Possible New Black Rocks Location/Connection!

[Maester of Valyria]

17 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

It seems kind of backwards to me to worships something you created. 

The Children seem to worship the spirits inside the trees, not the trees themselves. The First Men worship the trees because they've forgotten the truth. But like I said, just spitballing.

[Maester of Valyria]

22 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

It's kind of outright stated during Bran's training that the greenseers believed themselves to be the Old Gods. Through Bloodraven we can see that the greenseers just use weirwoods as conduits. Men/Children were praying to the greenseers through weirwoods. Greenseers could then see/hear people's prayers and if it was within their power they would help, which men interpreted as the gods' favor. Which explains why the Andals cutting down weirwoods was such a huge deal, their magic could no longer assist them.

This is my point: praying to the trees just meant praying to the greenseers.

[Lord Vance II]

But back to the oily black stone. 

I reread the world book's part on Asshai, and it says that Asshai's oily black stone is unpleasant to touch. The Seastone Chair is made of the same class of black stone (by our definition), is it ever said to be weird feeling? Is it called oily because it's shiny or because it feels oily? I'd ask the same about the frog idol, but we don't know much about that other than it exists. 

Out on a limb, if the Seastone Chair is not "oily" to the touch, could that mean the Asshai oily stone is a class all its own, maybe enhanced by the magic of Asshai and the Shadow?

[Maester of Valyria]

23 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

But back to the oily black stone. 

I reread the world book's part on Asshai, and it says that Asshai's oily black stone is unpleasant to touch. The Seastone Chair is made of the same class of black stone (by our definition), is it ever said to be weird feeling? Is it called oily because it's shiny or because it feels oily? I'd ask the same about the frog idol, but we don't know much about that other than it exists. 

Out on a limb, if the Seastone Chair is not "oily" to the touch, could that mean the Asshai oily stone is a class all its own, maybe enhanced by the magic of Asshai and the Shadow?

Yeen is also built of oily Black Stone, which makes it likely that the Toad Idol is too.

[El Dude]

Thanks for the thoughtful post @Cowboy Dan , however, you don't have me convinced. I think you are typically right that concepts or metaphors that GRRM uses rarely can be big hints, but I don't think your motar concept is one of those times.

GRRM loves using vividly rich details that can allow your mind to reconstruct the scene he imagines with as few words as possible, particularly when he has a specific scene in mind. Also, GRRM grew up in a time of family decay when his family's wealth had drastically contracted and he spoke of how he and his family used to walk by big, grand, but decaying buildings his family used to own and live in not so long ago. Taken together, I read the Bran scene as a bit of a metaphor for GRRM's childhood, or at the least, GRRM using vivid details to construct the scene he envisions.

Earlier I wrote:

Quote

However, these details may just be the rich, vivid details GRRM wanted in the book as a description of the HOTU, as a house in decay.

On that note, one thing I want to bring up is GRRM has been constantly making up more of his world as he writes. His world at the end of GOT is not the same as it currently is; he has been doing a lot more world building and fleshing out of concepts as the series has progressed over the 20+ year he has been writing. So when we look back at his earlier books, particularly GOT and COK, there are likely details that he wished he included or would want changed in order to make a more fluent/congruent series. Which is just another way of saying, let's be cautious.

I think this concept puts a hole or two in your theory.

Also, as a (different type of) writer, one thing I catch myself (and other authors) doing is unintentionally recycling the same metaphors or sayings in different places (see my above use of "vivid, rich details"). As a literary device this creates continuity but also is repetitious which is a double-edged sword. The motar metaphor is used at such innocuous times and unrelated events that it doesn't make me think twice about its meaning. Furthermore, I don't see a clear connection between its uses; sometimes it means A, sometimes it means B or C (depends = low correlation).

Your analysis about the (false) dichotomy rings true in other examples and is classic GRRM; what you see isn't always what it is! This concept deserves more development (perhaps its own post) and does not deserve to be attached to the shallow motar theory.

[Maester of Valyria]

15 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Haha yeah it just wasn't very clear. Apologies, I was once a Philosophy major early in my academic career so pedantically and needlessly clarifying points of an argument is an old habit I'm still trying to break.

 

Oh please don't apologise! I'm a massive pedant when it comes to arguments' finer points too; it's good for keeping the discussions straightforward and on-topic.

[Maester Crypt]

Here is a couple of black stone mentions I noticed, don't know really if it relates to what you are discussing. A question about its texture, could climate be a factor in why some are described as smooth?

He leaned against the battlement, the sea crashing beneath him, the black stone rough beneath his fingers. Talking gargoyles and prophecies in the sky. - Cressan at Dragonstone

The Guildhall of the Alchemists was an imposing warren of black stone, but Hallyne led him through the twists and turns until they reached the Gallery of the Iron Torches, a long echoing chamber where columns of green fire danced - Tyrion in Kings Landing

[Little Scribe of Naath]

On 7/22/2016 at 4:53 AM, El Dude said:

Hello all, I'm new to this site, but quite familiar with the books and I wanted to share something I found and get feedback on the idea(s).

Many of us here seem to be familiar with the greasy/oily black rock/stone theory, but to summarize: (Correct me if I'm wrong.) These specific stones that "seem to drink in the light" are described very similarly--probably deliberately--by GRRM and are found at a handful of places throughout the known world, and are distinct from Valyrian fused rock in that the former predate the later. These locations and rocks are described to be evil, or at the least, quite ominous, and these sites have a power of some sort. From there many theories branch as to what they mean, where they came from, and what they are. Nevertheless they seem like an important hint at a larger--possibly Lovecraftian--story within the ASOIAF world.

Known location of these rocks include the entire city of Ashai, the deserted city Yeen, the Seastone chair of the Iron Isles, the base of the Hightower in Oldtown, the Five Forts and the carved rock idol in Yi Ti. (Let me know if I am missing any.) However none have previously been sighted in Qarth.

Any who, the other day I was rereading one of the last Dany chapters in ACOK, the one in which she enters the House of the Undying/Palace of Dust, and as I read the first few paragraphs my mouth fell open in astonishment:

Perhaps I'm reading into it too much, but the place is clearly described as powerful and ominious/evil with black rocks (tiles) that drink up the light. To me, the House of the Undying seems like another black rock site. Thoughts?

Also, this raises the possibility that the power of shade of the evening comes from the evil black rocks. Thoughts? Have these ideas been previously discussed?

Good catch, @El Dude !

One small correction: I think the Five Forts were made of the fused black dragonstone, not the oily stone we are discussing?

So if you remove the Five Forts from the list, all the other places have dark, ominous associations, and Asshai and Yeen are famously inhospitable to life (apart from dark magic sorcerors in Asshai, of course). So the House of the Undying fits in with the rest, in that way.

As to the connection between the black/blue trees and the oily stone, an idea occurred to me (though it might be unlikely). Could the stone be dead Shade-of-the-Evening trees which have turned to stone, similar to House Blackwood's weirwood tree? 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

I love the mystery of the oily black stone, it's one I really hope we get some more info on.  

I'm also very curious about the multiple mentions of black water in the books and wonder if there is a connection.  There is the black poisoned water in Asshai. There is the poisoned euthanasia pool in the house of black & white.  There is also the Blackwater Rush - admittedly not actual 'black water' but the origin of the name may be relevant.  There are other black pools mentioned, including the lake under Bloodraven's cave and I'm sure there's another one in building somewhere, similar to the HOBAW.  I'm going to have a bit of a dig on this.

Having said that, the pool by the Winterfell weirwood is regularly described as being black, but doesn't appear to have any evil/poison/corrupt connotations, so I may be entirely wrong 

[Lord Vance II]

54 minutes ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I'm also very curious about the multiple mentions of black water in the books and wonder if there is a connection.

Interesting. I did a quick text search...and while I don't see much of a connection between water described as black and the oily black stone. 

Water that is literally black might be though. 

There are a fuck ton of descriptions of "black water." Davos, Danaerys, Ned, Tyrion, Arya and Sam all have mention of it multiple times, and nearly every time it seems to foreshadow bad things. Ned cleaning his sword beside the black water of the Godswood pool, Davos sailing across black water to deliver Millessandre to Storms End and to attack KL, Tyrion going into the black water when he is attacked by stonemen, etc. 

The water in the HoBaW , though, is supposed to be literally black, like ink. I mean, I could see maybe some sort of the oily black stone being at the bottom of the basin and corrupt the water? Not that I really think their is, but maybe. 

And in Asshai, I can't really tell if the water is literally black or just dark....I'm thinking the latter because its described as phosphorescent. But it's clearly poison, creating mutant fish and sickly plants. I don't think the Oily Black Stone of Asshai could cause it though, because Asshai is the endpoint of the river, the source is in the Shadow, which could be an entirely different source of dark magic. 

OR, maybe there's tons of the Oily Black Stone beneath the shadow?

1 hour ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

There is also the Blackwater Rush - admittedly not actual 'black water' but the origin of the name may be relevant.

Always thought Blackwater Rush was the coolest name of a river I'd ever heard. 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

@Lord Vance II

I think it's the oily black stone which has poisoned the water in Asshai, though we can't really be sure.

With regards to black water having sinister associations, Melisandre sees towers by the sea which will be submerged by a black tide, so you might be on to something. TWOIAF also speculates that the oily black stone has connections with underwater sea creatures (Deep Ones).

[Maester of Valyria]

On 03/08/2016 at 3:17 PM, Maester Crypt said:

Here is a couple of black stone mentions I noticed, don't know really if it relates to what you are discussing. A question about its texture, could climate be a factor in why some are described as smooth?

He leaned against the battlement, the sea crashing beneath him, the black stone rough beneath his fingers. Talking gargoyles and prophecies in the sky. - Cressan at Dragonstone

The Guildhall of the Alchemists was an imposing warren of black stone, but Hallyne led him through the twists and turns until they reached the Gallery of the Iron Torches, a long echoing chamber where columns of green fire danced - Tyrion in Kings Landing

Dragonstone is made out of the fused Valyrian stone, so its origins are known.

The Guildhall is in King's Landing, a fairly new city, so I doubt that it is made of the ancient and mysterious Black Stone. However some of the substance may have been imported by the Alchemists at the height of their power and wealth, and used for tiles or decorations maybe?

 

On 03/08/2016 at 4:26 PM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

all the other places have dark, ominous associations

What would you say the Seastone Chair's ominous associations would be?

On 03/08/2016 at 4:26 PM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

As to the connection between the black/blue trees and the oily stone, an idea occurred to me (though it might be unlikely). Could the stone be dead Shade-of-the-Evening trees which have turned to stone, similar to House Blackwood's weirwood tree? 

Interesting. This would imply that the SotE trees were once much more widespread, but have since either died out or been over-exploited (which may be the reason for the GeoDawnians'/Black Stone builders' eventual fall: they ran out of magical resources). Very interesting.

By the way, love your signature

 

On 05/08/2016 at 1:38 PM, Lord Vance II said:

And in Asshai, I can't really tell if the water is literally black or just dark....I'm thinking the latter because its described as phosphorescent. But it's clearly poison, creating mutant fish and sickly plants. I don't think the Oily Black Stone of Asshai could cause it though, because Asshai is the endpoint of the river, the source is in the Shadow, which could be an entirely different source of dark magic. 

OR, maybe there's tons of the Oily Black Stone beneath the shadow?

I was just thinking this: maybe the Black Stone is/was mined in the Shadowlands? Is Stygai in fact a mining colony?

[Little Scribe of Naath]

4 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

What would you say the Seastone Chair's ominous associations would be?

Interesting. This would imply that the SotE trees were once much more widespread, but have since either died out or been over-exploited (which may be the reason for the GeoDawnians'/Black Stone builders' eventual fall: they ran out of magical resources). Very interesting.

By the way, love your signature

Seastone Chair - Hmm.. I was thinking of the general plundering,looting and raping culture of the Ironborn itself. It is at odds with the rest of Westeros.

The oily black stone is implied to have "fallen from the sky", but if a huge meteorite crashed into Planetos (around Asshai), then we have to presume that they built Asshai from the stone and then travelled the rest of the world building Yeen, Toad Island, Seastone Chair, etc. which does not make too much sense.

Instead, I think the connection between those stones and the sea is there for a reason. The stone could be from under the sea (Patchface's condition is a big indication that there is something mysterious going on under the sea).

Alternatively, I would think that the stone could be the petrified Shade-of-the-Evening trees. That might explain how Yeen was "formed from blocks of stone so large that it would take a dozen elephants to move them". If the stone was a tree in the first place, it would have been easy to construct cities from it.

Stygai is an interesting suggestion as well. Curiously, the Shadow Lands and Stygai sound like they are under a permanent "Long Night" - no sunlight, no life, ghost grass, haunted by corpses and demons...

There is a big mystery here which almost certainly (IMO) is connected to the original Long Night.

 

On the signature: Thanks! I saw it on Reddit, it exactly fit what I feel about the show 

[Maester of Valyria]

On 07/08/2016 at 1:13 AM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Seastone Chair - Hmm.. I was thinking of the general plundering,looting and raping culture of the Ironborn itself. It is at odds with the rest of Westeros.

I was thinking more of adverse effects the Chair has on those who actually sit on it. I take the view that the violent culture of the Ironborn can be easily explained by their isolation and perpetual need for mainland resources.

On 07/08/2016 at 1:13 AM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

The oily black stone is implied to have "fallen from the sky", but if a huge meteorite crashed into Planetos (around Asshai), then we have to presume that they built Asshai from the stone and then travelled the rest of the world building Yeen, Toad Island, Seastone Chair, etc. which does not make too much sense.

I've never been a huge fan of the Black Stone being extraterrestrial in origin, as there are large areas of the world with absolutely no examples of it, and a bombardment large enough to build Asshai and Yeen from the ruins would have destroyed all life on the planet. And as you say, there's the implausibility of these people travelling the world to find it all.

On 07/08/2016 at 1:13 AM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Instead, I think the connection between those stones and the sea is there for a reason. The stone could be from under the sea (Patchface's condition is a big indication that there is something mysterious going on under the sea).

Alternatively, I would think that the stone could be the petrified Shade-of-the-Evening trees. That might explain how Yeen was "formed from blocks of stone so large that it would take a dozen elephants to move them". If the stone was a tree in the first place, it would have been easy to construct cities from it.

I always thought that the connection with the sea could be explained by this 'Dawn Race' being a civilisation built primarily on sea travel and trade. Undersea mining would seem a bit of a stretch for any civilisation with less than our own level of technology.

This is an intriguing possibility, although it does raise the question of how it was shaped and what happened to the knowledge of how to create the Stone.

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

12 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I was thinking more of adverse effects the Chair has on those who actually sit on it. I take the view that the violent culture of the Ironborn can be easily explained by their isolation and perpetual need for mainland resources.

I think you're right, because someone (Damphair?) comments on how much Balon has aged sitting on that chair, or something to that effect.

12 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I've never been a huge fan of the Black Stone being extraterrestrial in origin, as there are large areas of the world with absolutely no examples of it, and a bombardment large enough to build Asshai and Yeen from the ruins would have destroyed all life on the planet. And as you say, there's the implausibility of these people travelling the world to find it all.

That's a great point about how such a large meteorite would have destroyed everything on the planet. Plus, it also doesn't seem GRRM's style. A lot of the old legends and myths related in the story are metaphorical, so the phrase "fallen from the sky" might mean something else entirely.

12 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I always thought that the connection with the sea could be explained by this 'Dawn Race' being a civilisation built primarily on sea travel and trade. Undersea mining would seem a bit of a stretch for any civilisation with less than our own level of technology.

This is an intruiging possibility, although it does raise the question of how it was shaped and what happened to the knowledge of how to create the Stone.

Oh, I was thinking of some kind of non-human race of creatures under the sea (Deep Ones?) who might possibly know how to work this stone. That's why I brought up Patchface - his survival under the sea is really curious, as is his condition. I think TWOIAF also hints at this possibility.

There was also Cotter Pyke's "dead things in the water" in ADWD and (TWOW spoiler):

Spoiler

Euron seems set to harness some kind of undersea force, to defeat the Redwyne fleet.

 

[Lord Vance II]

On 8/6/2016 at 2:46 PM, Maester of Valyria said:

I was just thinking this: maybe the Black Stone is/was mined in the Shadowlands? Is Stygai in fact a mining colony?

Could be. The geography is there, being able to use the river to transport blocks. I don't think it would explain any of the stone but Asshai though, moving blocks like that over oceans doesn't seem practical. Maybe the Seastone Chair and frog idol were made there. 

Maybe theirs another quarry somewhere near Yeen. Would explain how the stone got there and possibly why the place is so evil. 

[Maester of Valyria]

11 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

That's a great point about how such a large meteorite would have destroyed everything on the planet. Plus, it also doesn't seem GRRM's style. A lot of the old legends and myths related in the story are metaphorical, so the phrase "fallen from the sky" might mean something else entirely.

That's always been my take on it too. Aside from the Dawn meteorite and the Bloodstone, I don't think there's enought non-circumstantial evidence to support recent meteorite impacts.

11 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Oh, I was thinking of some kind of non-human race of creatures under the sea (Deep Ones?) who might possibly know how to work this stone. That's why I brought up Patchface - his survival under the sea is really curious, as is his condition. I think TWOIAF also hints at this possibility.

There was also Cotter Pyke's "dead things in the water" in ADWD and (TWOW spoiler):

I confess I've always been a bit of a sceptic when it comes to the Deep Ones, although that might be because I've never seen one comprehensive theory addressing them. Pyke's infamous and chilling line is (to me) likely to refer to wights floating in the water.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

Could be. The geography is there, being able to use the river to transport blocks. I don't think it would explain any of the stone but Asshai though, moving blocks like that over oceans doesn't seem practical. Maybe the Seastone Chair and frog idol were made there. 

Maybe theirs another quarry somewhere near Yeen. Would explain how the stone got there and possibly why the place is so evil. 

Perhaps. You may have hit on something there; I do like the idea of a mine in Sothoryos corrupting Yeen and its environs.

That said, the Dawn Race/GeoDawnians/whatevers were undoubtedly an advanced civilisation, so transporting the stone (or possibly its constituent materials?) over oceans may have been within their capabilities.