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Robb Stark Reveals Jon Snow's heraldry in Season 1 (spoilers)


DrewDoherty

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Drew Doherty
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In season 1 of Game of Thrones theres another possible allusion to Jon's parentage/lineage. When preparing to depart Winterfell Jon and Robb are talking to each other. Robb says "Next time I see you, you'll be all in black." Jon replies "it was always my color." as ostensbly a bastard, although a great or royal, bastard but a bastard of house targaryen, not Stark, nonetheless Jons inverted colors would be black on red or "black" like the blackfyre pretenders/legitmized bastards of old. 
 
 
Thoughts? I assume I'm late to the party on this one
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Yeah in terms of what he actually uses, or what would look the coolest, I agree that would probably be better or at the very least it likely won't be the black dragon and red (most often associated with the blackfyres)/if Jon ever uses a personal banner at all. I more just meant that Westeros technicalities would make them that under the strictest interpretation of his existence/ being a male targaryen, but a bastard nonetheless due to Rhaegar's previous recognized marriage (unless R+L=J involved some Targaryen polygamy/marriage vows (like Aegon and his two sisterwives)).

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In AgoT, when talking to Arya observing the training yard, he mentions that Joffrey "honours the Mothers House as much as the Fathers in his personal arms"

So I suspect for my part that like Joffrey using joint Lannister-Baratheon arms Jon will eventually have joint Stark-Targaryen arms

Not sure there's any foreshadowing in that scene though?

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Thats a good catch about Jon's commentary on Joffrey. The outward disgust amongst the older Stark boys towards Joffrey (mostly robb and Jon Snow) was one of my favorite parts of the books adding/inherently having much more detail to give. Especially if this applies to Jon Snow's similar, but hopefully less incesty, honoring of his own his likely mother's house so far (despite being bastard of the north, he's a bastard with more stark ties/credit than most other bastards of the north) as compared to that of his uknown father's. Joffrey "baratheon" and his mostly lion/middling stag loyalty really sets up the stannis/renly loyalty of the stormlands plot, and does a lot for the idea of secret heraldry and or shunning the house of ones father in general.

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On 5/24/2016 at 1:03 AM, DrewDoherty said:
Drew Doherty
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In season 1 of Game of Thrones theres another possible allusion to Jon's parentage/lineage. When preparing to depart Winterfell Jon and Robb are talking to each other. Robb says "Next time I see you, you'll be all in black." Jon replies "it was always my color." as ostensbly a bastard, although a great or royal, bastard but a bastard of house targaryen, not Stark, nonetheless Jons inverted colors would be black on red or "black" like the blackfyre pretenders/legitmized bastards of old. 
 
 
Thoughts? I assume I'm late to the party on this one

The phrase "all in black" appears a handful of times throughout the series. All but two are direct references to (men of) the NW, and one of the remaining two is an indirect reference. The last one, however, describes Rhaegar Targaryen:

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert’s hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor. - AGoT, Eddard I

This line is interesting to me, since Jon is arguably a Targaryen prince who is armored (re: dressed) all in black. Certainly the black leathers and furs he wears armor him against the cold. So, I've always thought that this line might be another R+L=J hint. To take the comparison a step further, neither one was protected by their black armor. Rhaegar's steel plate failed against Robert's war hammer, and Jon's black clothes did not dissuade his sworn brothers from murdering him.

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That's a great point/quote! It sure does seem like GRRM goes out of his way to associate rhaegar targaryen with the color black, and like you said in a lot of ways jon is also mentioned with the same coloring (often by default due to his service with the nights watch). 

If anyone has more instances of this jon-black-rhaegar connection please drop them here!

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  • 1 month later...

Below is another Jon Snow "heraldry" scene taken from the first book that occurs before Jon and Robb's conversation about Jon Snow leaving Winterfell for Castle Black and the Night's watch.

"Jon points out that the newly-arrived Prince Joffery is wearing a sigil that has both the stag and lion on it, giving his mother’s Lannister sigil equality to the royal Baratheon sigil. Jon suggests that Arya should wear a combination sigil for the Starks and Tullys, but Arya jokes that a wolf with a trout in its mouth would look silly. She questions why a girl would need a sigil if she isn't allowed to fight. Jon shrugs that girls get the sigils but not the swords, while bastards get the swords but not the sigils."

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_7

Above is a rough summary of the "Arya" chapter from A Game of Thrones. Granted every marriage of houses In Westeros, great or small, tends to result in a child with theorteical "mixed heraldry", where the father's house heraldry is (almost) ALWAYS the sigil of said offspring. It's really cool, and possibly foreshadowing, that some of Jon Snow's first "scenes" in Winterfell, that we are privy to in ASOIAF, contain him speculating about the mixed heraldry of Great Houses (Joffrey Baratheon/Lannister), and or his own foray into the Night's Watch. 

This scene with Arya and Jon can also be interpreted to have a degree of irony (especially now that the television show has seemingly confirmed ?+L=J (and that question mark is almost certainly "R" due to all of the other hints)) due to the fact that Jon Snow, in some ways thinks even less of Joffrey (than he already seemingly does), due to Joffrey giving his mother's house (Lannister) equal status to his father's house (Baratheon).

Though Jon Snow is a bastard and has no claims on House Stark nor its standard/classic colored sigil (it is known....most bastards end up inverting the colors of their respective House Sigil/heraldry....unless they join the Night's watch and give all of that fun nonsense up...only to be fatally betrayed and stabbed....), he gives a passively dismissive attitude (reinforced by thousands of years Westerosi culture) towards the lineage of a mother's house being given equal footing in the creation of the next generation of lords/ladies. Considering overwhelming textual evidence hints that Jon is seemingly half Targaryen and half Stark, either a bastard targaryen who would invert the red and black to be black and red ("the next time I see you, you'll be all in black": referring to the night's watch and possibly Jon's bastard targaryen status/future), and to this point Jon has spent his entire life in the North either fighting for the Night's Watch, a (once) hallowed institution of the north, or serving House Stark (his mother's house/wardens of the north), it is ironic that a young Jon besmirches Joffrey for doing more or less the same thing (honoring his mother's house equally to his father's). Jon, although it is not his fault fault, has never given any homage to his likely father's house, his targaryen heraldry and sigil.

Further adding to the "all of these accepted parents of about half of the "kids" at Robert's visit to Winterfell not being from the parents they're thought to come from" is that one could argue Joffrey was actually "technically" more "right" for at least honoring the house he is completely from (Lannister), depsite the red herring of a Baratheon Stag, as opposed to Jon who vaguely is related to his mother's house, without truly being accepted, and having no relation to his likely Targaryen roots. Then again this is all clothing, fashion, and ideology more or less. But it can be interesting....

.....When one needs a break of analyzing the real historical events ASOIAF often alludes to, an equally daunting task can be looking up all the cool costume details the production team does on Game of Thrones. Said details can sometimes be as illuminating as applying literal thought to innocent conversations about lineage and sigils in the books (that can appear to have more meaning/implications when translated so literally with all of the "story," or at least a more factual ones in terms of characters true parents). 

In conclusion, Arya, rightly (in this humble idiots opinion), challenges him on his assertion/vague sexist attitude towards women (as this current Stark generation's reincarnation/"vision" or visage of Lyanna Stark prootype (strong-willed, seemingly honest/good/fair, and willing to challenge the status quo of patriarchy and or customs that tend to hold women in Westerosi society back). Lyanna Stark "stand in's" (be they half-sisters/cousins or loyal Mormonts (little girls of grizzled Lord Commanders) seem to be making a custom of helping/standing up to Jon for his ultimate benefit.

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