Song of Heartbreak and Rejection !

[Feliciano69]

So, I've been thinking for a while about a theme I found fascinating about the series, which actually made me wonder wether George R.R. Martin had difficult experiences with romantic rejection.

The whole notion comes mainly from Sandor Clegane, Petyr Baelish and Jorah Mormont.

They all share a strong, almost obsessive desire for another woman who doesn't reciprocate their affection.

I feel confident those aren't the only cases I've noticed it, but those are the three quickest to come off my head, I guess I could count Orell from the TV series as well, but that seems like a whole different deal nonetheless.

In any case, what do you good people think ?

[Raven in Winter]

Haven't we all had our share of romantic ups and downs? I'm sure most good writers, GRRM definitely included, draws from personal experiences when writing emotional material.

[Feliciano69]

Haven't we all had our share of romantic ups and downs? I'm sure most good writers, GRRM definitely included, draws from personal experiences when writing emotional material.

They seem so similar though, and he has so many of these plotlines which seem to repeat themselves over and over.

[Annara Snow]

So, I've been thinking for a while about a theme I found fascinating about the series, which actually made me wonder wether George R.R. Martin had difficult experiences with romantic rejection.

The whole notion comes mainly from Sandor Clegane, Petyr Baelish and Jorah Mormont.

They all share a strong, almost obsessive desire for another woman who doesn't reciprocate their affection.

I feel confident those aren't the only cases I've noticed it, but those are the three quickest to come off my head, I guess I could count Orell from the TV series as well, but that seems like a whole different deal nonetheless.

In any case, what do you good people think ?

Which woman does Sandor feel obsessive desire for who doesn't reciprocate his affection? I don't think he was interested in anyone other than Sansa.

If you really need a third case of obsessive unrequited love that's not LF or Jorah - how about the obvious one, Lysa?

[Raven in Winter]

They seem so similar though, and he has so many of these plotlines which seem to repeat themselves over and over.

I think it's more along the lines of, "This isn't your childhood fairy tales, the prince doesn't always get the fair princess, and the good guy, more often than not, fails.". At least that's what I take from it anyway, it just goes with his writing style. It also kind of makes you a little sympathetic to the "bad guy" characters, seeing how they suffered and all.

[Lady Kelsey]

I think it's more along the lines of, "This isn't your childhood fairy tales, the prince doesn't always get the fair princess, and the good guy, more often than not, fails.". At least that's what I take from it anyway, it just goes with his writing style. It also kind of makes you a little sympathetic to the "bad guy" characters, seeing how they suffered and all.

Agree! It's hard not to sympathize with the guys who are supposed to be "evil."

[Feliciano69]

Which woman does Sandor feel obsessive desire for who doesn't reciprocate his affection? I don't think he was interested in anyone other than Sansa.

If you really need a third case of obsessive unrequited love that's not LF or Jorah - how about the obvious one, Lysa?

Yeah, I was referring to Sandor and Sansa actually.

Another one that came to mind is Robert and Lyanna for example, though Lyanna never openly rejected him; in the same manner it seems pretty similar to me in the case of Lysa, was she ever rejected by Littlefinger as well ?

[Annara Snow]

Yeah, I was referring to Sandor and Sansa actually.

But you said "a strong, almost obsessive desire for another woman who doesn't reciprocate their affection." How can that be referring to Sandor and Sansa?

[Cruella]

Yes, it's one of his themes. See "Song For Lya" and "MeatHouse Man" and another short story which name I forgot for more (if you haven't already).

[Winter's Knight]

It seems to me that theme is less unreciprocated love and more "obsessive love is bad and unhealthy and will only make you miserable and creepy".

Speaking of creepy, the guy who takes my pizza order tried to hit on me today. :ack:

[Daenyra]

Nothing more heartbreaking for me than Brienne's imposable love for Renly. Even if he was into women, she is still ugly.

Sorry, but Littlefinger and Jorah are obsessed creeps, not to mention real psychos in Littlefinger's case. There is a difference between an unhealthy attachment turning into obsession and unrequited love. Griff's love for Rhaegar is a more fitting example for the later. As well as Barristan's infatuation with Ashara Dayne and the Rhaelle and ser Bonifer Hasty tragic story. :crying:

[Winter's Knight]

Nothing more heartbreaking for me than Brienne's imposable love for Renly. Even if he was into women, she is still ugly.

Sorry, but Littlefinger and Jorah are obsessed creeps, not to mention real psychos in Littlefinger's case. There is a difference between an unhealthy attachment turning into obsession and unrequited love. Griff's love for Rhaegar is a more fitting example for the later. As well as Barristan's infatuation with Ashara Dayne and the Rhaelle and ser Bonifer Hasty tragic story. :crying:

Yes. Thank you. That is love people, not "I will isolate you from every other male you know" or "I will destroy your whole family because I love you".

[Feliciano69]

But you said "a strong, almost obsessive desire for another woman who doesn't reciprocate their affection." How can that be referring to Sandor and Sansa?

I don't believe the SanSan thing...........too much rape fantasy for my taste.

Nothing more heartbreaking for me than Brienne's imposable love for Renly. Even if he was into women, she is still ugly.

Sorry, but Littlefinger and Jorah are obsessed creeps, not to mention real psychos in Littlefinger's case. There is a difference between an unhealthy attachment turning into obsession and unrequited love. Griff's love for Rhaegar is a more fitting example for the later. As well as Barristan's infatuation with Ashara Dayne and the Rhaelle and ser Bonifer Hasty tragic story. :crying:

You can't compare Jorah and Littlefinger like that though, if I personally put them together in the same lot it's because both have suffered devastating rejection; but the nature of Littlefinger's "love" is quite different from Jorah's.

And I can hardly see how Jorah is a creep, only Daenerys fans could say things like that :lol:

[Annara Snow]

I don't believe the SanSan thing...........too much rape fantasy for my taste.

i'm not sure what you mean. What does it mean "the SanSan thing"? That they will get together and live happily ever after? Not many people believe that..

But if you're saying that you don't want to believe that Sansa totally has the hots for the Hound, that's not really something you can choose not to believe... what's there in the text is there. We do have her POV chapters, you know. :lol:

I'm not getting your "rape fantasy" thing either. What rape fantasy? If she were into that kind of thing she'd be fantasizing about Marillion, Joffrey, the men in the crowd in KL, Tyrion, or Littlefinger. :ack:

[Winter's Knight]

i'm not sure what you mean. What does it mean "the SanSan thing"? That they will get together and live happily ever after? Not many people believe that..

But if you're saying that you don't want to believe that Sansa totally has the hots for the Hound, that's not really something you can choose not to believe... what's there in the text is there. We do have her POV chapters, you know. :lol:

I'm not getting your "rape fantasy" thing either. What rape fantasy? If she were into that kind of thing she'd be fantasizing about Marillion, Joffrey, the men in the crowd in KL, Tyrion, or Littlefinger. :ack:

Besides, Dany/Drogo plays the Rape is Love much better.

ETA erm, I meant falls much closer to the trope than SanSan.

[Daenyra]

Feliciano69,

Jorah first likes Daenerys, because she looks like his wife (ok, she's also brave and honourable), with whom he has some unresolved issues (to put it mildly), and when Daenerys rejects him with good reason, we find him in a brothel with a prostitute who looks like said wife/Daenerys- if that is not creepy, I don't know what is! He has developed a Valiryna fetish or something. I am a Targaryen fan, but not a Daenerys fan. :lol: She is infuriating and boring at the same time.

Littlefinger was never in love with Catelyn, he was in love with the prospect of marring the daughter of Hoster Tully and becoming someone important. If he loved her, he would have helped her and her family. He didn't. He betrayed his "love" many times. Normal people do not react that way when they are rejected. They let the person go and in time, after they grieve, they want them to be happy. But Littlefinger is not normal, is he? He is tarnishing Catelyn's reputation in the capital even before he has a chance to destroy her. He is also using the story of "your mom used the be the lady of my heart" to gain Sansa's trust, because he knows she is romantic and naive. It's stage one in grooming a potential victim- the pity-play. :frown5:

Now compare these reactions to unrequited love with Brienne's devotion... :crying:

[Tynned Lannistark]

I agree the Jorah is a creep.

I don't agree that LF does not really love Cat. it is true he is betraying her , but that just the kind of sleezeball he is.

If just wanted Hoster Tully's daughter he had one who was willing to do anything in the world for him. And she did eventually made him someone important. He still chose to kill her, and the last words he said to her were "Only Cat".

I think the main difference between creeps like LF and Jorah and people who experience a nobler sense of love is what they do in favor of their loved ones, as opposed to just being obsessive about them.

Jorah claims to love Dany, but he also betrays her, almost gets her killed.

LF claims to love Cat, but he gets her entire family killed, than tries to bed her under aged daughter.

Lysa Tully is also kind of creepy with the way she treats LF.

Robert also falls into that category claiming to love Lyanna without ever really knowing who she is. he claims to love her 16 years after she is dead and he hardly can remember anything about her.

Brienn , Baristan - those are good examples of how someone who really loves behaves.

Even Sandor tries to help Sansa, and when she refuses he doesn't hurt her.

BTW, regarding LF tarnishing Cat's name - I think he really believed he slept with her.

[protar]

Well stable romantic relationships tend to be pretty boring. You can have two characters being lovey dovey, but it's hard to make a plot of it without some conflict - even if it's external conflict that they need to beat together.

[Gordon Ramsay Snow]

Everyone has forgotten poor Tristfer Botley :(

[Winter's Knight]

Everyone has forgotten poor Tristfer Botley :(

Boy needs to look up the word "no".