Grove Fire." IN that case a night club was celebrating a Boston College football victory when a fire broke out; the club owner had decorations and other obstacles in the way of the doors (I have also heard- but never verified - that the club still had doors that opened inward, so when the fire started people could not push them open- but that may be an urban legend). The result was that nearly 500 people were killed. The owner of the night club violated all sorts of laws; but he didn't start the fire nor do anything directly against the victims. Christ, he was not even in the club that night, recovering from surgery in a hospital room. He was still charged and convicted of involuntary manslaughter. I don't know if anyone is still reading ... ... regardless, she would be guilty of most likely second degree murder - extreme atrocity with malice aforethought. However, lets look at your point because I think you make a good one which is that she is trying to escape and I give her credit for that. But ... is her escape worth that much death? I feel like if Meleys had burned three guards and toppled a few roofs in her escape, that would be okay. But this was wanton murder of people that were just there and it has to make a reasonable person somewhat angry at her. And this is my problem as well- this is not in-character for a woman who really was always playing for keeps. She had a golden opportunity to end a war before it began. The reasons on-line are just like "This was actually a good thing..." and all I can think is "Well... yeah if you are not the ones who have to fight in this dumb war..." Then its shit. MY theory is that nothing will happen to her. Somebody wills ay "Why didn't you kill them," and she will say "And be cursed as a kinslayer!!!" And that will be it and that's RELALY sad because the will all now be kinslayers. All of it could have been avoided. And you had another point, namely that the war has not started and nobody wants to do anything rash, and I can see that too, but only to a point. The reality is that the Blacks are behind and need to do rash acts to catch up. BTW in the "Coming Attractions" for next week, one of the first things they plan to do is besiege King's Landing... guaranteeing that many many more people will die. And because of all this, something has to be done about Aegoin's children's anyway, so its not like they will be spared regardless. Hooray... I am just seeing a lot of Rhaenys apologists on many of the web pages and I think its judicious; they say "It would have weakened House Taragryen..." or "It would have caused chaos." I think the opposite; if Rhaenys BBQs the King, Queen, Hand, Queen regent, KG, Aemond, and yeah the High Septon, she ends the war. YEs, Aemon's other children are alive, but NOBODY is going to use them for years. She would have lopped off the head of the Greens and left a massive power vacuum that had an easy and available filler: Rhaenyra. Rhaeynra would have flown back to KL, taken up residence in the Red Keep, summoned her own small counsel made up of those loyal to her and immediately begun haranguing the Greens as Usurpers and traitors to her Father's word; she would have welcomed into the Queen's peace anyone who may have bent the knee to Aegon, and dealt with the members of the small counsel as she saw fit. She then would have said that Princess Rhaeyns was under "house arrest" on Driftmark until they could investigate what happened, then quietly clear her of any wrongdoing. She spends the next 5 years working on bringing the Hightowers back into the peace. MEanwhile she has dragons, armies, money and a realm without an enemy. In other words... war: averted. The reality is that once you are in for a penny, you are in for a pound. If you are going to FIGHT this war ... why not, instead, win it?

I find it weird that you think that was an "accident." There is a difference between wanton/reckless behavior and an accident. She knew or should have known that if she breaks through a the floor that thousands of people are standing on with a dragon... people are going to die. And she killed them. Its either murder or manslaughter. Either way, she's terrible for doing that and any attempt to mitigate it is "whataboutism." And btw - many of us thought Larys was a shit for killing his own brother and father and said so. No, no- its perfectly reasonable when you escape to kill hundreds of people. Its totally cool. See, if that was the end of it - if she was really that way - then I would be okay with it. I would get that she would need to escape. But she then faces down the enemy and ... what? She has a chance to end the whole war, save all her grandchildren and ensure her and her family's safety. She does not "kill or be killed" So which is it? Is she "kill or be killed" or is she wise and merciful (who had just killed like 150 innocent people)? You can have one or the other, but not both. I think the show wanted it to be both. And that's bad storytelling.

When... when you're 47?

That's worse.

But my point was only that in 1964 people thought X. I'm trying to show how people back then hoped that if he won, the job would change him. I'm not trying to say that Goldwater was not THAT bad (he ... he may still have been but not my argument); just that he clearly worried people in 1964. The messages he spouted needed MASSIVE refinement; he was not capable of doing that. In 1968, Richard Nixon refined them to win back-to-back elections; 8 years later, Ronald Reagan refined them even more. Goldwater was not capable of refinement (my whole point); the messages were. Which is why from 1968-1992, this country elected ONE Democrat as President. Crazy.