Brienne's last word

[sgboss]

Also wanted to add this:

In speculating on future events and actions of characters in the series I think a few themes are apparent in GRRM's style after four books.

The principles of GRRM's writing in ASoIaF:

1. If a character is attractive, noble, or enticing: they will be killed, disfigured, or maimed.

2. If a character is ugly: they will be killed, disfigured or maimed.

3. If a character exhibits a strong quality, it will be removed from them: Jaime - prowess in battle, Catelyn - motherly-love, Sansa - innocence, Tyrion (spoiler).

4. Winter is coming. I'm talking to you, Jon, Bran and Dany.

5. GRRM will present us with a narrative that gives a situation only option A or B, then blindside with outcome H. e.g. Battle of King's Landing; Jaime's resolution of the Riverrun siege.

6. There is no easy path. For anyone. Dany.

7. Expect no fairy tale ending.

and of course,

8. No one, no one, is safe.

But lastly, I've re-read all the books alot, and if you pay attention to detail GRRM gives us alot of hidden clues as to whats going to happen next. The most abundant examples were the clues that Robb was going to die. This started way back when Dany had her vision of the wolf-headed king feasting with the dead in the Palace of the Undying. However its not limited to prophecies: an example is in Jaime's dinner with Roose Bolton. I didn't see it at the time but it was practically screaming that Robb would be betrayed.

Of course we sometimes can get misled: An example is in the metaphor used in the Tyrion chapter where Oberyn duels Gregor.

"The day was grey and windy. The sun was struggling to break through the clouds, but Tyrion could no more have said who was going to win that fight than the one on which his life depended."

"The Mountain snorted contemptuously, and came on... and in that moment the sun broke through the low clouds that had hidden the sky since dawn."

GRRM sets us up for an Oberyn victory, but we all know how that turned.

[Errant Bard]

In speculating on future events and actions of characters in the series I think a few themes are apparent in GRRM's style after four books.

I basically disagree with such a generalization, and in detail:

1. If a character is attractive, noble, or enticing: they will be killed, disfigured, or maimed.

Errrm: Sansa, Jon, Barristan, Dany, Gendry, Davos, Brynden, Melisandre, Gilly, Dalla, Irri, Jicqui, Daario, Septon Meribald, etc.

2. If a character is ugly: they will be killed, disfigured or maimed.

You generalize from only Tyrion, don't you? Shireen is still alive and whole, so is Hodor, or Patchface, Pycelle, Sandor.

Basically, some people are killed disfigured or maimed, but as they are far from being a majority, there's no rule to be drawn. Except that in time of war, a lot of people are wont to be killed, maimed or disfigured. Shocking.

3. If a character exhibits a strong quality, it will be removed from them: Jaime - prowess in battle, Catelyn - motherly-love, Sansa - innocence, Tyrion (spoiler).

Oh come on, that's merely change induced by time. I could mention the innocence lost when thinking of every teenager of the world. Many characters don't actually lose that "strong quality" consistently enough for it to be made some fast rule. See Arya, Barristan, Sandor, Jon, Bran, Davos, Stannis, Renly, Robert, and about 99% of the cast.

Also, no, Catelyn didn't lose her love, she lost her family, but never stopped loving it.

5. GRRM will present us with a narrative that gives a situation only option A or B, then blindside with outcome H. e.g. Battle of King's Landing; Jaime's resolution of the Riverrun siege.

How is that blindsiding? It only can surprise the blind. How can it made a rule, when half the situations don't correspond to that stereotype? That's the most nonsensical statement I've seen in a while, truly. I don't even see what the options A and B are supposed to be in your two examples, or when something with "options" so clear cut is supposed to happen. Is it when Sandor has to win the duel or die (and he wins?), when Ned Stark has to choose between betraying the truth or sacrificing Sansa (he saves Sansa), when Arya has to choose between being caught or not being caught (and she's not), or something?

I cannot disagree more with that point. GRRM has always been one of the most predictable authors I read, and there are no real shocking twists, just "option" brought to their logical conclusion (ex: piss of your bannermen, lose every symbol of power and still insist to fight? Of course you will get betrayed and killed, moron. Only in bad Fantasy are people so brainwashed they stick to the good guys no matter what, and nothign real wrong can evr happen to the good guy leadership)

6. There is no easy path. For anyone. Dany.

Dany is in bloody easymode to supreme power for the entire duration of her arc. In super-easy mode. What appears as a hardship is in reality always a boon (seriously, losing the barbarian overlord and its son, who when alive had the right to direct your whole life, not a demonstration of easy path?)

Let's not talk of apathetic Jon who gets everything for doing nothing more than sulking and having a famous father. No easy path? Like hell.

8. No one, no one, is safe.

Totally overblown. Mostly everyone of note is safe. Those who aren't safe are those who die in every other fantasy novel: the parents, the mentor, the support characters in the family. Like Hell Bran, Jon, Dany, Arya or Tyrion aren't safe. For a serie touted for its major death, ASOIAF is severely lacking in corpses. And it's normal: most protagonists have a bloody plot armour, it's obvious.

GRRM sets us up for an Oberyn victory, but we all know how that turned.

Hidden clues are right, except when they are wrong? That's not useful. Hindsight is always 100%. Before that we have some things that can develop one way... or the other. Big deal.

[sgboss]

Big surpise, I log in and see the Bard shooting down anything I say.

Dude, i read like 2 sentences of your response then couldn't be bothered anymore. Do you do anything else but shoot down people's theories? I figured I'd come here to enjoy conversation with othr fans of the series after waiting 5 yrs between books. you're probably a moderator and i'll get banned... if so, have fun being "king of the board". Maybe you should put that on a t-shirt.

BTW - That post was intended to be HUMOROUS. Lets try this again, "the-internets-are-serious-guy... HUMOROUS.

Get it?

No...(shakes head sadly) ... he doesn't...

But. Just to engage in the sort of intellectual self-gratification that you clearly enjoy:

I basically disagree with such a generalization, and in detail:

Errrm: Sansa, Jon, Barristan, Dany, Gendry, Davos, Brynden, Melisandre, Gilly, Dalla, Irri, Jicqui, Daario, Septon Meribald, etc.

You generalize from only Tyrion, don't you? Shireen is still alive and whole, so is Hodor, or Patchface, Pycelle, Sandor.

Basically, some people are killed disfigured or maimed, but as they are far from being a majority, there's no rule to be drawn. Except that in time of war, a lot of people are wont to be killed, maimed or disfigured. Shocking.

Jon - scarred across the face by an eagle. had his hand disfigured by fire.

Davos - ??? Dude. What??? You pick him as a beautiful character? He was maimed to begin with.

Your argument is so pointless.

Gilly? Dalla? Irri? How many readers actually care about them? Daario? Meribald? Why not reference "nameless stable boy from GoT"? How about Ned, Renly, Jaime, Loras.

Seriously you're using Patchface in your argument?

Should I have used the phrase "characters of any significant consequence" when I made my generalization?

Shireen. Seriously? Have you seen one thread where people give a crap about Shireen?

Errrm:

I'll just say it: arrogant.

Basically, some people are killed disfigured or maimed, but as they are far from being a majority, there's no rule to be drawn. Except that in time of war, a lot of people are wont to be killed, maimed or disfigured.

Lets go thru every hero prototype character we've seen in the book: Ned, beheaded. Renly, slain. Jaimee, maimed. Loras, disfigured. Jon, burned and scarred. Brienne, disfigured. Beric, killed multiply, scarred, disfigured.

Oh, but you're right... Quentyn Martell is just fine, so is Darkstar, so is Addam Marbrand. forget my argument. I'm sure you could come up with at least 10 minor characters to illustrate just how wrong I am.

Shocking.

I'll just say it again. Arrogant.

Also, no, Catelyn didn't lose her love, she lost her family, but never stopped loving it.

No.

(isn't that how you like to begin your responses to people?)

No.

Your statement is so wrong that I may need to karyotype you.

Catelyn was such a trusting soul she released Jaime on his word. Jaime. The archetype of distrust. Simply for the slim prospect of getting her daughters back.

Now she's hanging Brienne. Her trusted confidant.

Old Catelyn = blinded by love.

UnCat = blinded by hate.

Those equations were easy enough, weren't they? No? Got some convoluted argument to convince yourself otherwise? Good for you, bucky, good for you. You keep at it.

See Arya, Barristan, Sandor, Jon, Bran, Davos, Stannis, Renly, Robert, and about 99% of the cast.

Errrm: Sandor: lost his fearlessness at the Blackwater... lost his ruthlessness after the battle with Tickler & co. as evidenced by joining a freaking monastery; Renly: well... he's no longer beautiful and charismatic, now, 'cuz he's kinda dead...; Robert: also... dead, but as Robert and Ned put it, he was a shadow of his former self, here was the champion of the trident reduced to sending assassins after teen-aged girls. Jon: didn't he break his vows? Stannis: didn't he soften and allow Davos to live despite his treason with Edric?

Oh come on, that's merely change induced by time. I could mention the innocence lost when thinking of every teenager of the world. Many characters don't actually lose that "strong quality" consistently enough for it to be made some fast rule.

Yes, everyone in the real world changes with time, everyone has a coming of age. We're not talking about the real world: we're discussing fantasy novels. Allow me an analogy: LOTR. Sure Frodo had a coming of age, being burned out and retiring to the Grey Havens at the end of his quest. But lets look at the other main characters and if they "changed" over the books: Gandalf: no. Merry, Pippen: no, they just got swords. Sam: maybe a little, but his base quality, loyalty, was the same. Strider: same. Legolas, Gimli: same, just with more respect for the other' races. My tongue-in-cheek point was that in the ASoIaF books, characters lose idyllic qualities, rarely do they gain them.

Sure, when I generalize in a humorous quote, of course there are exceptions. You forgot Moonboy in your counterpoint examples, he's another model of unflappable consistency.

That's the most nonsensical statement I've seen in a while, truly.

I'll say it again. Arrogant.

At least you're consistent. No coming of age for you.

I don't even see what the options A and B are supposed to be in your two examples, or when something with "options" so clear cut is supposed to happen.

Jaime arrives at Riverrun. The Freys have been threatening to hang Edmure indefinitely. GRRM makes it seem like there are only two viable options: 1. actually hang Edmure, or 2. continue to hold him hostage. I did not see the option of releasing him to Riverrun, and I attributed that to good storytelling by GRRM.

Of course, a tactical genius such as yourself would have seen through such a thin ruse.

Good for you, Sparky, good for you.

I cannot disagree more with that point. GRRM has always been one of the most predictable authors I read, and there are no real shocking twists, just "option" brought to their logical conclusion (ex: piss of your bannermen, lose every symbol of power and still insist to fight? Of course you will get betrayed and killed, moron. Only in bad Fantasy are people so brainwashed they stick to the good guys no matter what, and nothign real wrong can evr happen to the good guy leadership)

If GRRM is soooo predictable, is that why you have 4000 posts speculating on future events?

6. There is no easy path. For anyone. Dany.

Dany is in bloody easymode to supreme power for the entire duration of her arc. In super-easy mode. What appears as a hardship is in reality always a boon (seriously, losing the barbarian overlord and its son, who when alive had the right to direct your whole life, not a demonstration of easy path?)

Errrm: that was my point. Dany's perceived hardships so far all happened in the beginning, and really weren't hardships at all. I was joking that some big catastrophe is looming.

If you had an open mind when you read that point you would have gotten the message.

Unfortunately, you seem to only read posts with the goal of shooting down some minor inconsistency and implying your intellectual superiority.

(shaking head sadly)

OK, I'm finished with responding to your post. And to you.

When you repeatedly answer people's posts with pseudointellectual scorn and disdain you insult them. Period.

Some of your posts are intelligent, but your arrogance far outweighs anything clever you have to say.

If I'm not banned, do me the courtesy of refraining from replying to my future posts. Or at least use some politeness.

[Errant Bard]

... I'm no moderator, and disagreeing never had anyone banned. I'm sorry for failing to understand hidden messages, for not getting that humorous means meaningless, or for posting when I disagree.

Well, though, rereading, I sound like a jerk (not the first time I guess) so I present my sincere apologies for the tone I used.

[Phostopheles]

Hi, I'm new to these forums, first post.

So I've had two possibilities nagging at me while reading this thread, and I'm not sure if either is completely fleshed out. Feel free to refute or support as you wish.

1) It was mentioned in Podrick Payne's backstory that it was his name that saved him from being hung for stealing. Apart from the fact that the word "Payne" in itself would register little meaning in the mind of anyone listening (probably being interpreted as the word "pain") and the fact that the Paynes are Lannister bannermen and thus owed no quarter as far as the Brotherhood is concerned, everything seems set up for Podrick to be Brienne's saving grace. If there are ways of reasoning around these two admittedly enormous obstacles, I'd love to hear about them.

2) Brienne's word is inconsequential to her fate. She dies anyway. What matters is not that the word saved her, but that someone else heard it, to be recalled later as an important plot point. Honestly I'm finding it hard to believe any word could save Brienne; Lady Stoneheart seems determined to hang her as a traitor and it seems doubtful that a single word exists that could change her mind. Weighing the options, on one hand we'd never see the Brienne/Jaime relationship further developed, but on the other hand it would add a whole new layer to the Jaime/Catelyn dynamic if that's ever revisited. The major hole in this theory is that the word would still have to be important, or else it would be another of Martin's red herrings. If it is important, why aren't there any important figures present to hear it? We have no one even close to a POV character around unless Ser Hyle magically becomes a key figure or Gendry was watching from the shadows. It certainly leaves a lot of options open for Brienne's word to be mentioned in passing to one of the protagonists somewhere down the line, but even this is a slippery slope. If no word would save her, what word would be memetically fit enough to coincidentally make it to whomever it might concern, if anyone?

Just some random thoughts...

[Nafro]

Brienne is stupid. She should have just been like "Sure I'll kill Jaime." And then bolted.

[Jo498]

I don't really know what that word may be, but I expect Brienne to survive. Otherwise I'd be very dissapointed that she has been developped extensively in FfC for no purpose in the further plot. (I liked her far better before she did have her own POV, but still find her in interesting character.)

And her death (unlike Eddard's) doesn't seem to serve the plot either. Not one of the major characters would care, except for Jaime and their "relationship" has not been important enough for her death to really have an impact. What is he supposed to do? Start a revenge quest against the BwB?

I think the only way for GRRM to redeem the mess of Un-Cat and the far to extensive Brienne arc in FfC is her survival and hopefully involvement in the more important plotlines in the future.

[Yarl Snow]

Oh my, I didn't realize this was yet another Brienne's-word-thread. =P Apparently there is still a lot to say on this subject.

You know my pet crackpot theory is that Brienne dies and comes back, and is actually the second vision of Dany in "Bride of Fire" :P

The corpse has a gender in the vision: "a sad smile on his grey lips."

[Dolorous J]

I think she shouts:

Virgin !!!!

I'm still a virgin , noooooooooooooo!!

[Mickey2093]

at this point, i'd be satisfied if we found out the word was "assholes!" - i don't care anymore - i just want to know what it was and move on.

grim (grrm) has taken so long with dance that HE probably doesn't even remember what the hell the point of the whole brienne storyline was.

[Errant Bard]

Oh my, I didn't realize this was yet another Brienne's-word-thread. =P Apparently there is still a lot to say on this subject.

Yet another? It's an old-ish thread resurrected (only 5 months old.) :P

It's always the same things repeated in a loop, also.

The corpse has a gender in the vision: "a sad smile on his grey lips."

Not exactly :

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

These are visions interpreted by Dany, and Brienne has been taken for a man before, even before she got disfigured. Also, when not sure sure about a gender, I believe you use the masculine form, in English, don't you?

Well, anyway, since it's the "bride of fire" triplet, a woman would come out of left field, and it's most likely something like Theon Greyjoy (and no, even then lips smiling sadly are not joy anymore than the rainbow guard was a reference to Renly's sexual orientations) but I like the idea of dead Brienne sailing.

[Phostopheles]

Ooooooooooo multiquote. Shiny.

I don't really know what that word may be, but I expect Brienne to survive. Otherwise I'd be very dissapointed that she has been developped extensively in FfC for no purpose in the further plot. (I liked her far better before she did have her own POV, but still find her in interesting character.)

And her death (unlike Eddard's) doesn't seem to serve the plot either. Not one of the major characters would care, except for Jaime and their "relationship" has not been important enough for her death to really have an impact. What is he supposed to do? Start a revenge quest against the BwB?

I think the only way for GRRM to redeem the mess of Un-Cat and the far to extensive Brienne arc in FfC is her survival and hopefully involvement in the more important plotlines in the future.

I'd be disappointed that she only got POV chapters in FfC, but she's been developing since CoK. I think that dead Brienne has just as much potential for developing Jaime and Catelyn as live Brienne. We know Jaime isn't far away and that Lady Stoneheart needs to die eventually. I'm just operating under the assumption that since aside from Jon and Dany no one has ever run their long term plans to completion, more likely than not the Brienne/Jaime thing will never come to fruition and ending it now might actually be just as good, if not better, for both characters than letting it go on.

Yet another? It's an old-ish thread resurrected (only 5 months old.) :P

It's always the same things repeated in a loop, also.

Not exactly :

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

These are visions interpreted by Dany, and Brienne has been taken for a man before, even before she got disfigured. Also, when not sure sure about a gender, I believe you use the masculine form, in English, don't you?

Well, anyway, since it's the "bride of fire" triplet, a woman would come out of left field, and it's most likely something like Theon Greyjoy (and no, even then lips smiling sadly are not joy anymore than the rainbow guard was a reference to Renly's sexual orientations) but I like the idea of dead Brienne sailing.

You talking about dead Brienne, or unBrienne? That would be an interesting twist. Brienne is killed, Stoneheart has a surge of pity looking at her corpse, and BAM. One more step towards the inevitable zombiepocalypse. (I jest)

[Errant Bard]

You talking about dead Brienne, or unBrienne? That would be an interesting twist. Brienne is killed, Stoneheart has a surge of pity looking at her corpse, and BAM. One more step towards the inevitable zombiepocalypse. (I jest)

Well, of a dead Brienne able to go and sail a boat, and be marked for a "dread" encounter with Dany. "Undead" covers those case, yes :P

I'm not sure it would be such a twist at this point. You focus the resolve of your victim, then you resurrect her, and the zombification magic does the work of keeping the victim on target. Work better than keeping an hostage, and fits the situation, with BwBer unlikely to let her down no matter the word, and Catelyn staying apparently in the cave. When you have a red priest doing your bidding, it's not too difficult, and there's only benefits to the action. Emmon Frey would be a bit surprised to find an army of dead Stark bannermen slaughtering his house.

[Phostopheles]

Well, of a dead Brienne able to go and sail a boat, and be marked for a "dread" encounter with Dany. "Undead" covers those case, yes :P

I'm not sure it would be such a twist at this point. You focus the resolve of your victim, then you resurrect her, and the zombification magic does the work of keeping the victim on target. Work better than keeping an hostage, and fits the situation, with BwBer unlikely to let her down no matter the word, and Catelyn staying apparently in the cave. When you have a red priest doing your bidding, it's not too difficult, and there's only benefits to the action. Emmon Frey would be a bit surprised to find an army of dead Stark bannermen slaughtering his house.

I never thought of the corpse as being alive, though. Kinda feel a bit myopic in light of the limitless possibilities of zombification.

The thing is, I still don't know how the magic works. Why did Beric have to give up his life to resurrect Catelyn? Would Catelyn have to do the same? How reproducible is this zombie spell? I honestly don't know. I like the theory, though, even if it completely trivializes the cliffhanger.

[Yarl Snow]

Yet another? It's an old-ish thread resurrected (only 5 months old.) :P

Why, so it is. But my statement is still grammatically correct. =P This is the third thread I see, and so, yet another.

Not exactly :

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

These are visions interpreted by Dany, and Brienne has been taken for a man before, even before she got disfigured. Also, when not sure sure about a gender, I believe you use the masculine form, in English, don't you?

Well, anyway, since it's the "bride of fire" triplet, a woman would come out of left field, and it's most likely something like Theon Greyjoy (and no, even then lips smiling sadly are not joy anymore than the rainbow guard was a reference to Renly's sexual orientations) but I like the idea of dead Brienne sailing.

I don't think that you may use a specific gender if you do not know it, but I may be wrong. However, I do not think GRRM would write "his" unless he meant it as a clue. If it is indeed a "her", then it would look exceedingly wrong, even if it is correct by some obscure rule that most english speaking people have not heard of. Also, it translates very poorly. But yes, Brienne has a androgynous appearance.

I've tried to puzzle out who could fit that description, but come up with nothing. Bright eyes, grey lips and a man. Must the man be dead already? If not, could be Aemon, even though I doubt he would be standing. He is a Targaryen, though, which fits the other two (Rhaegar/Lewyn, Rhaego). Could be someone we have not seen yet.

I do not think UnBrienne is too strange of a theory. When they were hanging her, that was one of the thoughts I had for her future. UnCat breathes into Brienne, making for a grand new leader of BwB.

Ooooooooooo multiquote. Shiny.

Multiquote is a myth. It doesn't work. At least not for me. I multiquote manually.

[Yarl Snow]

I never thought of the corpse as being alive, though. Kinda feel a bit myopic in light of the limitless possibilities of zombification.

The thing is, I still don't know how the magic works. Why did Beric have to give up his life to resurrect Catelyn? Would Catelyn have to do the same? How reproducible is this zombie spell? I honestly don't know. I like the theory, though, even if it completely trivializes the cliffhanger.

Bright eyes suggests that the corpse is in fact alive. Or.. "alive", I should say.

As I understand it, the Red Priests have a special ritual that was called something like "the last breath", which Thoros performed on Beric, expecting nothing special. But Beric awoke. Thoros would not do it on Catelyn, because she was too long dead, and so Beric sacrificed his life flame to give to Catelyn, because of the vow he made to Arya. I believe only through the ritual can new resurrections be done, but in some cases, as we saw, it can be transferred.

[Phostopheles]

I do not think UnBrienne is too strange of a theory. When they were hanging her, that was one of the thoughts I had for her future. UnCat breathes into Brienne, making for a grand new leader of BwB.

Seeing this typed out, it feels too uninspired. Sure, the motivation's there...UnCat not wanting to live as a corpse any longer and pass on the burden to someone she completely trusts to save her children. But Beric did it first, and if UnCat is any indication, the moment Brienne hangs we won't be getting POV chapters anymore and her character will become just as "dampened" "muted" uninvolved.

[Patrick Tully]

Ooooooooooo multiquote. Shiny.

...

Multiquote is a myth. It doesn't work. At least not for me. I multiquote manually.

Hmm... I never actually tried it, but it seems to work okay. /end test

[Patrick Tully]

I haven't really considered un-Cat being lonely for undead companionship, but I'm thinking someone living would have to give the "kiss." I could be totally off base, but my assumption is that un-Cat's result would be the same as Beric's - an exchange. I would be okay with this, but I don't expect her/(it?) to make that choice for Brienne.

I was okay with un-Cat while in theory she was killing Freys, but less so when we finally saw what she had done to the BWB.

[Yarl Snow]

Hmm... I never actually tried it, but it seems to work okay. /end test

Ah, I see.. you have to click multiquote on each post, and then "Add reply" at the bottom, not "Reply" on a post. Oh well, back to the thread.