Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Mystery Knight

Edited Title - Speculations on Geography

49 posts in this topic

I know that the Wall and the Shadow by Asshai makes two, but are there any others? Also, what is the Shadow blocking or guarding? And what exactly is the Shadow? Any and all input is appreciated.

[Mod Edit] - Removed title references to spoiler material and moved post to ADWD thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone please explain to me what a "hinge" of the world is. It gets brought up on the board every now and again and I have no idea what constitutes a hinge of the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know that the Wall and the Shadow by Asshai makes two, but are there any others? Also, what is the Shadow blocking or guarding? And what exactly is the Shadow? Any and all input is appreciated.

"Know" is a bit of a strong word, but I also support the theory. :P One possibility is that the Shadow itself is the threat, and that the shadowbinders and Red Priests are holding it back, like the Wall holds back the Others. If so, the threat could comprise feral, independent shadowbabies (unlike the enslaved ones that the shadowbinders can command) and that could have been the ancient enemy that R'hllor fought thousands of years ago, not the Others on the opposite side of the world (more or less).

Here's the original thread, for reference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Know" is a bit of a strong word, but I also support the theory. :P One possibility is that the Shadow itself is the threat, and that the shadowbinders and Red Priests are holding it back, like the Wall holds back the Others. If so, the threat could comprise feral, independent shadowbabies (unlike the enslaved ones that the shadowbinders can command) and that could have been the ancient enemy that R'hllor fought thousands of years ago, not the Others on the opposite side of the world (more or less).

I highly doubt it. Isn't R'hllor the God of Flame and Shadow? Not to mention it'd be a bit late to throw that storyline into the series; plus I'm not sure how it'd make sense with the Others killing all the humans in the North.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I highly doubt it. Isn't R'hllor the God of Flame and Shadow? Not to mention it'd be a bit late to throw that storyline into the series; plus I'm not sure how it'd make sense with the Others killing all the humans in the North.

You think it more likely that people in the ancient past were trotting about to the far corners of the globe? That doesn't ring very true to me. And the mystery of the Shadow needs to be resolved somehow or other, an explanation along these lines wouldn't disrupt the story any more than anything else. As to how it conflicts with the Others in the north, I confess to having no idea of what you are talking.

The god of flame and shadow bit may come from Melisandre alone (if Thoros or any other source confirms it, please correct me), who is highly suspect. Even if it is true, it wouldn't be the first instance of an internal contradiction in an organized religion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here's the original thread, for reference.

Wow. Thanks so much for linking to that thread. I haven't been here for long and I doubt I would have ever found it on my own. You obviously put a lot of thought into your theory and it's very intriguing!

<scurries off to read the whole thing>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the future, if you are going to discuss something that is in preview chapters for an upcoming book, be sure to not put anything about it in the thread title and be sure you spoiler tag the thread in the title.

Anything about ADWD is considered a spoiler since the book isn't out yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You think it more likely that people in the ancient past were trotting about to the far corners of the globe? That doesn't ring very true to me. And the mystery of the Shadow needs to be resolved somehow or other, an explanation along these lines wouldn't disrupt the story any more than anything else. As to how it conflicts with the Others in the north, I confess to having no idea of what you are talking.

The god of flame and shadow bit may come from Melisandre alone (if Thoros or any other source confirms it, please correct me), who is highly suspect. Even if it is true, it wouldn't be the first instance of an internal contradiction in an organized religion.

It is indeed only Melisandre that proclaims the god of flame and shadow bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the Shadow is R'hllors domain. Similar like the Heart of the Winter is the Great Others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You think it more likely that people in the ancient past were trotting about to the far corners of the globe? That doesn't ring very true to me. And the mystery of the Shadow needs to be resolved somehow or other, an explanation along these lines wouldn't disrupt the story any more than anything else. As to how it conflicts with the Others in the north, I confess to having no idea of what you are talking.

The god of flame and shadow bit may come from Melisandre alone (if Thoros or any other source confirms it, please correct me), who is highly suspect. Even if it is true, it wouldn't be the first instance of an internal contradiction in an organized religion.

You think it more likely that the humans of Westeros are gonna have to fight Others AND Shadows (which would be introduced in book 5 of a planned 7, at earliest)? Unlikely. I'm not sure what "trotting about the far corners of the globe" has to do with this, though.

It'd be severly dissapointing for an author to spend all this time speaking of this ominous threat of the White Walkers and then bring in Shadows from the other side of the world. And some (not me, to be honest) people think he's ALREADY juggling more plotlines than he could handle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You think it more likely that the humans of Westeros are gonna have to fight Others AND Shadows (which would be introduced in book 5 of a planned 7, at earliest)?
Um...not really. See, the Shadow is almost on the other side of the world from Westeros, so humans from Westeros would hardly be on the front lines of that particular threat (if it is one).

I'm not sure what "trotting about the far corners of the globe" has to do with this, though.

Really? It seems pretty obvious to me. Ability to travel over really large portions of the earth in a single lifetime is something that is much more commonly encountered in more modern eras than in truly ancient ones. William of Rubruck and Marco Polo crossed Eurasia in the middle ages, but that's just one continent, really. The Last Hero supposedly lived 8,000 years ago, when transportation technologies and infrastructure (roads, sailing) would have been much more primitive than medieval levels. For him to come from Asshai would be like a famous caveman ...one guy, mind, not multiple generations making a gradual migration....going from Australia to Greenland. It stretches credulity quite a bit.

Nor would the resurgent threat of the others necessarily mean that the Shadow poses greater than usual difficulties. It seems likely to me that there is some sort of relationship between the two, but it's impossible to say what that relationship would be. It could be a pendulum type of thing where one gets stronger when the other gets weaker, and they take turns in their assaults. Or anything really.

It'd be severly dissapointing for an author to spend all this time speaking of this ominous threat of the White Walkers and then bring in Shadows from the other side of the world. And some (not me, to be honest) people think he's ALREADY juggling more plotlines than he could handle.

The Shadow by Asshai was introduced in aGoT, and it's still shrouded in mystery. However it sounds to me as if you want GRRM to just ignore having ever mentioned it and never resolve the questions about it in any way at all, as if it would automatically detract too much from the others, since you seem to object to even a resolution whereby the characters learn more about the nature of the Others from information they learn about the Shadow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Um...not really. See, the Shadow is almost on the other side of the world from Westeros, so humans from Westeros would hardly be on the front lines of that particular threat (if it is one).

True. So if it did happen, it'd be a side thing, so I'm not sure what point it'd be in bringing it up. You can talk about binding magical Shadows of R'hllor as freely as you want, but you have no way to prove it due to sevre lack of evidence.

Really? It seems pretty obvious to me. Ability to travel over really large portions of the earth in a single lifetime is something that is much more commonly encountered in more modern eras than in truly ancient ones. William of Rubruck and Marco Polo crossed Eurasia in the middle ages, but that's just one continent, really. The Last Hero supposedly lived 8,000 years ago, when transportation technologies and infrastructure (roads, sailing) would have been much more primitive than medieval levels. For him to come from Asshai would be like a famous caveman ...one guy, mind, not multiple generations making a gradual migration....going from Australia to Greenland. It stretches credulity quite a bit.

Who said Azor Ahai was from bloody Asshai??? It's pretty obvious he was one of the First Men based off of what we've seen. The hundred kingdoms of that time where the kingdoms of the First Men, so, logically, the humans that allied with the Children and fought the War of the Dawn (including the Last Hero) where First Men.

Nor would the resurgent threat of the others necessarily mean that the Shadow poses greater than usual difficulties. It seems likely to me that there is some sort of relationship between the two, but it's impossible to say what that relationship would be. It could be a pendulum type of thing where one gets stronger when the other gets weaker, and they take turns in their assaults. Or anything really.

So basically, you could say anything you want about the Shadow, but with no evidence for your case.

The Shadow by Asshai was introduced in aGoT, and it's still shrouded in mystery. However it sounds to me as if you want GRRM to just ignore having ever mentioned it and never resolve the questions about it in any way at all, as if it would automatically detract too much from the others, since you seem to object to even a resolution whereby the characters learn more about the nature of the Others from information they learn about the Shadow.

Talk about misquoting? When did I say anything about ignoring it was ever mentioned and leaving it unresolved? Just because I don't agree with YOUR theory doesn't mean there's no other answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
True. So if it did happen, it'd be a side thing, so I'm not sure what point it'd be in bringing it up. You can talk about binding magical Shadows of R'hllor as freely as you want, but you have no way to prove it due to sevre lack of evidence.

I'm not sure what you think I'm saying. Do you mean that you really fail to see that Shadowbaby that the Shadowbinder Melisandre birthed under Storm's End is evidence that, just maybe, the Shadow by Asshai might be magical in nature? You know, the fact that a practitoner of the form of sorcery that shares it's name with the region can create an animate being out of shadowmight hint at a magical quality to the place where that sorecery comes from? Or that Asshai (where Quaithe said Dany must go to find truth) could have any possible relevance to Dany's future, which will probably involve fighting the Others judging from her dream of fighting an army armoured in ice from dragonback?

Who said Azor Ahai was from bloody Asshai??? It's pretty obvious he was one of the First Men based off of what we've seen. The hundred kingdoms of that time where the kingdoms of the First Men, so, logically, the humans that allied with the Children and fought the War of the Dawn (including the Last Hero) where First Men.

You've jumped to some extraordinarily unfirm conclusions there. It is not clear that Azor Ahai and the Last Hero were the same person. Not even Mel claims that explicitly, as far as I recall. There is NO longtime tradition of Azor Ahai in Westeros, it evidently comes from Asshai, and to have spread to the Free Cities. Mel spoke of the prophecies of his return originating in "the ancient books of Asshai". One might expect that some of the details of his life might have been preserved in Westeros if he really was from there, like his name, his feat of forging lightbringer by tempering it in his wife Nissa Nissa's heart, or that there might be some slight hint that the religion that he's the saviour figure of might have been founded, or at least known, to Westerosi, or that his name not be so foreign sounding compared to native Westerosi names....especially First Men names.

The Last Hero appears to have made a breakthrough fighting the Others when he received the aid of the CotF, and the closest hint that we have to their magic having any fire basis is their use of dragonglass. For the most part, they seem to be using anything but; mud and water, and the power of green trees. Compared to that, the Azor Ahai/Rhllorian emphasis seems to be entirely fiery, Mel the one who goes on about Azor Ahai the most uses fire to burn the very weirwoods sacred to the CotF.

In short, what you think is "pretty obvious" actually flies in the face of just about everything we've ever heard about Azor Ahai. Which isn't to say that it's impossible, but it should be far from obvious to any reader that is paying attention.

So basically, you could say anything you want about the Shadow, but with no evidence for your case.
I'm not even making a case for what the precise details of the connection between the Shadow and the Others are. Merely that some connection exists.

Talk about misquoting? When did I say anything about ignoring it was ever mentioned and leaving it unresolved?
I directly quoted what I was referring to:
It'd be severly dissapointing for an author to spend all this time speaking of this ominous threat of the White Walkers and then bring in Shadows from the other side of the world.

No misquote at all. It sounds to me as if you will be "extremely disappointed" if GRRM "brings in Shadows from the other side of the world". If you don't want him to bring them in, it follows that you would prefer to leave them out. However, if by "bringing them in" you assume that I'm asserting that they'll travel around the world to Westeros, then it is you who are severely misinterpreting what I have said at any point on the subject.

Just because I don't agree with YOUR theory doesn't mean there's no other answer.

Either you are continuing to jump to conclusions about what I am saying, or you don't want GRRM to "bring in shadows". I'm hardly the one trying to constrain the possibilities of how the series could be resolved, here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not sure what you think I'm saying. Do you mean that you really fail to see that Shadowbaby that the Shadowbinder Melisandre birthed under Storm's End is evidence that, just maybe, the Shadow by Asshai might be magical in nature? You know, the fact that a practitoner of the form of sorcery that shares it's name with the region can create an animate being out of shadowmight hint at a magical quality to the place where that sorecery comes from? Or that Asshai (where Quaithe said Dany must go to find truth) could have any possible relevance to Dany's future, which will probably involve fighting the Others judging from her dream of fighting an army armoured in ice from dragonback?

I never said that there wasn't a connection. I'm not sure if you're getting what I'm saying. Just because someone can bind and birth a shadow doesn't mean that there's a group of Shadowbinders holding back the Shadow which is "really" what Azor Ahai defeated all those years ago. It doesn't really fit with the fact that AAR and the PWWP are the same person.

You've jumped to some extraordinarily unfirm conclusions there. It is not clear that Azor Ahai and the Last Hero were the same person. Not even Mel claims that explicitly, as far as I recall. There is NO longtime tradition of Azor Ahai in Westeros, it evidently comes from Asshai, and to have spread to the Free Cities. Mel spoke of the prophecies of his return originating in "the ancient books of Asshai". One might expect that some of the details of his life might have been preserved in Westeros if he really was from there, like his name, his feat of forging lightbringer by tempering it in his wife Nissa Nissa's heart, or that there might be some slight hint that the religion that he's the saviour figure of might have been founded, or at least known, to Westerosi, or that his name not be so foreign sounding compared to native Westerosi names....especially First Men names.

The Last Hero appears to have made a breakthrough fighting the Others when he received the aid of the CotF, and the closest hint that we have to their magic having any fire basis is their use of dragonglass. For the most part, they seem to be using anything but; mud and water, and the power of green trees. Compared to that, the Azor Ahai/Rhllorian emphasis seems to be entirely fiery, Mel the one who goes on about Azor Ahai the most uses fire to burn the very weirwoods sacred to the CotF.

In short, what you think is "pretty obvious" actually flies in the face of just about everything we've ever heard about Azor Ahai. Which isn't to say that it's impossible, but it should be far from obvious to any reader that is paying attention.

The hero who stopped the Others 8,000 years ago is known in the eastern traditions as Azor Ahai. It pretty much SAYS IT in the books in the Nissa Nissa story. If one bothers to make the connections, then yes, it's obvious Azor Ahai (whatever his real name was) fought the Others. Saying that he was really the one that defeated the Shadows all those years ago doesn't fit with either the Prophecy or the fact that Azor Ahai Reborn is the Prince Who Was Promised (which is prophesied to defeat the Others).

The fact that the only humans at Westeros were the First Men and that Azor Ahai was in Westeros pretty much renders the theory that he was the defeater of the Shadow highly unlikely. Almost, one could say, impossible.

I'm not even making a case for what the precise details of the connection between the Shadow and the Others are. Merely that some connection exists.

I'm talking about your Shadow theory, if you hadn't noticed. What I'm saying is that that theory doesn't correspond with what's been shown. The numbers don't add up. I'm not saying there's no connection, which there may or may not be. What could Dany learn in the Shadow? That she's AAR? Or something else? The hell if I know, but it's pretty obvious Azor Ahai fought the Others.

No misquote at all. It sounds to me as if you will be "extremely disappointed" if GRRM "brings in Shadows from the other side of the world". If you don't want him to bring them in, it follows that you would prefer to leave them out. However, if by "bringing them in" you assume that I'm asserting that they'll travel around the world to Westeros, then it is you who are severely misinterpreting what I have said at any point on the subject.

If not misquote, than serious misinterperitation. I said it'd be dissapointing for Martin to tell us about the Others and build that whole story up, and then bring in the Shadow (following your theory), which had no foreshadowing nor build up.

Either you are continuing to jump to conclusions about what I am saying, or you don't want GRRM to "bring in shadows". I'm hardly the one trying to constrain the possibilities of how the series could be resolved, here.

I don't think you're understanding. I'm talking about your theory, which doesn't make sense given what we've read. Whether or not I want GRRM to "bring in shadows" doesn't matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The hero who stopped the Others 8,000 years ago is known in the eastern traditions as Azor Ahai. It pretty much SAYS IT in the books in the Nissa Nissa story.

Do provide this exact quote then. I fear you won't find any such thing. Sallador Saan's tale of Nissa Nissa makes absolutely zero mention of the Others.

If one bothers to make the connections, chooses to pretend that one's subjective interpretation is the same as what the text actually states then yes, it's obvious Azor Ahai (whatever his real name was) fought the Others.

Fixed.

Saying that he was really the one that defeated the Shadows all those years ago doesn't fit with either the Prophecy or the fact that Azor Ahai Reborn is the Prince Who Was Promised (which is prophesied to defeat the Others).

More conclusion jumping. You haven't shown how the original Azor Ahai fighting in the region that the Azor Ahai religion comes from conflicts with any prophecy whatsoever, you just keep trying to assert it through sheer repetition. Why don't you actually try to quote a specific prophecy that demonstrates this so-called conflict?

The fact that the only humans at Westeros were the First Men and that Azor Ahai was in Westeros pretty much renders the theory that he was the defeater of the Shadow highly unlikely. Almost, one could say, impossible.

:bang:

Not. A. Fact.

Merely speculation on your part, and not even speculation that you have bothered to support in the slightest bit.

The hell if I know, but it's pretty obvious Azor Ahai fought the Others.

You keep saying this with all the conviction of evidence of the "Well, some guy in a bar told me, so it HAS to be true" variety.

If not misquote, than serious misinterperitation. I said it'd be dissapointing for Martin to tell us about the Others and build that whole story up, and then bring in the Shadow (following your theory), which had no foreshadowing nor build up.

No foreshadowing besides Quaithe repeatedly telling Dany that she must go to Asshai to get the truth, go East to get West, and pass beneath the Shadow to reach the light? No, no foreshadowing besides that at all. :rolleyes:

Honestly, the fact that you are so utterly unwilling to consider anything that conflicts with the conclusion that you've jumped to, let alone back up your claims with evidence is beginning to make me think it's a waste of time talking to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

um guys you know the answer is already out there right? From the R+L thread comes this link

Last question:

[Will we see Asshai?]

Only in flasback and memory, if at all.

So I'm doubting its going to be a huge plotline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
um guys you know the answer is already out there right? From the R+L thread comes this link

Last question:

So I'm doubting its going to be a huge plotline.

That's only an answer to a fairly small part of the issue.

The Tower of Joy fight has only been seen in memory and flashback, but that hardly makes it insignificant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JW if the interview from the link was made before or after the scrapping of the 5 Year Gap?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OiL- So the fact that AAR is supposed to fight the Others means nothing in this case? There hasn't been the slightest indication that your theory that AAR fought the Shadow has the slightest bit of truth.

The books TELL that it was the First Men who inhabited Westeros at that time. The Andals and whoever else came later. That IS a fact. There's no point denying it just because you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore what I'm saying.

I'll quote the Citadel: "The red star would be the comet, and the Others and the coming winter would be the darkness, like that of the Long Night."

If there is a shred of proof for your theory, point it out.

-----

"No foreshadowing besides Quaithe repeatedly telling Dany that she must go to Asshai to get the truth, go East to get West, and pass beneath the Shadow to reach the light? No, no foreshadowing besides that at all."

I don't see how that has any bearing on you're theory. It says that the Shadow will be involved. How exactly does that connect with the idea that Azor Ahai came from Asshai and fought the Shadow rather than the Others???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites