Benjen as coldhands

[jon stark I]

We know Coldhands has dark eyes and not the blue eyes of a wight.

The red god's resurrections of the dead are different than the wights... which coldhands is a wight... undead rather than formerly dead.

BR warging into coldhands, the elk and the ravens would actually work. I can't find a thing that would exclude it. However, he seems to have companions as well as his warging and leaf seems to think that BR and the ranger are distinct persons.

So who resurrected Coldhands and how there are no red priests we know of.Thoros only gave the kiss to Beric Mel never mentioned giving it to anyone so who resurrected Coldhands it can't be BR he can't leave the cave and wights or any kind of undead can't pass through caves door.So how could he be alive.If BR warged him then those laws of wargs about not warging to a human might be that not warging to a living body and warging a dead one is okey to do.But if BR warged him why wouldn't he tell Bran about it in the first place?

So back to the main question how did Coldhands got resurrected?Even to warg a body someone needs to be closer the distance thing only works for their familiars other then their familiars distance is important.

[stateofdissipation]

So who resurrected Coldhands and how there are no red priests we know of.Thoros only gave the kiss to Beric Mel never mentioned giving it to anyone so who resurrected Coldhands it can't be BR he can't leave the cave and wights or any kind of undead can't pass through caves door.So how could he be alive.If BR warged him then those laws of wargs about not warging to a human might be that not warging to a living body and warging a dead one is okey to do.But if BR warged him why wouldn't he tell Bran about it in the first place?

So back to the main question how did Coldhands got resurrected?Even to warg a body someone needs to be closer the distance thing only works for their familiars other then their familiars distance is important.

I just do not have anything solid that precludes it... but it does seem highly unlikely... BR warged a wight.. its elk... and its ravens does not seem likely.

[Ser Greg of House House]

So who resurrected Coldhands and how there are no red priests we know of.Thoros only gave the kiss to Beric Mel never mentioned giving it to anyone so who resurrected Coldhands it can't be BR he can't leave the cave and wights or any kind of undead can't pass through caves door.So how could he be alive.If BR warged him then those laws of wargs about not warging to a human might be that not warging to a living body and warging a dead one is okey to do.But if BR warged him why wouldn't he tell Bran about it in the first place?

So back to the main question how did Coldhands got resurrected?Even to warg a body someone needs to be closer the distance thing only works for their familiars other then their familiars distance is important.

We don't know how powerful Bloodraven is. Though I don't think he's warging Coldhands, it's certainly a possibility. He's a demigod, his powers are probably much greater than that of a regular skinchanger/warg.

[jon stark I]

I just do not have anything solid that precludes it... but it does seem highly unlikely... BR warged a wight.. its elk... and its ravens does not seem likely.

Thats what I think too but Varamyr warged six different animal at the same time.I still don't think warging is possible but we can't shut that door completely too.

[Northernmonkey]

Our way is down. You miúst come with me now

Bran shivered again, 'the ranger'

He cannot come.

They'll kill him.

No, they killed him long ago.

Does that sound like a history lesson.... or don't worry about that?

The same speaker put her life in the context of history....born in the time of the dragon. Leaf is not 200.. Leaf walked the world of men for 200 years and then came back home.... We do not know the age at the start or how long ago the return was.

Notably the speaker did not say 'he died when I was young`

I understand what you're trying to say but I don't think it makes sense.

When Leaf says "they killed him long ago" it seems very likely that she means a lot more than 2 or 3 years ago. The fact that leaf is 200 years old makes it very unlikely that she would refer to 2 or 3 years as "long ago".

If you want to believe that Coldhands is Benjen then fair enough, but to me the phrase "they killed him long ago" seems cut and dry. If Coldhands was Benjen then GRRM would have just said "they've already killed him" or something like that.

[stateofdissipation]

I understand what you're trying to say but I don't think it makes sense.

When Leaf says "they killed him long ago" it seems very likely that she means a lot more than 2 or 3 years ago. The fact that leaf is 200 years old makes it very unlikely that she would refer to 2 or 3 years as "long ago".

If you want to believe that Coldhands is Benjen then fair enough, but to me the phrase "they killed him long ago" seems cut and dry. If Coldhands was Benjen then GRRM would have just said "they've already killed him" or something like that.

THEY (the wights) killed him.. Before 3 years ago the Others and their wights were an 8000 year old myth. That seems pretty cut and dry too...

and say I was in the army for 20 years does that make me 20? Leaf wandered the world of men for 200 years and then came back home does that make him 200?

[Northernmonkey]

THEY (the wights) killed him.. Before 3 years ago the Others and their wights were an 8000 year old myth. That seems pretty cut and dry too...

and say I was in the army for 20 years does that make me 20? Leaf wandered the world of men for 200 years and then came back home does that make him 200?

Well if the Others haven't been around for 8000 years then that suggests that he was killed a very long time ago.

And Leaf is at least 200 years old, so it's very unlikely that she would refer to 2 or 3 years as a long time.

[FittleLinger]

Well if the Others haven't been around for 8000 years then that suggests that he was killed a very long time ago.

And Leaf is at least 200 years old, so it's very unlikely that she would refer to 2 or 3 years as a long time.

Again, I'm going to repeat I really don't know or don't want CH to be Benjen. It's just that this argument is not as strong as people imply.

It all depends on the context.

I'm 24. If a friend says, "Hey, can I grab a beer from the fridge?", and I say, "Dude, I finished it long ago" I probably mean something in a vicinity of a few hours-few days and not a few years.

Same here, Bran is saying they will kill him right now, as in minutes, an hour at most. In this context, it makes sense to say, "They killed him long ago" (years). It is just another way of saying "He's already dead".

Including Leaf's age in this context is not as inevitable as some people seem to think.

[stateofdissipation]

Well if the Others haven't been around for 8000 years then that suggests that he was killed a very long time ago.

And Leaf is at least 200 years old, so it's very unlikely that she would refer to 2 or 3 years as a long time.

so you are holding that Coldhands and the wights outside the cave 8000 years old?

Our way is down. You miúst come with me now

Bran shivered again, 'the ranger'

He cannot come.

They'll (wights will) kill him.(Now)

No (not now), they (wights) killed him long ago (before now)

Long ago is relative... Relative to the life of Leaf or Relative to the concerns that leaf was talking about.

They (the wights) provide the context for long ago. 8000 years ago or 3 years ago? Leaf is very old but refers to her people doing things 10,000 years ago (not herself). It is safe to assume that Leaf was not around 8000 years ago to know how the 8000 plus year old Coldhands was killed.

[GHOSTSTARK]

if Coldhands is Benjen why cant he pass beneath the wall? seems to predictable to be Benjen so i think GRRM will take a completely different angle to that

[Northernmonkey]

Again, I'm going to repeat I really don't know or don't want CH to be Benjen. It's just that this argument is not as strong as people imply.

It all depends on the context.

I'm 24. If a friend says, "Hey, can I grab a beer from the fridge?", and I say, "Dude, I finished it long ago" I probably mean something in a vicinity of a few hours-few days and not a few years.

Same here, Bran is saying they will kill him right now, as in minutes, an hour at most. In this context, it makes sense to say, "They killed him long ago" (years). It is just another way of saying "He's already dead".

Including Leaf's age in this context is not as inevitable as some people seem to think.

I know that technically it would still be correct to say long ago meaning a few years, but it would be a strange way of saying it, and the implication is that Leaf means a lot longer than that. You've got to remember that GRRM's a very skilled writer, so why would he include a phrase that was going to mislead people? Why not just say "he's already dead" or "they've already killed him"? If I use your beer example, when you say "dude, I finished it long ago," you could technically mean a few minutes, but the implication is that you drank it hours ago, if not longer.

The clear implication in that quote is that Coldhands died a very long time ago. We could argue about semantics all day, but if you use your common sense and trust in GRRM's writing then it's very unlikely that Leaf was just talking about 2 or 3 years.

[stateofdissipation]

if Coldhands is Benjen why cant he pass beneath the wall? seems to predictable to be Benjen so i think GRRM will take a completely different angle to that

Coldhands is a wight and wights cannot pass the same as the three-eyed crow's cave.

what unpredictable things has GRRM done?

Benjen appeared very early in book one. Then he was gone. He gets mentioned from time to time. He either survived book 1 and has been absent since or he died in book one. If he died in book 1 he is a wight like the rest of his men. If Benjen is a wight known as coldhands he has been in 3 books and played a significant role in helping in the war against the others.

If Benjen is alive and has something to contribute to the war on the Others, all his contributions and an important part of the war with the others has taken place off page. In short a non-character determines the fate of the characters in the book. When all hope is lost, the long lost uncle shows up and saves the day. That is pretty lame.

[Northernmonkey]

so you are holding that Coldhands and the wights outside the cave 8000 years old?

Not necessarily. I think there probably have been White Walkers around more recently than 8000 years ago, so he might not be 8000 years old. But I don't think Coldhands was killed in the last few years.

They (the wights) provide the context for long ago. 8000 years ago or 3 years ago? Leaf is very old but refers to her people doing things 10,000 years ago (not herself). It is safe to assume that Leaf was not around 8000 years ago to know how the 8000 plus year old Coldhands was killed.

Well she wasn't around at the time, but it's not hard to work out that he was killed by wights. Leaf doesn't need to have been there at the time to know how Coldhands died.

[stateofdissipation]

I know that technically it would still be correct to say long ago meaning a few years, but it would be a strange way of saying it, and the implication is that Leaf means a lot longer than that. You've got to remember that GRRM's a very skilled writer, so why would he include a phrase that was going to mislead people? Why not just say "he's already dead" or "they've already killed him"? If I use your beer example, when you say "dude, I finished it long ago," you could technically mean a few minutes, but the implication is that you drank it hours ago, if not longer.

The clear implication in that quote is that Coldhands died a very long time ago. We could argue about semantics all day, but if you use your common sense and trust in GRRM's writing then it's very unlikely that Leaf was just talking about 2 or 3 years.

there is a completely valid argument fot either side of the long ago debate....

However, They (the wights) killing coldhands only have 2 possibilites.... in the last 3 years and 8000 years ago. So is coldhands 3 or less years undead or over 8000?

[Northernmonkey]

there is a completely valid argument fot either side of the long ago debate....

However, They (the wights) killing coldhands only have 2 possibilites.... in the last 3 years and 8000 years ago. So is coldhands 3 or less years undead or over 8000?

I kind of addressed this above. I think there probably have been white walkers around in the last 8000 years, in the far North at least. If not then he must be 8000 years old. Both options would make sense.

[siknes]

I think Coldhands is Ben. He wears the black still, and if he died long ago-over ten years-his cloak would be more like the wildlings-- tattered, and discolored. CH knows Bran, not just his name.

My overall theory is Benjen learned/realized his warg powers long ago, when ranging. He is contacted by the Old Gods, and makes a deal to thwart the Others. He brings/leads the Direwolf mama+the white pup south of the wall and using his warged stag kills mama, so the Stark kids can have protection and awaken their inner warg. Benjen sacrifices himself to become a self aware Whit-hence it is much easier to survive the long stint alone beyond the Wall.

Yes Benjen is first ranger, but the long time frame makes it unrealistic to survive, without human or Old God help.

[FittleLinger]

I know that technically it would still be correct to say long ago meaning a few years, but it would be a strange way of saying it, and the implication is that Leaf means a lot longer than that. You've got to remember that GRRM's a very skilled writer, so why would he include a phrase that was going to mislead people? Why not just say "he's already dead" or "they've already killed him"? If I use your beer example, when you say "dude, I finished it long ago," you could technically mean a few minutes, but the implication is that you drank it hours ago, if not longer.

The clear implication in that quote is that Coldhands died a very long time ago. We could argue about semantics all day, but if you use your common sense and trust in GRRM's writing then it's very unlikely that Leaf was just talking about 2 or 3 years.

True, it can go both ways so it's pointless, it's valid in both cases. What is more interesting that could support the equalness of those cases (and not that the really long ago is the much more valid one). In the previous sentence, Leaf says that she learned the common tongue only because of Bran. So that could mean that she is using the "long ago" in Bran terms as well.

And another thing - if he died so long ago, were they not communicating with Leaf, as she didn't know the common tongue that long ago.

[stateofdissipation]

I kind of addressed this above. I think there probably have been white walkers around in the last 8000 years, in the far North at least. If not then he must be 8000 years old. Both options would make sense.

You did addess it. The idea that long ago is said in terms of Leaf's lifespan is also conjecture. So is the idea that long ago means not right now. The timeframe of the wights is not a guess or a feeling. It was introduced as established fact to assist in determining which guess is more likely.

The intermittent wights killing Rangers of the Nights Watch is conjecture. The description of Coldhand's beltbuckle, the chain around his neck, and his sharp facial features are also conjecture. Neither clarifies the meaning of the disputed passages.

[siknes]

Northernmonkey

Yes, GRRM is a skilled writer, who likes to use double meanings in his writing. Ergo-we debate over the truth, given the facts written. Although I don't think he ever intended to start war of the words on fan posts like Westeros.org.

[stateofdissipation]

Not necessarily. I think there probably have been White Walkers around more recently than 8000 years ago, so he might not be 8000 years old. But I don't think Coldhands was killed in the last few years.

Well she wasn't around at the time, but it's not hard to work out that he was killed by wights. Leaf doesn't need to have been there at the time to know how Coldhands died.

I stand corrected good nothern monkey. 8000 year old Coldhands could have told his tale. I do apologize for the false dilemma.

Without more speculation...which i try to keep to a minumum... 3 and 8000 are the options.

Notably false dilemmas are a major pitfall of conjecture. In the scenario I gave the age of Leaf was the conjecture that lead to the false dilemma.