Cersei's idiocy

[I love Cersei]

Actually I pitied Cersei almost from the start of the series, not only because she was forced to marry someone who didn't care for her. And what else happend?

Cersei has lost her oldest son in a horrible way (I think that fact alone would be enough to turn anyone mad), lives in constant fear for her other children, lost her father, her boyfriend, ... the prophecy, and Tyrion as she sees it, threaten her stronger than ever.

She's grown more mad over these events, she wasn't always. Well, she might always have been a little psycho alright (nothing a good education couldn't suppress over time, maybe even weed out), but not in a way that gave her migraines all the time. She wasn't in a state were she could hardly think of anything else than how to keep her children and herself safe when we first met her, but she grew into it.

She also turned to drinking like Robert, to try drown some of her burdens. Something I wouldn't consider advisable but still quite normal.

I still pity her and hope she get's a 2nd chance, like her twin did. Wishful thinking, I know.

[Chirios]

Why is it Cersei's brain power is roughly at zero in AFfC, she didn't seem brain dead before becoming a PoV character; are we meant to think the death of Tywin did it? I only ask because I forgot why I liked the earlier books better after rereading some non-Cersei non-Jaime PoV (try avoiding Lannister PoV that improves AFfC) and really found that the weak link was Cersei and Jaime.Cersei seemed many things 1-3, but the woman who came up with wild fire, the demise of Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark, just doesn't seem to be the moron of AFfC.

Cersei was always dumb. She came up with wildfire, but never bothered to speak to the Pyromancers about it, so if she had been left alone she never would've trained the soldiers in its use and they would've burned themselves to death. Robert's demise required very little by way of intelligence, she had him drugged and shagged her cousin as payment for doing the deed, not exactly Machiavelli here; and Eddard Stark only died because of Littlefinger.

One of the key scenes I use to show this is the one in GoT, where Tyrion thinks: "If Cersei was clever, she would call a trial and have Robert sit as judge... but then she wouldn't be Cersei. She would see the insult, not the opportunity." The next chapter, she's in front of Ned, taking Tyrions capture as an insult, not as an opportunity.

Cersei tried to seduce Ned bleeding Stark, she failed at killing an eight year old, she raised a psychopath and abused her second eldest, and before Tyrion arrived in Kings Landing she was berating her Small Council and was trying to force Tywin south to Kings Landing where he'd be unable to check the movements of either Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon. Cersei was always an idiot, in AFFC her idiocy was just unchecked.

[Lady Tanalyth]

Cersei was always dumb. She came up with wildfire, but never bothered to speak to the Pyromancers about it, so if she had been left alone she never would've trained the soldiers in its use and they would've burned themselves to death. Robert's demise required very little by way of intelligence, she had him drugged and shagged her cousin as payment for doing the deed, not exactly Machiavelli here; and Eddard Stark only died because of Littlefinger.

If Tyrion hadn't been the Hand do we really know that she wouldn't have had the next Hand do just as Tyrion did in terms of supervising the wildfire? If she was smart enough to see to its production why the assumption that she wouldn't she make sure that it'll be able to be used when the time is necessary? Is it stated in the book that she just planned on having it sit there?

Robert's death didn't implicate her, it didn't implicate anyone, and she hasn't had to answer for it so IMO it was a good plan.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that Ned died "only" because of Littlefinger.

Something that qualifies as dumb to me for Cersei in terms of the early days before she was completely unchecked is the whole business of getting rid of Ser Barristan. That was retarded. Everything else you mentioned isn't what I would call dumb though.

As far as supposedly failing to kill an eight year old, she never tried to. She didn't try to kill Bran once. The first time was Jaime and the second time was Joffrey. There's no reason we shouldn't believe Jaime when he thinks about how much grief Cersei has given him over his impulsiveness to throw Bran from the tower. We know of course that Joffrey acted independently.

How did she abuse Myrcella? I remember her expressing her desire to protect Myrcella from being married off an early age as she was but I don't remember her abusing her. I do remember something terrible with Tommen though. I can't recall the specifics but I'm pretty sure it has to do with Margaery and in the end of the argument I think we're told that some kid is going to have to take a beating for Tommen. It is stupid to get the current King on your bad side though so I'll agree that being harsh with her son is dumb as well as mean.

[Chirios]

If Tyrion hadn't been the Hand do we really know that she wouldn't have had the next Hand do just as Tyrion did in terms of supervising the wildfire? If she was smart enough to see to its production why the assumption that she wouldn't she make sure that it'll be able to be used when the time is necessary? Is it stated in the book that she just planned on having it sit there?

She planned on having it used in the battle. But it took several weeks in-between her ordering it to be produced and Tyrion checking in on the pyromacers, in-between she had done nothing to train the soldiers in its use, thus, we can assume that she was not planning on ever doing so.

Robert's death didn't implicate her, it didn't implicate anyone, and she hasn't had to answer for it so IMO it was a good plan.

If I stab someone then throw their body in the Thames that doesn't make me a criminal mastermind.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that Ned died "only" because of Littlefinger.

If Littlefinger had bought the Goldcloaks for Ned instead of for Cersei, she would've been arrested. If Ned had allied with Renly, she would've been arrested.

Something that qualifies as dumb to me for Cersei in terms of the early days before she was completely unchecked is the whole business of getting rid of Ser Barristan. That was retarded. Everything else you mentioned isn't what I would call dumb though. As far as supposedly failing to kill an eight year old, she never tried to. She didn't try to kill Bran once. The first time was Jaime and the second time was Joffrey.

Jaime killed Bran because Cersei kept going: "He saw us, he saw us!" then when it turned out that the fall hadn't killed Bran she turned around and was like: "What did you do that for?" trying to put all the blame on him instead of her.

How did she abuse Myrcella? I remember her expressing her desire to protect Myrcella from being married off an early age as she was but I don't remember her abusing her. I do remember something terrible with Tommen though. I can't recall the specifics but I'm pretty sure it has to do with Margaery and in the end of the argument I think we're told that some kid is going to have to take a beating for Tommen. It is stupid to get the current King on your bad side though so I'll agree that being harsh with her son is dumb as well as mean.

She abused Tommen, not Myrcella.

[Marcus Adler]

Actually I pitied Cersei almost from the start of the series, not only because she was forced to marry someone who didn't care for her. And what else happend?

Cersei has lost her oldest son in a horrible way (I think that fact alone would be enough to turn anyone mad), lives in constant fear for her other children, lost her father, her boyfriend, ... the prophecy, and Tyrion as she sees it, threaten her stronger than ever.

She's grown more mad over these events, she wasn't always. Well, she might always have been a little psycho alright (nothing a good education couldn't suppress over time, maybe even weed out), but not in a way that gave her migraines all the time. She wasn't in a state were she could hardly think of anything else than how to keep her children and herself safe when we first met her, but she grew into it.

She also turned to drinking like Robert, to try drown some of her burdens. Something I wouldn't consider advisable but still quite normal.

I still pity her and hope she get's a 2nd chance, like her twin did. Wishful thinking, I know.

There is a passage in one of the books where Cersei recalls being a child running into the nursery who "pinched Tyrion until he cried." While I find any "bad" child has a chance at redemption with a good enough fostering (and Cersei like all characters has to have something redeemable about her) Cersei was not so easily pitied -- she was a terrible person from her youth onward.

As to the subject of the topic, however, I'd say Cersei wasn't a genius or a fool -- just someone who thought she was s genius, to her own demise. Like her brother, Jamie, she was cunning to a certain point, with a bit of wit -- but far too confident in her plans and not experienced enough to recognize that such confidence can be so disastrous as a weakness.

[HotPiesBastard]

Cersai is obviously emotionally unstable. she fears for her chrildren so much that she can't think clearly. in GoT she could make good decisions and play the game well. By Feast of Crows she is an emotional wreck cant make good decesions. i wouldnt go as far as saying she is psychotic just the stress, high emotions, and paranoia make her seem that way. She just isnt as good at playing the game as she thinks she is.

[Lady Blackfish]

This topic always stumps me. I think it's clear as early as AGOT that Cersei isn't the mastermind of the story, and by ACOK we see that she'd like to think of herself as that, and that makes it easy to roll one's eyes at her, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's super dumb from the start. At any rate, I never thought cognitive deficiency was Cersei's problem so much as arrogance, just being too sure of herself. She is clearly capable of calculation, but I don't think she's disciplined about it. I feel like doing a thorough re-read with laborious bullet-point note-taking though, just to have a nice list of every single thing she did in the books.

[Ame]

Well the short term consequences of flatterers would be her own isolation; short term consequences of letting the faith militarize again was clashes between the faith and the population of KL, and the short term consequences of Margaery's arrest was the Tyrells marching on KL.

She isn't right about anything in AFfC, while she was more often than not in earlier books right when she got ideas; which is what leads me to see such a difference. I loved AFfC when skipping Cersei and Jaimie pov chapters, and I suspect everyone who ranked AFfC lower than earlier books would also like it much better that way.....Even the Boltons have more to justify their behavior than Cersei (who through Qyburn does every bad thing they do).

[I love Cersei]

(..) she was a terrible person from her youth onward.

Imo Robert for once said something intelligent here:

“Seven hells,” Robert swore. “Cersei, look at her. She’s a child. What would you have me do, whip her through the streets? Damn it, children fight. It’s over. No lasting harm was done.”

[Peter Woolshirt]

I don't think coming up with wildfire was that much of a stretch for Cersei. Remember that she talks a lot with Jaime, and Jaime is constantly thinking about King Aerys' death, which is closely connected with wildfire. Even if Jaime didn't tell Cersei about Aerys' plans for the city, he must have mentioned wildfire to her a few times.

Also notice that in the 10,000 pots of wildfire that she was buying from the pyromancers, there were 4000 "overripe fruits", which probably would have burnt the city down if Tyrion hadn't figured out a brilliant way to use them to win the battle.

[hagga on her hill]

She isn't right about anything in AFfC,

The sad irony of Cersei's war against the Tyrells in AFFC is that while she can't justify or really even rationalize her paranoia about them, she's actually not wrong to be terrified of them and how close they're getting to Tommen. Margaery, the primary object of Cersei's rage, did actually assassinate Joff, and Cersei has panic attacks whenever she sees Tommen spending time with her. Her instincts are right, but she doesn't put two and two together.

[Ser_Piggy]

I think that its paranoia forcing her to make bad decisions. Always before, she's lusted for power, but there have always been someone reasonably competent to either counsel her or actually run things, but in AFfC, she finally gets absolute power. Combine that with insane paranoia at the thought of having it taken from her, and a prophecy predicting just that, and that's not exactly the ideal combination.

I agree with this. Also we get to see her POV after Joffrey's and Tywin's deaths. We also know about her past experience with fortune telling!!

Seems to me that when she gets into power the first thing she does is start to see everyone as an enemy who can't be trusted. She surrounds herself with lickspittle's and people she thinks are harmless, or she can control.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The sad irony of Cersei's war against the Tyrells in AFFC is that while she can't justify or really even rationalize her paranoia about them, she's actually not wrong to be terrified of them and how close they're getting to Tommen. Margaery, the primary object of Cersei's rage, did actually assassinate Joff, and Cersei has panic attacks whenever she sees Tommen spending time with her. Her instincts are right, but she doesn't put two and two together.

True to a degree. However, the Tyrells don't have any kind of agenda towards Cersei. They want Tommen to be King and they want his and Margaery's offspring to sit the Iron Throne. That's the limit of their ambition. Joff wasn't killed as any sort of anti Lannister plot but because they wouldn't tolerate Margaery being married to someone who would brutalize her. Her attempts to get closer to Tommen mostly seem to be the work of a wife trying to develop some sort of relationship with the man she'll be spending the rest of her life with. There was a time to be suspicious of the Tyrells but the time when they were a danger to her or her family had long passed until she managed to stir up some serious shit at the end of AFFC.

[mcb]

The sad irony of Cersei's war against the Tyrells in AFFC is that while she can't justify or really even rationalize her paranoia about them, she's actually not wrong to be terrified of them and how close they're getting to Tommen. Margaery, the primary object of Cersei's rage, did actually assassinate Joff, and Cersei has panic attacks whenever she sees Tommen spending time with her. Her instincts are right, but she doesn't put two and two together.

Actually, her instincts are wrong. The Tyrells are very much interested in keeping Tommen on the throne. If the kid has an unfortunate accident, Margaery can't yet again marry the next one in line, since it's Myrcella. Queen Myrcella means the Martells in power. Now why would the Tyrells want that? Nah, Margaery is the last person who would kill Tommen.

But Cersei believes that Tyrells are set on killing her children just for the immense fun of kingslaying.

[Wouter]

The sad irony of Cersei's war against the Tyrells in AFFC is that while she can't justify or really even rationalize her paranoia about them, she's actually not wrong to be terrified of them and how close they're getting to Tommen. Margaery, the primary object of Cersei's rage, did actually assassinate Joff, and Cersei has panic attacks whenever she sees Tommen spending time with her. Her instincts are right, but she doesn't put two and two together.

But actually, the reason that Margaery (probably) killed Joffrey, yet is no threat to the safety of Tommen, is due to Cersei's own idiocy from the first 2 books and before that. Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is that Cersei allowed her oldest son to grow up as a monster, and she even liked him better than the, in her eyes, weak Tommen. Cersei's most stupid actions in late AGOT and the first half of ACOK is that she closed her eyes to Joffrey molesting Sansa. Combine this with her total failure to stop her son from killing Eddard Stark, this is what got her in this complete mess. Eddard dying is the reason for the war (and thus, Jaime being maimed, Tyrion getting to be acting hand, eventually Tywin getting shot). And that Cersei gladly allows Joffrey to mistreat Sansa in all kinds of vicious ways leads to Joffrey's death. Joffrey was as good as death the moment Sansa confirmed her treatment in person to the queen of thorns.

[Ame]

The sad irony of Cersei's war against the Tyrells in AFFC is that while she can't justify or really even rationalize her paranoia about them, she's actually not wrong to be terrified of them and how close they're getting to Tommen. Margaery, the primary object of Cersei's rage, did actually assassinate Joff, and Cersei has panic attacks whenever she sees Tommen spending time with her. Her instincts are right, but she doesn't put two and two together.

Interesting take on it although provoking a Tyrell Host easily capable of taking KL would still make her wrong; only difference between her way and letting them pull another Joffrey are the people who would die if KL is sacked. She had no plans for countering a Tyrell Army.

Also the Tyrion bit was introduced, GRRM really does dispose of his usual character styles for the Cersei PoV in AFfC (of giving everyone at least some good traits) and the book suffers as a result. Rereading ahead of ADwD I found that by skipping Cersei and Jaime I was able to make AFfC on par with AGoT ACoK and ASoS.I hope if Cersei stays as she was in AFfC she stops being a PoV character or only gets one or two chapters at most.

[Marcus Adler]

Interesting take on it although provoking a Tyrell Host easily capable of taking KL would still make her wrong; only difference between her way and letting them pull another Joffrey are the people who would die if KL is sacked. She had no plans for countering a Tyrell Army.

Also the Tyrion bit was introduced, GRRM really does dispose of his usual character styles for the Cersei PoV in AFfC (of giving everyone at least some good traits) and the book suffers as a result. Rereading ahead of ADwD I found that by skipping Cersei and Jaime I was able to make AFfC on par with AGoT ACoK and ASoS.I hope if Cersei stays as she was in AFfC she stops being a PoV character or only gets one or two chapters at most.

Cersei is not wholly evil -- that is, she can be a pretty terrible person while still being more than two-dimensionally evil (like Gregor Clegane seems to be). In truth, Cersei does have at least one redeeming quality: she unconditionally loves her children.

That said, I use the phrase "unconditionally" because her love may actually be an extension her vanity -- she loves Jamie (her twin) and she loves her children (her offspring). But that doesn't redeem her -- it just makes her madness more believable.

[Baramos]

Was using Wildfire her idea? I just reread A Storm of Swords and scoffed at Tywin saying Cersei came up with using Wildfire, since I thought it was Tyrion's idea originally? Tyrion just doesn't bother trying to dissuade him because Tywin just got done saying that only monkeys and mummers beg for attention and congratulation...not that it stopped Tywin from claiming that he was the one who really saved the day by...showing up with the entirety of the Reach? I always get a kick out of Tywin and his hypocrisy.

It just seemed like the alchemists were trying to ingratiate themselves with Cersei and were offering the only thing they have, Wildfire. She didn't order that I can see. I'm pretty sure it was Tyrion who saw the potential when they offered it, had them ramp up production, and stick a bunch of it in ships to use as floating bombs (that at least was 100% Tyrion's idea). Basically it was like Cersei ordered some wildfire, Tyrion actually came up with a strategy to use it without burning the city down but decimating the enemy. Cersei really had nothing to do with it that I can see.

EDIT: BTW it was Margaery's grandmother who killed Joff, not Margaery. And it was basically for the best. The fact that Cersei didn't recognize that Joff was another Mad King shows how out of touch she is. Lannister blood is to Cersei like Targaryen blood was to the Targaryens--perfect and nearly godlike. Cersei is perfect because she is a Lannister and Joff is perfect because he is a Lannister.

She also doesn't realize the basic Oedipal-irony of the prophecy that all her children will die, which is that in knowing the future, she then takes actions that will end up causing it to happen.

[Smashing Young Man]

I really wonder what Martin has in store for us with her in TWoW, because he did such a wonderful job of transforming Jaime into a sympathetic character. You'd think that he might have some redemption for her in mind, given his track record.

She's the most evil and irredeemable character in the book, at least among the main characters. She has babes at the breast butchered, slaughters untold numbers of dwarfs and even children in her quest for Tyrion's head, and sends relative innocents to who-knows-what horrific fate at the hands of Qyburn.

[mcb]

Cersei is not wholly evil -- that is, she can be a pretty terrible person while still being more than two-dimensionally evil (like Gregor Clegane seems to be). In truth, Cersei does have at least one redeeming quality: she unconditionally loves her children.

I wonder if Tommen feels loved that much. Didn't look like it.