Bran's Assassin

[Dave Zenz]

Since I began reading these forums I have noticed debate on many topics. I read the story one way while others came to a different conclusion. Honestly I like it! Upon rereading the books I often noticed that I passed over details. What seemed so clear often becomes rather shady.

So who hired the assassin to kill Bran? At first all signs point to Jamie and Cerci. Later it looks like Joff. Why would Joff desire to kill Bran? He hated Robb but had no real interaction with Bran. Joff also wouldn't know about his real father.

What do you think?

[-42-]

It's Joff. I'm 99% percent sure Martin has wrapped up the whole dagger mystery and moved on to bigger and better things.

[The Isle of Faces]

Yeah I thought it was said that Joffrey sent the assassin because he wanted to impress his father. He heard his father like, "He deserves mercy."

[Dave Zenz]

Rather a twisted way to impress one's father by hiring an assassin...

[hackhamster]

Rather a twisted way to impress one's father by hiring an assassin...

Well, this is Joffrey we're talking about. He's a sociopath.

[HarransRoast]

Rather a twisted way to impress one's father by hiring an assassin...

Joff is a sociopath, he doesn't want to impress his father for his father's sake. He wants to feel that he imbodies all the things he believes a King to be. He isn't old enough to actually know any better than to believe Robert is a shining example of a king. The fact he chops up a history of 4 kings shows this, he believes that by his own right whatever he does is right and what should be done.

[irishsmurf]

Yeah i think it was joff trying to impress his fake father

[John W]

To me it doesn't make sense that Joffrey would do it. Mainly because he never demonstrated any cunning. He was always portrayed as a rash, hot-headed psycho.

If it was him how could Cersei not know about it? She seems to know everything that goes on about her and she is overprotective of all her children. If Joffrey was hanging out with an assassin wouldn't that have sparked her curiosity?

Also wouldn't the Hound have known about it too? Wouldn't he had said something to Sansa or Arya, even if it was just to add to their misery, once he had his falling out with the Lannisters?

Also how would he have ended up with the dagger that was supposedly the property of LF/Tyrion?

[Sasha Steelsong]

Since I began reading these forums I have noticed debate on many topics. I read the story one way while others came to a different conclusion. Honestly I like it! Upon rereading the books I often noticed that I passed over details. What seemed so clear often becomes rather shady.

So who hired the assassin to kill Bran? At first all signs point to Jamie and Cerci. Later it looks like Joff. Why would Joff desire to kill Bran? He hated Robb but had no real interaction with Bran. Joff also wouldn't know about his real father.

What do you think?

I think it is 99% clear that Joff did it (Tyrion, Cersei and Jamie all come to the conclusion) but by the time they do no one really cares since all the Starks are scattered to the wind and believed dead. The way they went about explaining it was that Joff wanted Robert's approval. Robert clearly didn't like the boy (and after the cat incident I can understand why - kid was a serial killer in the making) but Joff believed himself to be Robert's true first born and heir and was always seeking his approval. Cersei said that Joff was present when Robert made a drunken comment about how it would be a mercy to kill Bran b/c he would be crippled for life and Cersei says she thinks that Joff hired the killer to make Robert happy.

Mainly because he never demonstrated any cunning. He was always portrayed as a rash, hot-headed psycho

And that sort of fits with what played out given that it was sort of a hot headed and obvious attempt. He hired a guy from their party and gave him a knife to use from the royal armory. It wasn't really a well thought out plan. And I don't think Cersei knows everything that Joff or her other kids get up to.

[Logen Ninefingers]

To me it doesn't make sense that Joffrey would do it. Mainly because he never demonstrated any cunning. He was always portrayed as a rash, hot-headed psycho.

If it was him how could Cersei not know about it? She seems to know everything that goes on about her and she is overprotective of all her children. If Joffrey was hanging out with an assassin wouldn't that have sparked her curiosity?

Also wouldn't the Hound have known about it too? Wouldn't he had said something to Sansa or Arya, even if it was just to add to their misery, once he had his falling out with the Lannisters?

Also how would he have ended up with the dagger that was supposedly the property of LF/Tyrion?

The dagger was actually Robert's.

The plan wasn't all that cunning really. Give a random hanger-on who'd attached himself to the royal procession a hugely distinctive knife and a bag of gold and tell him to kill a crippled kid after they had departed for King's Landing. It's not overly complex or particularly well planned.

[cklabyrinth]

I think it is 99% clear that Joff did it (Tyrion, Cersei and Jamie all come to the conclusion) but by the time they do no one really cares since all the Starks are scattered to the wind and believed dead. The way they went about explaining it was that Joff wanted Robert's approval. Robert clearly didn't like the boy (and after the cat incident I can understand why - kid was a serial killer in the making) but Joff believed himself to be Robert's true first born and heir and was always seeking his approval. Cersei said that Joff was present when Robert made a drunken comment about how it would be a mercy to kill Bran b/c he would be crippled for life and Cersei says she thinks that Joff hired the killer to make Robert happy.

And that sort of fits with what played out given that it was sort of a hot headed and obvious attempt. He hired a guy from their party and gave him a knife to use from the royal armory. It wasn't really a well thought out plan. And I don't think Cersei knows everything that Joff or her other kids get up to.

Also, in one of Jaime's chapters he notes how Robert had hundreds of daggers in his armory, which was apparently taken to Winterfell. Jaime was inspecting the Valyrian steel dagger and noted something about it, but I can't remember what. I seem to think it was about how ordinary it looked compared to others, which made it appeal to Joffrey when he chose it, not knowing it was Valyrian steel. Or maybe it was the other way around, being the most lavish of the daggers.

[Dragonfish]

To me it doesn't make sense that Joffrey would do it. Mainly because he never demonstrated any cunning. He was always portrayed as a rash, hot-headed psycho.

Well, the plan wasn't very cunning, was it?

If it was him how could Cersei not know about it? She seems to know everything that goes on about her and she is overprotective of all her children. If Joffrey was hanging out with an assassin wouldn't that have sparked her curiosity?

The man wasn't actually a professional assassin, he was a hanger-on in Robert's entourage whom Joffrey hired to go kill Bran. The man probably jumped at the chance to do something for his prince, and probably for a bit of gold as well.

Also wouldn't the Hound have known about it too? Wouldn't he had said something to Sansa or Arya, even if it was just to add to their misery, once he had his falling out with the Lannisters?

If Joffrey didn't want the Hound to be around while he made the arrangements, then he would have ordered him away. Didn't he order him away in the first book because he scared Sansa?

Also how would he have ended up with the dagger that was supposedly the property of LF/Tyrion?

Littlefinger lost the dagger in a bet to Robert. Thus, the dagger belonged to Robert, and was just lying around in his armory, which Joff had access to.

[Ser Bullitin The Board]

Littlefinger set it up before they left kings landing. Little finger knows enough to hire a bungling assassin on purpose. He's a long way off when it was supposed to take place. With Ned coming to Kings Landing Littlefinger is in jeopardy of having some of his schemes dashed by 'ol Neddy's honorable way of doing things. Besides, he set up Jon Arryn's death. Little to close for comfort if I was Littlefinger. So, divert the Starks attention to the Lannisters. "Bran" was an inconsequential target himself, it was part of Tinythumb trying to cover his own arse.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Littlefinger set it up before they left kings landing. Little finger knows enough to hire a bungling assassin on purpose. He's a long way off when it was supposed to take place. With Ned coming to Kings Landing Littlefinger is in jeopardy of having some of his schemes dashed by 'ol Neddy's honorable way of doing things. Besides, he set up Jon Arryn's death. Little to close for comfort if I was Littlefinger. So, divert the Starks attention to the Lannisters. "Bran" was an inconsequential target himself, it was part of Tinythumb trying to cover his own arse.

Littlefinger is smart enough not to use a dagger that can be traced back to him with ease since it was his before Roberts. While Littlefinger did have everything to do with Lord Aryn's death, there is no indication that he was involved in what happened to Bran. In fact as I recall most were suprised that Ned actually accepted the postion. A few people I recall seemed to think he would politely decline and that there would be someone else chosen when he refused.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Littlefinger is smart enough not to use a dagger that can be traced back to him with ease since it was his before Roberts. While Littlefinger did have everything to do with Lord Aryn's death, there is no indication that he was involved in what happened to Bran. In fact as I recall most were suprised that Ned actually accepted the postion. A few people I recall seemed to think he would politely decline and that there would be someone else chosen when he refused.

Not to mention that LF wanted Ned Stark in King's landing and away from Winterfell where he would be vulnerable and where he could use him to stir up conflict between the Stark's and the Lannisters. Ned was already on his way to KL when the attempt happened, if it had succeeded he would have turned back at least to go home for the funeral but possibly for good. Why would LF act against his own interests? The whole reason for the depth of these books is that everybody has their own schemes in motion regardless of how grand they may be, or how small and petty they could also be. Not every intrigue has Littlefinger at it's heart.

[Ser Bullitin The Board]

Not to mention that LF wanted Ned Stark in King's landing and away from Winterfell where he would be vulnerable and where he could use him to stir up conflict between the Stark's and the Lannisters. Ned was already on his way to KL when the attempt happened, if it had succeeded he would have turned back at least to go home for the funeral but possibly for good. Why would LF act against his own interests? The whole reason for the depth of these books is that everybody has their own schemes in motion regardless of how grand they may be, or how small and petty they could also be. Not every intrigue has Littlefinger at it's heart.

True enough. However it seems prudent for Littlefinger to keep Neddypooh out of Kings Landing rather than having him close and there to obviously snoop around about Arryn. Also Ned was Roberts only real friend, makes more sense for a schemer to keep them separated rather than together. Besides, who knows what was in the works before Ned fouled everything up by getting whacked by Joff.

The cutlery issue is simple: Tinythumb did not pick the dagger, just bad happenstance.

[Dragonfish]

True enough. However it seems prudent for Littlefinger to keep Neddypooh out of Kings Landing rather than having him close and there to obviously snoop around about Arryn. Also Ned was Roberts only real friend, makes more sense for a schemer to keep them separated rather than together. Besides, who knows what was in the works before Ned fouled everything up by getting whacked by Joff.

The cutlery issue is simple: Tinythumb did not pick the dagger, just bad happenstance.

No, Littlefinger clearly wanted Ned to come to King's Landing. Why else would he have had Lysa write the letter warning them about the Lannisters?

[Ser Bullitin The Board]

Hmm, to me that is not a "Come hither!" sign. That's just a way of bolstering the plan to keep Ned where he feels safest, up north. Ned himself mentioned that he was safe at home, not in the snake pit of Kings Landing.

[Envie]

The dagger was actually Robert's.

The plan wasn't all that cunning really. Give a random hanger-on who'd attached himself to the royal procession a hugely distinctive knife and a bag of gold and tell him to kill a crippled kid after they had departed for King's Landing. It's not overly complex or particularly well planned.

I agree, it was a poorly planned (and failed) assasination attempt. I'm still not really certain the "approval" theory we're given by Tyrion, Cersei, etc. for Joffrey's motivation on this is how or why it really happened.

I never really did 'get' this whole plot in the story. It was necessary so Catelyn would go rushing off to King's Landing - but it just doesn't seem to make any sense at all realistically (Joffrey or otherwise). I think it made more sense when you thought Cersei had it done except she too would not have done such a pitiful job of the details like using that dagger, unless she intended it to look like someone else planned it (ie. Littlefinger or Tyrion).

[Dragonfish]

Hmm, to me that is not a "Come hither!" sign. That's just a way of bolstering the plan to keep Ned where he feels safest, up north. Ned himself mentioned that he was safe at home, not in the snake pit of Kings Landing.

Well, then obviously Littlefinger seriously misjudged Ned, because it was the letter that convinced him he needed to go to King's Landing.