The Wiseman´s Fear VI (Spoilers and discussion)

[Tuco]

I like your ideas, Tuco! Very nice.

Thanks!

The next thing i'm trying to figure out is why the Chandrian (at least Cinder) was trying to destabilize Alveron by stealing the taxes. I doubt Cinder really needed the money, and stealing the taxes really put a strain on Alveron's dealing with King Roderick. That, in conjunction with Caudicus (maybe) poisoning him, it's obvious someone has it out for Alveron. Was Caudicus working for Cinder, or was he actually a good guy (Amyr), and both sides are trying to mess with Alveron? Or as someone else already mentioned, was Caudicus making alchemical medicine and wrongly accused by Kvothe, which is why the cathae said Alveron was close to the Amyr and it would be funny when Kvothe found out who it was.

[Watson-Crick]

The next thing i'm trying to figure out is why the Chandrian (at least Cinder) was trying to destabilize Alveron by stealing the taxes. I doubt Cinder really needed the money, and stealing the taxes really put a strain on Alveron's dealing with King Roderick. That, in conjunction with Caudicus (maybe) poisoning him, it's obvious someone has it out for Alveron. Was Caudicus working for Cinder, or was he actually a good guy (Amyr), and both sides are trying to mess with Alveron? Or as someone else already mentioned, was Caudicus making alchemical medicine and wrongly accused by Kvothe, which is why the cathae said Alveron was close to the Amyr and it would be funny when Kvothe found out who it was.

With regards to the Cthaeh's "stick by the Maer and he'll lead you to their door", I just thought of this: Hermes' staff is the Caduceus (the one with wings and two snakes spiralling around it). Sounds a bit like Caudicus, doesn't it? It also has the tie-in with the Cthaeh being a snake-like thing wrapped around a tree.

If he ever reads the forum, PR is probably ROFL at all our whacky theories!

[thistlepong]

Thanks!

The next thing i'm trying to figure out is why the Chandrian (at least Cinder) was trying to destabilize Alveron by stealing the taxes. I doubt Cinder really needed the money, and stealing the taxes really put a strain on Alveron's dealing with King Roderick. That, in conjunction with Caudicus (maybe) poisoning him, it's obvious someone has it out for Alveron. Was Caudicus working for Cinder, or was he actually a good guy (Amyr), and both sides are trying to mess with Alveron? Or as someone else already mentioned, was Caudicus making alchemical medicine and wrongly accused by Kvothe, which is why the cathae said Alveron was close to the Amyr and it would be funny when Kvothe found out who it was.

Noting the sword by the pool and connecting it to Felurian's glade was inspired; and it lends a lot of heft to the folks who saw similarities between the Cthaeh's tree and the Sword Tree. It also reifies Faen as sort of adjacent to but coequal with The Four Corners. Thanks for the contribution. It kind of makes sense in a way that training at the Sword tree might allow one to dodge the Ctaheh to grab a flower...

I took Caudicus to be Cyphus/Scyphus. Kvothe notes the blue flames in his lab. While he brushes it off, with textual support from the early stuff with Ben, it's still singled out. At that point Kvothe hasn't seen Cinder/Ferule again, nor has he encountered Felurian. He doesn't believe in fairies and probably doubts his own memories.

If that's the case then the Seven do seem to have designs on Alveron. But it's difficult to grasp why, whether they're trying to prevent him from acting or forcing a conflict with Roderic. Simply killing him would have been easy enough, even without announcing their presence, so my guess would be the latter.

Folks have speculated that the Penitent King's soldiers bear Alveron's colors. Roderic provides a likely king for Kvothe. And the Seven seem to be associated with destabilization in the stories: burning cities, poisoning wells, turning men against one another.

[lanceschaubert]

Another possibility I think would be that since the Chtaeh is supposed to say the things that would bring the most destruction and havoc, maybe he's taking his time to calculate the multiple possiblities (a bit like a computer playing chess) and choose the one with the worst outcome.

Yup.

So a new idea hit me after a re-read of WMF. When Kvothe returns from his time with Felurian and meets up with his party at the inn, Dedan (I thnik) mentions that they followed his trail and found his sword "by the pool", and when Kvothe was with Felurian they stayed near a pool. So I think that it is the same pool and that the Fae is right on top of the mortal world. Which leads me to the Tree that the cathea lives in is the same tree that the adem worship, and that they are the protectors of the tree in the mortal world just like there are guards (can't remember their name) protecting the Tree in the Fea. The protectors in the Fae were said to use bow and arrow, and would shoot someone from a great distance, and kill any birds that ate at the corpse, and the story of the founder of the adem school was an exceptional archer, and at the original school bow and arrow was the main weapon. So the Adem were originally the protectors of the tree in the mortal world, but it's been so long they've forgotten their true purpose, but having built their culture and school around the tree serves the same basic function. Also if you look at the Lethani vs the Cathae, the cathae see all possible 'paths' where as the adem are constantly being taught to follow the one true path, a counter to the cathae.

In the same vein I also think that Iax (Jax) is locked away behind the stone door in the Archanum, and that the school cropped up in the mortal world around the Fae prison where Iax is held. The masters protect the stone door in the mortal world, just like the adem protect the tree.

Great find. Great work. I had wondered about that as well, the doors of stone obviously are the intersections, but I had zero proof.

There is also the duality (if you want to call it that) of the flowers around the Cthaeh that heal vs. the leaves of the Sword tree which cut.

Agreed. Would the four corners also parallel the four seasons/times of day in the Fae as well? Rothfuss has mentioned how the four corners are the four big cities. Would those cities parallel the time-locations in Fae?

With regards to the Cthaeh's "stick by the Maer and he'll lead you to their door", I just thought of this: Hermes' staff is the Caduceus (the one with wings and two snakes spiralling around it). Sounds a bit like Caudicus, doesn't it? It also has the tie-in with the Cthaeh being a snake-like thing wrapped around a tree.

That's possible. It's also possible that the Hermes connection points to Mercury, as he is something of an Alchemist. Mercury/quicksilver being the main reagent and catalyst in the opus alchemicum. It would, of course, need to show up elsewhere to be consistent, but Caudicus is certainly something of a catalyst for Kvothe, launching him in an entirely different direction. Sometimes alchemy writers bring Mercury onto the stage only once - near the main turning point of their work.

I took Caudicus to be Cyphus/Scyphus. Kvothe notes the blue flames in his lab. While he brushes it off, with textual support from the early stuff with Ben, it's still singled out. At that point Kvothe hasn't seen Cinder/Ferule again, nor has he encountered Felurian. He doesn't believe in fairies and probably doubts his own memories.

If that's the case then the Seven do seem to have designs on Alveron. But it's difficult to grasp why, whether they're trying to prevent him from acting or forcing a conflict with Roderic. Simply killing him would have been easy enough, even without announcing their presence, so my guess would be the latter.

Folks have speculated that the Penitent King's soldiers bear Alveron's colors. Roderic provides a likely king for Kvothe. And the Seven seem to be associated with destabilization in the stories: burning cities, poisoning wells, turning men against one another.

Yeah, that's more likely the case with Caudicus, I think. I like your connection of Chandrian and Chaos, especially when you see the Cthaeh prodding Kvothe closer to them.

[lanceschaubert]

And now for something completely different:

Kingkiller Nigreddo: He said to the stone, "Break!"

[Aemon Blackfyre]

Hi guys

Doing a re-read i saw something that i don't know if anyone mentioned before. The soldiers that assaulted Kvothe in the end of the book were using the same collors Alveron's personal guard. Maybe the Maershon is now the king. idk

Here is the passage describing Alveron's guard colors.

WMF HC edition chapter 64 page 430

"I was halfway into the hall when i saw the guard standing at attention outside my door. He was one of Alveron's own, clad in sapphire and ivory."

WMF HC edition chapter 136 page 891

"Two soldiers came in, hunched against the weather, their swords sticking out like tails behind them. Dark spatters of rain spotted the fabric of their blue and white tabards."

And they receive in gold royals ( vintas currency ). I don't really know if that's important at all, but caught my eye the king's soldiers using Alveron's colors.

Edit: just read up there that:

"Folks have speculated that the Penitent King's soldiers bear Alveron's colors" (thistlepong) so this can be sort of evidence XD

Reading a bit further back on the topic someone else mentioned this already, leaving it there anyway.

[Aemon Blackfyre]

Crackpot:

Assuming Kvothe is a Lackless and if that meant he is before Jakis in the line of succession his fake death could mean the king killed is himself.

I was thinking something along this line but i can't fit all the pieces together. Something to do with the Jakis plan for the crown and Meluan getting killed so no Lackless heir can be born and Alveron getting the kingdom by sheer force.

Edit: If Alveron have the power to give titles and lands maybe he could give Kvothe his Lackless name "back" ( since he's a bastard for all legal purposes ) and make him king. Maybe Alveron doesn't want to be king himself cause he is too disturbed to rule since he lost Meluan. But Kvothe does not want it either and fakes his death thus leaving Alveron the crown. He then proceeds to take revenge on Jakis and allies setting Vintas on a civil war. All Kvothe's fault for kingkilling himself.

[Tears of Lys]

While it **is** crackpot, I do sorta like the theory that Kvothe kingkilled himself. It's too big of a stretch, though, for Alveron to be too disturbed to rule. And I like that Alveron would have the power to legitimize someone.

The only part about this I don't like, and it's a big one, is that this would make Kvothe as big of a Gary Stu as some folks have been claiming he is.

[Aemon Blackfyre]

Maybe Alveron does not want the crown for himself because he knew he would have to do something about the Jakis and he does not want to spend money on something that would not be simply solved (he does talk to Kvothe about how much a well trained soldier can cost ) and take the easier way passing the responsability to someone else . Maybe kvothe used Stapes debt to him to get in contact with the Maer to claim his name and the Maer refused to do it getting Meluan killed to prevent a Lackless heir thus the sorrow of the penitent king.

[TeaSpoon]

About four threads ago, I argued that Denna is not being abused by Master Ash, but rather being taught swordsmanship. What the Tree guy said about Denna could equally apply to Kvothe during his time with the Adem. Just now I read the chapter where Denna asked about magic and she mentioned a form of magic where writing something down made it true. I think she was being taught this form of magic by Ash and she wanted impartial verification.

It seems to me that if this writing magic actually works, it would be to naming what sygaldry is to sympathy. Denna started using Yllish story knots to weave words into her hair, which suggests that Yllish knots might be used to write down true names and make them permanent.

This brings me to the ever-burning lamp. Using sympathy, it's possible to make an every-glowing lamp. Sadly, Kilvin is not satisfied with mere glowing. He wants an ever-BURNING lamp, which seems to be outside the reach of sygaldry. This makes sense. Sympathy and sygaldry only change energy from one form to another. With an efficient sympathetic bond, it would be easy to create a sympathy lamp that converts ambient heat into a soft glow without dropping the temperature to such a degree that the lamp stops glowing. A flame is a different thing. A flame produces light and, more importantly, heat in excess of ambient heat. You need a fuel-source to create a flame. An ever-burning lamp would need an infinite amount of fuel. Without an infinite amount of fuel, it's impossible to create an ever-burning lamp.

At least, not using sympathy.

Naming works on a different level than sympathy. There is no mention of energy and efficiency. The namer merely speaks and stuff happens. When Kvothe complained that naming seems to be useless and he could light a brazier using only sympathy, Elxa Dal pointed out that he couldn't do it without a link and not “Without a binding, a source of energy...”

He trailed off there, at the end, implying that naming allows for fire without fuel. Kvothe completely misses the importance of having an infinite source of heat, which is profoundly stupid of him, considering that he's in the advanced sympathy class, where he regularly has to fight over every little thaum of heat. The name of fire would make a sympathist infinitely more powerful.

And if one could write down the name of fire, one could command a flame to burn forever.

If you look at the physics involved, the ever-glowing lamp is telling the second law of thermodynamics to take a hike. If you're able to convert heat back into motion, it's possible to create a perpetual motion machine. The ever-glowing lamp could potentially last for infinity, outliving the stars themselves. The ever-burning lamp, on the other hand, throws conservation of energy out of the window. It's a source of infinite energy and with it no one would have to worry about something as silly as the heat death of the universe.

With this in mind, isn't it interesting that there's Yllish writing on the Leocles Box?

[Aemon Blackfyre]

Just throwing something about the Adem out there. Learning about "Saicere" or Caesura ("to break, to catch, and to fly.") something stands out pretty clear. "First came Chael, who shaped me in fire for an unknown purpose. He carried me then cast me aside" this is the shaper and first holder of the sword. After this we have only the name of the second holder and a huge gap before another name appears ( according to Kvothe at least 30 names but i assume more since he says after those 30 the list became simply boring until...) "Next came Finol of the clear and shining eye, much beloved of Dulcen. She herself slew two daruna, then was killed by gremmen at the Drossen Tor."

Kvothe knows the sword is old at least two thousand years old, but if the sword was made by a shaper it precedes the fae (the race) and it precedes the creation war. It was probably held at least 5 years by each owner and thus at least 150 years before Drossen Tor.

Wich is confirmed by Shehyn. The Adem are direct the descendants of the original empire. They're the survivors of Lanre's betrayal of the 8 cities. (7 + Myr Tariniel). But wich city?

Besides that,also according to Shehyn the Lethani is even older "This is a story of years ago, before this schoool. Before the path of the sword tree. Before any Adem knew of the Lethani. This is a story of the beginning of such things." Aethe sought mastery over bow and arrow, according to Felurian the shapers thought that way. Then maybe Rethe was a Namer. The Ribbon is guided through/by the wind to Aethe's chest. But again, this was before the creation war, probably even before Iax stealing the moon when namers and shapers co-existed.

There's not really a point in all this but it is quite amusing the thought of a "race"/civilization that is direct descendant of old times and that still has some knowledge of the old ways.

P.s.: just posted this over here http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/03/sleeping-under-the-wagon-more-spoilers-for-patrick-rothfusss-the-wise-mans-fear# copying it here.

[thistlepong]

Just throwing something about the Adem out there. Learning about "Saicere" or Caesura ("to break, to catch, and to fly.") something stands out pretty clear. "First came Chael, who shaped me in fire for an unknown purpose. He carried me then cast me aside" this is the shaper and first holder of the sword. After this we have only the name of the second holder and a huge gap before another name appears ( according to Kvothe at least 30 names but i assume more since he says after those 30 the list became simply boring until...) "Next came Finol of the clear and shining eye, much beloved of Dulcen. She herself slew two daruna, then was killed by gremmen at the Drossen Tor."

Kvothe knows the sword is old at least two thousand years old, but if the sword was made by a shaper it precedes the fae (the race) and it precedes the creation war. It was probably held at least 5 years by each owner and thus at least 150 years before Drossen Tor.

Wich is confirmed by Shehyn. The Adem are direct the descendants of the original empire. They're the survivors of Lanre's betrayal of the 8 cities. (7 + Myr Tariniel). But wich city?

Besides that,also according to Shehyn the Lethani is even older "This is a story of years ago, before this schoool. Before the path of the sword tree. Before any Adem knew of the Lethani. This is a story of the beginning of such things." Aethe sought mastery over bow and arrow, according to Felurian the shapers thought that way. Then maybe Rethe was a Namer. The Ribbon is guided through/by the wind to Aethe's chest. But again, this was before the creation war, probably even before Iax stealing the moon when namers and shapers co-existed.

There's not really a point in all this but it is quite amusing the thought of a "race"/civilization that is direct descendant of old times and that still has some knowledge of the old ways.

P.s.: just posted this over here http://www.tor.com/b...wise-mans-fear# copying it here.

I have a post somewhere in the previous threads that shows the work for this, but...

Saicere was probably shaped in fire by Chael something like five centuries before Drossen Tor. It was likely created for the Creation War when Ergen attacked Faen.

The Adem certainly seem likely descendants of Ergen, though they're not identical to the pre-Aleph Ruach. The folks who hung back from the big event were choosing something as well. The Adem, the Ruh, the early nomads that settled the Shalda Mountains... were all probably resultant or refuges from the war.. The Adem have a philosophical link the others do not, and probably the ability to manipulate the wind. Rethe certainly seems to know its name, and they're not surprised by Kvothe's test.

[lanceschaubert]

Crackpot:

Assuming Kvothe is a Lackless and if that meant he is before Jakis in the line of succession his fake death could mean the king killed is himself.... Kvothe's fault for kingkilling himself.

Though I haven't mentioned it in a while, this is the main thrust and concept of the Alchemy posts. Alchemy points to death to wed the contraries. Kvothe's waiting to die (now four times over). I've thought all along that he's a king in some form or fashion and will die at his own hand.

But that doesn't make it any less crackpot, as I pointed out in the disclaimers ad nauseum.

It seems to me that if this writing magic actually works....the ever-burning lamp. ...Elxa Dal pointed out that he couldn't do it without a link and not “Without a binding, a source of energy...” ...With this in mind, isn't it interesting that there's Yllish writing on the Leocles Box?

Checks out in my book. I've wondered whether the shaping happened literarily while naming happens orally. This would fit.

... "First came Chael, who shaped me in fire for an unknown purpose...

In the same vein, isn't there writing on the sword?

What about the trunk with no key at the foot of Kvothe/Kote's bed?

[Aemon Blackfyre]

I have a post somewhere in the previous threads that shows the work for this, but...

Saicere was probably shaped in fire by Chael something like five centuries before Drossen Tor. It was likely created for the Creation War when Ergen attacked Faen.

The Adem certainly seem likely descendants of Ergen, though they're not identical to the pre-Aleph Ruach. The folks who hung back from the big event were choosing something as well. The Adem, the Ruh, the early nomads that settled the Shalda Mountains... were all probably resultant or refuges from the war.. The Adem have a philosophical link the others do not, and probably the ability to manipulate the wind. Rethe certainly seems to know its name, and they're not surprised by Kvothe's test.

Sorry, it's hard to see all the topics to see what's been mentioned before. But i guessed something like 5 centuries or so to but for the sake of argument i just calculated the "at least 150 years before Drossen Tor" though i disagree it was created for the war (since the sword was created with unknown purpose and then cast aside).

But since you mentioned the other people this brings up another question. What is Felurian ? She clearly states she was on the walls of Muriella before the Fae realm creation wich was before the war and before the faen people. If she isn't Fae what is she?

[lanceschaubert]

While it **is** crackpot, I do sorta like the theory that Kvothe kingkilled himself.

This also opens the door to several interps of "kingkiller" :

1. Kvothe killed a king: King-killer
   
2. Kvothe is a king who killed somebody: Kingkiller
   
3. Kvothe figuratively killed the kingdom/chance at kingship: King killer
   

#2 and #3 allow for Kvothe to be king.

[Aemon Blackfyre]

This also opens the door to several interps of "kingkiller" :

1. Kvothe killed a king: King-killer
   
2. Kvothe is a king who killed somebody: Kingkiller
   
3. Kvothe figuratively killed the kingdom/chance at kingship: King killer
   

#2 and #3 allow for Kvothe to be king.

I do think this is exactly the sort of thing PR would do confuse us. I do like #3 the best

[thistlepong]

Sorry, it's hard to see all the topics to see what's been mentioned before. But i guessed something like 5 centuries or so to but for the sake of argument i just calculated the "at least 150 years before Drossen Tor" though i disagree it was created for the war (since the sword was created with unknown purpose and then cast aside).

But since you mentioned the other people this brings up another question. What is Felurian ? She clearly states she was on the walls of Muriella before the Fae realm creation wich was before the war and before the faen people. If she isn't Fae what is she?

No worries. I just wanted to avoid seeming like the numbers came from nowhere. I think the war is the unknown purpose, Even the books that mentioned Ergen and the War as legends have crumbled to dust. But it may not be germane to your point.

I'm going to call the citizens of Ergen Ruach. I don't think the Ruach of "Tehlu's Watchful Eye" were remarkable for any reason other than that they were Creation War era beings. Selitos, Tehlu & Pals, and the folks who hung back were of a cloth. Felurian existed before Faen, before the moon was stolen, and before the war. She essentially moved to Faen before Ergen brought War to them and apparently remained there. Other folks have suggested she was a shaper construct. One suggested she had an agenda entirely here own, but never elaborated on it. In the absence of other data, she, like many other pre-war Ruach, chose Faen, shaping, and whatever else. And she survived.

Welcome back, TeaSpoon. Rothfuss said there were six kinds of magic. We spent some time arguing about what they might be; a lot of that over whether naming, shaping, and grammarie were essentially the same thing. If they are, the six would be Sympathy, Sygaldry, Achemy, Naming, Glamourie, and Knotwork.

[Aemon Blackfyre]

Someone out there that can help me understand all this info?

Drossen Tor happens, years later Lanre's betrayal and the birth of Haliax. Iax is beyond the doors of stone at this time. Lyra is dead. Aleph is the only one who's better at names the One-eyed Selitos. The Ruach gather and Selitos asks Lord(?) Aleph:

"Lord, if i do this thing will i be given the power to avenge the loss of the shining city? Can i confound the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian who killed the innocent and burned my beloved Myr Tariniel?" Selitos, NoTW c.28

"No. All personal things must be set aside, and you must punish or reward only what you yourself witness from this day forth." Aleph, NoTW c.28

So Aleph denies Selitos the power to go after the Chandrian yet Selitos wants to find the Chandrian and stop them before they do more evil instead of just punishing them. Some of the Ruach agree with Selitos and they start the Amyr stating:

"I must refuse, for i cannot forget. But I will oppose him with these faithful Ruach beside me. I see their hearts are pure. We will be called the Amyr in memory of the ruined city. We will confound Lanre and any who follow him. Nothing will prevent us from attaining the greater good." Selitos, NoTW c.28

Now what is kinda interesting.

"Most of the Ruach hung back from Selitos, too. They were afraid and they did not wish to become involved in great matters."

They hung back from Seltios to what was the other thing the Ruach hung back from ? Aleph's offer maybe? I think so because what follows is the birth of the 9 angels(?).

Tehlu, Tall Kirel, Deah, Enlas, Fair Geisa, Lecelte, Imet, Ordal, Andan; Tehlu being the greatest of them all. Their purpose is justice to the world but they're no longer part of it, they cannot be seen by mortal sight "only the most powerful and only then with great difficulty and at great peril" But where are they then? They're just invisible and omnipresent? Tehlu states he will leave this world behind to better serve it by serving Aleph.

But then we have Trapis story. At first it makes sense because Tehlu has "justice foremost in his heart" but then we have a different story. According to Trapis this was between 400 and 1000 years wich is at least awkward. Encanis is the exact description of Haliax (face all in shadows). This all happens is Atur but it's awkward the resemblance of the 7 cities and one that survives ( no mention of Myr Tariniel ). And then Tehlu and Encanis die but probably to arise again soon.

Of course the last one is a story entirely based on one of the angels who has the powers that match Skarpi's tale wich is an awkward coincidence.

What do you think then? Isn't it strange that the powers of Tehlu (the god) and his pursuit off justice are almost identical to the Tehlu (the angel). What's the role of the tehlin church in all this? They aknowledge the possible existence of the leader of the Chandrian (encanis/Haliax) but not of the Chandrian itself why's that? According to Skarpi's story the Amyr are simple Ruach, powerful but no greater then the other people of their time. Then what's the difference between the Ruach and the humans ? Felurian states that there were never human Amyr, those were like kids in their parents clothes (something in these lines) is the diferrence that humans lost the Ruach "awakeness" (they saw things deeply) but if so this implies all Ruach were namers of sort. Are the human Amyr something entirely different from the originals? Their purpose was confound (not destroy, why?) the chandrian this was their greater good and nothing would stop them in their purpose. The human Amyr are only mentioned as seeking the greater good(not sure about this one). Kvothe only conects the Amyr and the Chandrian because he heard Haliax. If the human amyr are a continuation of the originals then why would they merge with the tehlin church? and why were they disbanded?

Too many questions and no awsers, anyone has any insight on these?

[jumbles]

Encanis is the exact description of Haliax (face all in shadows).

I think Encanis exhibited signs of multiple (maybe all) of the Chandrian, not just Haliax. Besides his face being hidden in shadows, he also killed crops and left a chill where he passed.

[JezDynamite]

Hi everyone

First time posting here. I've really enjoyed reading the majority of the 6 threads of discussions and they are brilliant. Though I wont deny I skipped a few pages. Together with taking part in the Tor reread, I'm definitely overloading my brain with Four Corner's theories!

@thistlepong - Hi. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind posting your errata again please? I saw it in one of the earlier threads and I wasn't sure if it had grown. I may have something to add to it (the missing days between Kvothe leaving Tarbean and attending his first admissions interview).

Also, does anyone think similarly to me about the story that Kvothe had to trick a demon to win his heart's desire, and fight/kill an angel to keep it? My take is that it is an embellished story that the Chronicler heard at some point in the past. At no point in time does Kvothe admit to any events like this actually happening. It just struck me as being another fantastical story, just like the ones Old Cob tells.