New Version of fAegon

[Chebyshov]

I get that but as of thus far we have no reason to think Brandon would break his vows. Also he is screwing over Ned, and from Ned's description I dont think Brandon would dishonpr him like that That screams unbelievable.

I agree with Ashara not being raped though. If she is Dornish someone is coming down with her. But no one did....

I think you and I just have very different reads of Brandon's character, but that's okay. There's certainly a lot of details missing, so it's very open to different interpretations.

Reposting this because it is getting buried and still has not received any response.

So the theory is that Aerys keeps raping women who's family members are in the KG? I mean look, it's possible. Aerys was a messed up guy. But it seems more likely that it was a Stark that "dishonored her" based on the text.

[furiousmoose]

Ok, if you are so sure, then explain how, because it makes no sense.

1. Jamie volunteered for the KG because Cersei asked him to, and he would have joined regardless of Harrenhal.

2. Aerys offending Tywin did not have anything to do with starting the war. Tywin didn't even join it until the end. So naming Jamie to the KG had no importance to the Starks, Baratheons, Arryns and Tullys, ie. those who did start the rebellion.

Naming Jaime to the KG made Tyrion the heir of CR. It simultaneously prevented Tywin from gaining a valuable ally while weakening his successor. I never stated that it started a war but its the start of bad blood between Targs and Lannisters.

[Hippocras]

Naming Jaime to the KG made Tyrion the heir of CR. It simultaneously prevented Tywin from gaining a valuable ally while weakening his successor. I never stated that it started a war but its the start of bad blood between Targs and Lannisters.

Well that much is true. But the relevant line from the book implied that Aerys did something antagonistic relevant to the war.

[Hippocras]

So the theory is that Aerys keeps raping women who's family members are in the KG? I mean look, it's possible. Aerys was a messed up guy. But it seems more likely that it was a Stark that "dishonored her" based on the text.

Well he may not have actually raped either of them, or only Ashara. He suggested he would like to rape Joanna, but it is not so likely that he actually did.

He certainly raped Rhaella, that much we know.

Ashara's dishonouring may have been a rape, or may simply have been some kind of public humiliation - like Joffrey stripping Sansa in the throne room. As for the thing about the Starks, I firmly disagree. The text says she looked TO a Stark (ie. for help) and does not say a Stark had anything to do with dishonouring her.

[furiousmoose]

Reposting this because it is getting buried and still has not received any response.

Wow....so I am not a father yet, but I would find it highly unlikly that the prince of Dorne supported the family of his daughters rapist......why are you still posting?

[Hippocras]

Wow....so I am not a father yet, but I would find it highly unlikly that the prince of Dorne supported the family of his daughters rapist......why are you still posting?

Huh? Ashara was not a Martell.

[furiousmoose]

Well that much is true. But the relevant line from the book implied that Aerys did something antagonistic relevant to the war.

He did he burned Edrick alive and allowed a bound Brandon to attempt to rescue him. Afterwards he requesitioned Jon Arryn to present Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark at KL to receive assumably the same fate. Jon Arryn refused after which Robert took up the war call in Lyannas stead. Make no mistake Aerys was the cause of the war. He was insane.

[Hippocras]

He did he burned Edrick alive and allowed a bound Brandon to attempt to rescue him. Afterwards he requesitioned Jon Arryn to present Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark at KL to receive assumably the same fate. Jon Arryn refused after which Robert took up the war call in Lyannas stead. Make no mistake Aerys was the cause of the war. He was insane.

Well yes he did. But something also at the tournament at Harrenhal. As in the war would not have happened if he had not attended.

And if Rhaegar had been planning a rebellion as Aerys believed and as several readers also believe, there would still have been a war. So it was not that.

[furiousmoose]

Huh? Ashara was not a Martell.

Apologies didnt mean to post that although not for the misinformation you amiably corrected but for insult I wrote...

[Chebyshov]

Well yes he did. But something also at the tournament at Harrenhal. As in the war would not have happened if he had not attended.

And if Rhaegar had been planning a rebellion as Aerys believed and as several readers also believe, there would still have been a war. So it was not that.

Why would there have still been a war? Rhaegar would have dispatched Aerys, and he wouldn't have murdered Brandon, his travel companions, and all their fathers.

[furiousmoose]

Well yes he did. But something also at the tournament at Harrenhal. As in the war would not have happened if he had not attended.

And if Rhaegar had been planning a rebellion as Aerys believed and as several readers also believe, there would still have been a war. So it was not that.

In having this conversation I am having difficult time putting a time line together. In answer to your question, I am fairly certain the only splash made at Harenhall was by Rheagar in anouncing Lyanna as the queen of love and beauty. However, this event must have taken place before the execution of the Lord of Winterfell?

[Hippocras]

Why would there have still been a war? Rhaegar would have dispatched Aerys, and he wouldn't have murdered Brandon, his travel companions, and all their fathers.

Ah, so you think covert assassination?

But since it was a faithful Kingsguard member reminiscing that the war who said it would have been avoided if Aerys had not gone to Harrenhal, it seems unlikely they meant it would have been avoided if the King was assassinated.

[Hippocras]

In having this conversation I am having difficult time putting a time line together. In answer to your question, I am fairly certain the only splash made at Harenhall was by Rheagar in anouncing Lyanna as the queen of love and beauty. However, this event must have taken place before the execution of the Lord of Winterfell?

No there was a line in the book that suggested the war might have been avoided if AERYS had not attended the tournament.

Rhaegar choosing Lyanna had nothing to do with Aerys and would have happened anyway so it is not that.

[Chebyshov]

No there was a line in the book that suggested the war might have been avoided if AERYS had not attended the tournament.

Rhaegar choosing Lyanna had nothing to do with Aerys and would have happened anyway so it is not that.

I have no idea what line you're talking about, and I've searched for it fairly extensively. It's from a Barristan chapter? This is all I could find on the matter:

"Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too.

Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne.

Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit

from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys

became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to

give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not

set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany

Prince Rhaegar to Har renhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many

others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty … Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different

choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had

she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young

maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish

princess was a kitchen drab.

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her

laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders

and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at

him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter …

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon

after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at

Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a

knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No

good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty,

might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that."

[Hippocras]

Nope, doesn't seem to be that. I honestly don't know where it was, sorry. I would have to reread all five books to find it since it could have been In a Jamie or a Ned chapter also.

Since I am doing that anyway for an Littlefinger evidence review I will keep my eyes open and let you know. In the meantime you could consider believing me that it is there.

It is vague in any case, and doesn't prove anything. It is a suggestion that Aerys's attendance at the tournament was extremely significant in creating the conditions that led to war and that is about it. It does not say why.

[Chebyshov]

Nope, doesn't seem to be that. I honestly don't know where it was, sorry. I would have to reread all five books to find it since it could have been In a Jamie or a Ned chapter also.

Since I am doin that anyway for an Littlefinger evidence review I will keep my eyes open and let you know. In the meantime you could consider believing me that it is there.

It is vague and doesn't prove anything. It is a vague suggestion that Aerys's attendance at the tournament was extremely significant and that is about it.

I don't not believe you...just thought you mentioned it was in a Barristan chapter. I'll keep my eyes peeled too. You might be thinking of Kevan's line? It has similar phrasing to what you're suggesting:

"She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the

girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she’d flowered, ahhhh … had there ever

been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths

might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes

and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The

northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never

match the rising sun. "

Just a thought, but probably not the passage you're referring to.

[Hippocras]

Wait, no it IS suggested there too:

"Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there."

You are correct that he jumps straight from there to the issue of who was crowned queen of love and beauty, but why on earth did Aerys's presence there matter? Why did it cause things to go awry?

Why did Ashara need to "turn to" anyone? What happened to her?

[Chebyshov]

Wait, no it IS suggested there too:

"Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there."

You are correct that he jumps straight from there to the issue of who was crowned queen of love and beauty, but why on earth did Aerys's presence there matter? Why did it cause things to go awry?

Well, there was Aerys's paranoia with the whole KotLT thing, and ordering Rhaegar to find the knight (who I'm convinced was Lyanna). That probably led to him crowning her. So we as the audience know what that may have mattered.

Of course Barristan wouldn't have known this (most likely), but maybe he meant that if Aerys hadn't been there, Rhaegar could have been scheming with the lords and probably wouldn't have gotten distracted with Lyanna? You're right that it is suspicious. However, I think it's mentioned that Aerys's paranoia got out of control after the tourney, which is likely what he did what he did to Rickard and Brandon, so maybe it's just hypothesized that if he had stayed home, he may not have burned the Lord of Winterfell alive.

[Hippocras]

Yeah maybe.

Still doesn't explain what happened to Ashara. And why does Dany have Ashara's eyes? That line nags at me.

[Khal Shaggydog]

Lots of Targs have the purple eyes, and apparently it can also be a Dayne thing. I think there is more to explore with the apparent similarity between Targaryens and Daynes with appearance - hair color and eyes - but since we hardly know anything of detail about the Daynes its difficult to say the least. We don't even know their words or arms, beyond a guess of a falling star.

Old old families, but one has been on Westeros for about 10,000 years, and the other for about 300.