Chebyshov Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Can you point me to the post? I must have missed it, It was about the decision to appoint Jaime to the KG, but it's tenuous at best. Really the issue of Aerys attending the tourney was that Rhaeger's [supposed] plans to remove Aerys from power (or at least deal with him) were thwarted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Shaggydog Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I also think that even if we are confirmed that Aerys did something offensive at Harrenhall - but he was Aerys II Targaryen - getting up in the morning was most likely an offensive act, and much more so when he travels to this tourney on the premise that his son is plotting to overthrow him. So it didn't have to necessarily be a rape - he probably offended every person he saw in turn, a la Joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 No, where is it stated in the the books that Aerys did something terrible at Harrenhall? I genuinely can't remember it.How about you go look for yourself? It is a Barristan POV I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 I also think that even if we are confirmed that Aerys did something offensive at Harrenhall - but he was Aerys II Targaryen - getting up in the morning was most likely an offensive act, and much more so when he travels to this tourney on the premise that his son is plotting to overthrow him. So it didn't have to necessarily be a rape - he probably offended every person he saw in turn, a la Joffrey.Ha ha yes. No guarantee the offensive thing was a rape.Still, it could have been. Did you see the scenario I gave a few posts back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 How about you go look for yourself? It is a Barristan POV I think. So you present a theory, refuse to provide quotes and then throw your toys out of the pram. ok then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 So you present a theory, refuse to provide quotes and then throw your toys out of the pram. ok then.So you endlessly antagonize but offer nothing of interest. Ok then. :) If you don't like the theory, go away to a different thread. Bickering about proof is incredibly boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 How about you go look for yourself? It is a Barristan POV I think. I did a search through a pdf of ADWD and couldn't find any implication that Aerys did anything bad at the tourney, other than potentially thwart Rhaegar's plans. We also know he was paranoid about TKotLT, but there's nothing to imply he did anything particularly violent. Could I be searching in the wrong book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 So you endlessly antagonize but offer nothing of interest. Ok then. :)If you don't like the theory, go away to a different thread. Bickering about proof is incredibly boring. I've asked you repeatedly to offer some proof of something you claim to be as fact in order to justify what is a quite farfetched theory. As for offering nothing of interest, my posts would beg to differ. If you are going to post a theory on an online discussion forum then prepared to be questioned on it's legitimacy. If not then maybe it's best you keep it to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousmoose Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Brandon spoke to Ashara for Ned, but because he's kind of an ass, he probably went for it with Ashara anyway, even knowing his little brother liked her (and being betrothed). I'm just saying it's more fitting with Brandon's character to dishonor her than Ned's, and Barristan's accounts all purposely keep it vague with "Stark." At what point in the books is Brandon Stark confused with Robert Baratheon? Brandon was more of a warrior than Ned but he wasn't a frequenter of brothels or a whoremonger.....I am sorry but your conclusion of Brandon Stark is severely lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 At what point in the books is Brandon Stark confused with Robert Baratheon? Brandon was more of a warrior than Ned but he wasn't a frequenter of brothels or a whoremonger.....I am sorry but your conclusion of Brandon Stark is severely lacking. "Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I’d later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden’s blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain. “The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon’s brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 I did a search through a pdf of ADWD and couldn't find any implication that Aerys did anything bad at the tourney, other than potentially thwart Rhaegar's plans. We also know he was paranoid about TKotLT, but there's nothing to imply he did anything particularly violent. Could I be searching in the wrong book?It was something along the lines of "and oh what sorrow and carnage might have been avoided if Aerys had not gone to Harrenhal"These are not the exact words because I don't have photographic memory. But the implication was that something Aerys did at Harrenhal was a key factor in the events that led to the war, and that the war might have been avoided if Aerys had not attended.Since Rahegar likely would have chosen Lyanna regardless of Aerys's attendance, that can't be the issue. We can only speculate what the issue actually was.Some have proposed Jamie was the issue. It is possible, but not strong since Jamie in any case planned to join the KG.If anyone has other ideas I would be curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousmoose Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 We also have the instance of Catelyn mentioning Ashara Dayne's name to Ned once, and only once, because he strongly forbade anyone in his castle from speaking of that rumor. So it was certainly a rumor with some traction, to have traveled around the 7 Kingdoms (Harrenhal, Starfall, Winterfell) - but we don't get much in the way of confirmation either way since it is assumed Ned isn't shutting down the rumor out of shame, but rather out of another motive to shut down any and all rumors around Jon's birth. It would probably be useful to pull the text of the Meera mention, Barristan mention, Catelyn mention, and then compare it with whatever theory the OP is posting. There has to be some textual references to support a theory, but I don't see anything suggesting an Aerys/Ashara combination. Not saying its untrue - but I just don't see Aerys raping Ashara when his best KG knight is her brother. Disrespecting Tywin directly was one thing, we understand his motivation, and he had Cersei at court, and then took Jaime to court as well so he could pretty much do with Tywin what he pleased, but thats not the case for the Daynes.Very true but only relevent if you perceive Ashara to be Jon's mother, as that was context in to which it was presented to Ned.....I don't think Ned's honor would allow him to shut down a rumor that was true.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 "Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one Id later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maidens blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain. The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandons brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me.I think this story is interesting but for very different reasons.There is reason to believe that lady Dustin is actually a secret Stark loyalist pretending to be an ally of the Boltons. If true, the story might be somewhat exaggerated in order to support Bolton's trust in her allegiance.She says this to Reek, knowing Reek is Ramsay's creature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousmoose Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 "Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I’d later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden’s blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain. “The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon’s brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me.” So he fell in love? There is a large canyon between that and claiming whatever appeals to your eye. A fourteen year old Lyanna could see that and did. I think using this as an example to explain a rape of Ashara at Harenhall is grotesque and unfounded. What you are suggesting is that he set his younger brother up with a women....and then proceeded to rape her. Your conclusion is completely unfounded and as far as the canon is concerned a disgusting notion in its entirety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 So he fell in love? There is a large canyon between that and claiming whatever appeals to your eye. A fourteen year old Lyanna could see that and did. I think using this as an example to explain a rape of Ashara at Harenhall is grotesque and unfounded. What you are suggesting is that he set his younger brother up with a women....and then proceeded to rape her. Your conclusion is completely unfounded and as far as the canon is concerned a disgusting notion in its entirety. I never said Ashara was raped. I'm guessing that she and Brandon had consensual sex. I also never said he fell in love. Brandon asked her to dance with Ned on Ned's behalf (the Shy Wolf), but then met up with her later, because he's kind of portrayed as an ass. Edit: the reason I pulled the quote that I did was to show that Brandon is characterized as the kind of guy who would happily"dishonor" (by Barry's standards) a woman. He's definitely not portrayed as a rapist...Lady Dustin was a willing participant. I'm just trying to explain why I think it's more likely he's Ashara's babydaddy and not Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousmoose Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 So he fell in love? There is a large canyon between that and claiming whatever appeals to your eye. A fourteen year old Lyanna could see that and did. I think using this as an example to explain a rape of Ashara at Harenhall is grotesque and unfounded. What you are suggesting is that he set his younger brother up with a women....and then proceeded to rape her. Your conclusion is completely unfounded and as far as the canon is concerned a disgusting notion in its entirety.It was something along the lines of "and oh what sorrow and carnage might have been avoided if Aerys had not gone to Harrenhal"These are not the exact words because I don't have photographic memory. But the implication was that something Aerys did at Harrenhal was a key factor in the events that led to the war, and that the war might have been avoided if Aerys had not attended.Since Rahegar likely would have chosen Lyanna regardless of Aerys's attendance, that can't be the issue. We can only speculate what the issue actually was.Some have proposed Jamie was the issue. It is possible, but not strong since Jamie in any case planned to join the KG.If anyone has other ideas I would be curious.I apologize but once again Aerys' act at Harrenhall was Jaime...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousmoose Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I apologize but once again Aerys' act at Harrenhall was Jaime...... I never said Ashara was raped. I'm guessing that she and Brandon had consensual sex. I also never said he fell in love. Brandon asked her to dance with Ned on Ned's behalf (the Shy Wolf), but then met up with her later, because he's kind of portrayed as an ass. I get that but as of thus far we have no reason to think Brandon would break his vows. Also he is screwing over Ned, and from Ned's description I dont think Brandon would dishonpr him like that That screams unbelievable. I agree with Ashara not being raped though. If she is Dornish someone is coming down with her. But no one did.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 I apologize but once again Aerys' act at Harrenhall was Jaime......Ok, if you are so sure, then explain how, because it makes no sense.1. Jamie volunteered for the KG because Cersei asked him to, and he would have joined regardless of Harrenhal.2. Aerys offending Tywin did not have anything to do with starting the war. Tywin didn't even join it until the end. So naming Jamie to the KG had no importance to the Starks, Baratheons, Arryns and Tullys, ie. those who did start the rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 Arthur Dayne is an interesting counter-point. But if you think about it, that might actually support the theory.Aerys named Jamie to the Kingsguard in part to make him a hostage. What if he already considered Dayne to be somewhat of a hostage? Sure, he was his best knight, but he was only one knight and if he had commanded the others to kill Dayne they would have, even if many of them also died carrying out the order.So let's speculate Aerys raped Ashara at Harrenhal, Dayne could do nothing about it because Aerys was King, and then after the entire realm witnessed this, THEN Aerys named Jamie to the Kingsguard with the implication that he would also be powerless to help his family? This after hinting he would also like to rape Joanna Lannister at Tywin's wedding. Oh my! Ashara turned to the Starks for help, and Aerys knew this. Then with tensions extremely high, Rhaegar chose Lyanna as queen of love and beauty.Now we are starting to get closer to a series of events that would have helped cause a war.Reposting this because it is getting buried and still has not received any response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Ned seems the most likely from the little we know. Danced with Ashara.Rumours about him and Ashara which he immediately shut. Was the dishonor used by just Barristan or has it been used by someone else as well in relation to Ashara? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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