A Daenerys Character Arc Reread II

[Sevumar]

While Qarth itself is a magnificent city, as we progress throughout the book, it becomes clear that death and decay are much in evidence there. There is an accumulation of dead things and institutions: the House of the Undying, the Pureborn (remnants of past Qartheen royalty, though they have little real power), the Byzantine structure and rituals (not to mention bribery) required to access influential citizens.

Xaro gave Dany a collar with an enchanted amethyst that protects against poison because the Pureborn are famous for offering poisoned wine. Unfortunately, they haven't offered her anything at all.

Anyone wonder if this is similar to the ruby that Melisandre wears? We see it protecting her from poison at the very beginning of ACoK. Is this one the real deal, or something to make Dany feel a little more secure in her bid to get the support of the Pureborn?

She thinks that part of her wants to go back to Vaes Tolorro and make the dead city bloom but that would be defeat.

And yet, if she survives the war to come, a quiet retirement someplace remote might be best for her and the world. Maybe as Lady of Dragonstone?

The dragons are bringing magic back into the world. And we are starting to see the changes.

All throughout this book, and specifically in this chapter and some of Tyrion's, we see the theme of the return of magic to the world. While it seems all forms of magic are growing more powerful, fire magic seems especially potent following the appearance of the dragons. The firemage and his cutpurse confederates suddenly find their act endowed with more than mere parlor tricks. On a side note, does anyone notice that a lot of the props and techniques that this firemage is listed as using sound very similar to Melisandre's bag of tricks in ADWD? The Pyromancers of King's Landing find their formula to be more effective than at any other time in recent memory. We have one of the first mentions of "waking fire from dragonglass," a process which is still mysterious to us now, even 3 books down the road.

Dany asks what is in Asshai that she cannot find in Qarth and Quaithe tells her truth. I wonder what is meant by this... we've figured some of this out (Westeros is west, backwards is the Dothraki sea, etc.) but what is this truth? Is it possibly the truth about Aerys and her family? Or about the fall of Valyria? Or how dragons came to go extinct?

The fact that so much of this is still so cryptic makes me question the usefulness of Quaithe's advice or warnings. It's so vague that it can only serve to confuse Dany instead of awaken her to what she ought to do. I think the "truth" could be any of the things you mentioned, but I'm not sure what the last two would have to do with the story in the present ASOIAF timeline.

Jorah clues her in on Qartheen wedding customs and Xaro's scheme to get a dragon from her through marriage. He doesn't want to go to Asshai, but Dany says that she has friends in the Free cities who are truer than Xaro or the Pureborn.

Xaro's fickleness and manipulation are pretty clear in this chapter, especially after being revealed in greater detail by Jorah's line about Qartheen wedding traditions. Likewise, her intention to use Xaro for his money and ships is pretty transparent. It's actually a bit amusing to think of how these two frustrate each other in their desire to use the other as pawns in their own scheming for power. Of course, we sympathize more with Daenerys because we've seen her story, we've experienced the world from her point of view, and we want to believe she's a good person. But looking at it more objectively, they're both kind of slimy and ambitious in a negative way here, Xaro because he already owns much and desires even more and Dany because she believes that she deserves the help of the Qartheen while offering nothing concrete in return.

We get detailed descriptions about the many treasures that Xaro gives Dany, and the gifts bestowed upon her by other admirers and factions in the city. It's hard to believe that the value of all these things that she was given was only enough to cover a few bribes or "hire a score of sellswords." When she's going through the list, it seems like it ought to be enough to purchase all the Unsullied she ends up with in ASoS.

She decides to go to Pyat Pree and the warlocks.

From what we've read so far, it seems like the attitudes of the Qartheen toward the warlocks aren't very positive. They look to be feared, mocked, or taken for liars. It almost seems like the Qartheen might be better off without them. Yet, a strange thing happens that turns all of this on its head. Dany's visit to the House of the Undying and Drogon's ability to turn the attempted assassination into a defeat for the warlocks seems to rally everyone in Qarth behind these guys. Is this just a case of "they're assholes, but they're our assholes" or is there something else going on here?

I really enjoyed this chapter. Dany is showing some good development and it is well written and fun to read. I like her sparring with Xaro and her attempts to take control of her future and get that throne. She's still woefully naive (see: Xaro's proposal of marriage) but growing up.

In this chapter, we get a pretty clear picture of what's going on in Dany's mind, and it's largely frustration that nobody in Qarth wants to spend their money, or send their ships and soldiers to help her conquer the Seven Kingdoms. She's very well-spoken in this chapter, perhaps almost unbelievably so for a teenage girl with no formal education. It's pretty telling to see the kinds of things she believes about Westeros (the Arbor's wines, for example) without ever having been there or having seen many of its products. Dany's sense of entitlement to the throne is very much in evidence here, and it's hard to resist seeing her as a petulant little girl this chapter. I think you're right about character development, if we're talking in the literary sense. She's maturing in the sense that she's getting better at seeing the motivations of others and learning to advocate for her cause, but she's not doing much growing up in other areas.

I agree that the world-building and the writing here are very good. All throughout the Qarth chapters, there are a lot of offhand references to things that are never fully explained and it makes you wonder if they will come back into play later on. There's a lot of time spent developing Qarth even though it doesn't play a very big role in later books (so far).

She shouldn't tease Jorah though, if she doesn't like him. But I notice that he talks down to her a lot here, which he shouldn't do either. At one point she wonders if he truly sees her as a queen (answer: no).

I don't see him talking down to her here. In Westeros, it's typically taken for granted that kings and lords are at least somewhat knowledgeable about warfare, since many lead their own troops and there is a strong martial tradition in the Targaryen regime. Jorah undoubtedly knows this and probably errs on the side of caution when giving advice about ruling and leading to an inexperienced and largely unproven would-be ruler. I'm not really sure where this idea of "talking down" to her comes from.

If he doesn't fully see her as a queen, I don't think that he's to be faulted. At this point in the story, she's a pretender from a nearly-extinct dynasty who has very little power over anything. That's going to necessarily have an impact on the those who follow her, even if she tries to compensate for a lack of temporal power by trying to project confidence in her ability to achieve her goals.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

"I mean to sail to Westeros and drink the wine of vengeance from the skull of the Usurper."

Word. HBIC.

Dany asks what is in Asshai that she cannot find in Qarth and Quaithe tells her truth. I wonder what is meant by this... we've figured some of this out (Westeros is west, backwards is the Dothraki sea, etc.) but what is this truth? Is it possibly the truth about Aerys and her family? Or about the fall of Valyria? Or how dragons came to go extinct?

I suppose it would have to do with prophecy. Asshai is the center of the whole R'hllor/red priest movement. I think of it as there being like 1000 Melisandres, each twice as powerful as she is. They have probably they have known of Dany's coming for awhile and probably know a lot of what's to come - that would be the "truth" Quathe speaks of. I would not be surprised if Quaithe was sent a message from her homeland that she should seek dragons to the west of Qarth, and bring them to Asshai.

I'm very annoyed by Quathe as of adwd, though. Her next prophecy was basically "DON'T TRUST ANYONE" which was the last thing Dany needed to hear. She didn't trust anyone and that made it impsosible for her to rule effectively. I suppose that if Quaithe's intention was to ruin Dany's abbility to rule so she'd have to flee east it was a reasonable approach. Annoying though.

Dany thinks that the dragons are growing and already twice the size they were in Vaes Tolorro.But they must be trained or they will lay waste to her kingdom (hello, Tyrion!).

I've always been vaguely annoyed with the idea of Tyrion becoming some kind of great dragontamer. For one thing it's annoyingly fanboyish to me. For another thing, Dany has tamed Drogon herself - I don't think she needs Tyrion's help in that. I do think that his info will be useful but I'm a bit more interested in the idea brought up in adwd that dragons choose their riders, and can only be ridden by one person at a time. I suspect that each dragon has to find the right rider before he can be trained.

It's interesting that the idea dragons could be really dangerous is brought up now. It's weird that it doesnt' come up again at all until they are suddenly out of control in adwd (I found it rather odd how they suddenly went from tame, gentle, friendly, controllable to COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTROL. I guess it's like dragon-puberty?

Final Analysis:

I really enjoyed this chapter. Dany is showing some good development and it is well written and fun to read. I like her sparring with Xaro and her attempts to take control of her future and get that throne. She's still woefully naive (see: Xaro's proposal of marriage) but growing up.

She shouldn't tease Jorah though, if she doesn't like him. But I notice that he talks down to her a lot here, which he shouldn't do either. At one point she wonders if he truly sees her as a queen (answer: no).

I look forward to these scenes, they should be a lot of fun with the actors they've cast. I imagine a lot of jealous fuming from Jorah's corner while Xaro is doing his over the top flowery protestations and Dany being unflappable but rolling her eyes a bit at the ridiculous behavior of the men. Lol...

IA Dany's a little naive, but isn't it convenient that Jorah happens to know all these little tthings e.g. Quartheen marraige customs? Sometimes it's weird that he knows so much - a bit plot device-y. Anyway I think i'ts pretty clear that Dany's not about to marry Xaro with or without knowing about the dragon-price thing. I suppose it would be kind of her to tell Jorah that straightaway - I think you are correct that she's definitely teasing Jorah by saying that she's considering Xaro. But I see her perspective - it would be very tempting indeed to watch him squirm a little given he's been talking down to her and possessive lately... He doesn't have a "right" to know (or control) her romantic intentions and he has to learn that (he never does, of course - though maybe in twow?)

Sorry for being so late with this one, all. No excuse, I've just been lazy. :(

It's cool 2x week seems to be a good rhythm for us. I'll get the next one up before I leave for Thanksgiving (so Tuesday night).

Except that he says he saw King's Landing after the sack. Every account we have of the sack implies that Ned arrived when the destruction and killing was over, and that it was the Lannister men who were responsible for it. Jorah's making a generalization about men, but he never says that the Northerners participated in the sack, and in fact it would've been hard for them to do so since they arrived after the damage was done.

None of the sources we have implicate Northerners in this deed, and Ned's actions in the immediate aftermath of the sack and his reaction to Robert's acceptance of what the Lannisters did shows that he did not approve. Remember, Ned had a heated argument with Robert and then left the city in disgust to finish the war in the south and lift the siege of Storm's End.

I'm not sure about that. Given Ned and Jaime's exchange in the throne room, it seems to me that the Northern army must have arrived on the same day as Tywin's forces were sacking the city, not after it was all over. To me this implies pretty strongly that both armies participated in the sack. There is every reason to think, therefore, that all sides were taking part in the savagery that occurred whether ordered to or not. Jorah's statement makes this transparent - every man has a monster inside waiting to come out, not just evil nasty Lannisters. If Jorah had meant that his men and their compatriots were somehow immune from this savagery he would have said so. One cannot control the actions of ones' soldiers was the entire point of the story.

Even if the Northerners arrived too late, it seems like an odd point to belabor. Are you arguing that no Northman would ever commit rape or murder a child (I can't imagine this is what you are saying)? Or that Ned would not approve (on this we obviously agree)? Are you trying to say that Ned would not consider himself responsible for the actions of his men (I think he would consider the actions of his men to be criminal and would try to punish those he could find if he was aware of what was going on, but that he would indeed feel responsible)?

In the end, I think that Ned himself would agree that Dany has good cause to oppose Robert, Tywin, and yes, even himself, even knowing the whole truth.

While Qarth itself is a magnificent city, as we progress throughout the book, it becomes clear that death and decay are much in evidence there. There is an accumulation of dead things and institutions: the House of the Undying, the Pureborn (remnants of past Qartheen royalty, though they have little real power), the Byzantine structure and rituals (not to mention bribery) required to access influential citizens.

It's really quite an interesting culture. I look forward to seeing all these groups portrayed in the TV series. I hope that given how few big events there are in this book, that they expand a bit and delve into the various institutions a bit more.

And yet, if she survives the war to come, a quiet retirement someplace remote might be best for her and the world. Maybe as Lady of Dragonstone?

Queen, or death! No other options! :fencing:

The firemage and his cutpurse confederates suddenly find their act endowed with more than mere parlor tricks. On a side note, does anyone notice that a lot of the props and techniques that this firemage is listed as using sound very similar to Melisandre's bag of tricks in ADWD? The Pyromancers of King's Landing find their formula to be more effective than at any other time in recent memory. We have one of the first mentions of "waking fire from dragonglass," a process which is still mysterious to us now, even 3 books down the road.

Yeah I think that fire magic / R'hllor magic / Dragon magic is all the same, and the source is the dragons. I wonder at the CotF / Ice magic / Warg-Starky magic - does that have more to do with the return of The Others, or is it also affected by Dragons? Is there an underlying source of magic that actually powers both, and waxes and wanes over time?

The fact that so much of this is still so cryptic makes me question the usefulness of Quaithe's advice or warnings. It's so vague that it can only serve to confuse Dany instead of awaken her to what she ought to do. I think the "truth" could be any of the things you mentioned, but I'm not sure what the last two would have to do with the story in the present ASOIAF timeline.

I agree... I've toyed with the idea that Quathe might be out to stop Daenerys or lead her to her demise. Perhaps some out there want nothing more than to destroy the dragons. Still I tend to lean towards the idea that she really just wants Dany to come to Asshai and listen to the prophecies about her that the priests there have heard (we know they exist since they have spread to Volantis by adwd).

Likewise, her intention to use Xaro for his money and ships is pretty transparent. It's actually a bit amusing to think of how these two frustrate each other in their desire to use the other as pawns in their own scheming for power. Of course, we sympathize more with Daenerys because we've seen her story, we've experienced the world from her point of view, and we want to believe she's a good person. But looking at it more objectively, they're both kind of slimy and ambitious in a negative way here, Xaro because he already owns much and desires even more and Dany because she believes that she deserves the help of the Qartheen while offering nothing concrete in return.

I think we don't fault Dany because she is the reactiveplayer. That is, her schemes are only in response to Xaro's. Xaro is obviously scheming and wants something from her. She's taking what he offers without making any promises. Dany often uses this technique - let the enemy believe that you are in their power so that they underestimate you. Sometimes I think she relies on it too heavily, and TBH it really should only work against fools. The East seems to be full of fools so it works pretty well...

We get detailed descriptions about the many treasures that Xaro gives Dany, and the gifts bestowed upon her by other admirers and factions in the city. It's hard to believe that the value of all these things that she was given was only enough to cover a few bribes or "hire a score of sellswords." When she's going through the list, it seems like it ought to be enough to purchase all the Unsullied she ends up with in ASoS.

To me it sounded vaguely similar to the amount of trade goods that were in Illyro's ships at the start of asos. So probably she could buy about 500 Unsullied IIRC. In no way is it enough to hire the 20,000 Unsullied she steals/liberates. The "problem" with sellswords is that you have to keep paying them. The question becomes how long can she hire a Y sellswords for X amount of cash? Ultimately sellswords would be more expensive than Unsullied.

From what we've read so far, it seems like the attitudes of the Qartheen toward the warlocks aren't very positive. They look to be feared, mocked, or taken for liars. It almost seems like the Qartheen might be better off without them. Yet, a strange thing happens that turns all of this on its head. Dany's visit to the House of the Undying and Drogon's ability to turn the attempted assassination into a defeat for the warlocks seems to rally everyone in Qarth behind these guys. Is this just a case of "they're assholes, but they're our assholes" or is there something else going on here?

Eh, Xaro is negative about everyone in Quarth that isn't him. Including the Pureborn, though he does help Dany try to win them over. Obviously his agenda is to have Dany trust only him and hence he will talk down about everyone else.

Anyway I'm not sure that the city of Quarth rallys behind the warlocks. Everyone saw the dragons, got what they wanted, and now they want Dany gone. It's clear now she might be dangerous given she burns down an ancient institution of Quarth. Xaro tosses her out because he realizes finally that she'll never marry him so he has no more to gain from her presence (not to mention the gifts which surely he was taking part of have dried up).

Dany's sense of entitlement to the throne is very much in evidence here, and it's hard to resist seeing her as a petulant little girl this chapter

It's hard for you to resist apparently! :fencing:

I don't see any problem. She has few options, so she reacts to the events as they come to her day to day. I've asked this a lot but exactly what would you rather have her do? She knows what she needs to do and she is struggling to find a solution. A petulant child would sit and pout and do nothing. She is going out and trying to get help from whatever corner she can. She has a goal and she's trying to achieve it. I understand that you think her goal is crap but it's all she has. Besides Dragons are a pretty powerful sign IMO that she's meant to take up the mantle of her ancestors. I'd find it pretty hard to ignore something like that if it happened to me.

I don't see him talking down to her here. In Westeros, it's typically taken for granted that kings and lords are at least somewhat knowledgeable about warfare, since many lead their own troops and there is a strong martial tradition in the Targaryen regime. Jorah undoubtedly knows this and probably errs on the side of caution when giving advice about ruling and leading to an inexperienced and largely unproven would-be ruler. I'm not really sure where this idea of "talking down" to her comes from.

I think he does better in this chapter but given that every other person who is posting on this thread sees Jorah's attitude in this and the previous chapter as motivated by a mixture of jealousy, possessiveness, and genuine concern... well that at least makes it a legitemate reading that he's talking down to her. I agree fully with Dany's concern that Jorah does not see her as a queen (or even his equal). You seem to think this is no problem but I'd argue it's a HUGE problem. If Dany's foremost follower does not respect her as a superior then all is lost. She needs him to respect her opinion. To his credit he usually does follow what she says ultimately, and significantly he never talks down to her in public. So it's a mixed bag for sure. Jorah is definitely wrestling with what his duty would have him do (follow her as a true knight should and do everything he can do help her achieve her goals) and what he really wants to do (toss her over his shoulder and grab a ship to nevernever land would be my guess?).

[PatrickStormborn]

I completely agree with you regarding Tyrion. The idea of him suddenly being this wonderful dragon tamer is actually quite cringeworthy, in my opinon. But I think he'll be very useful in sharing information about the dragons, and I'd even love to see him as one of the riders.

I'm not sure what Quaithe's cryptic words mean, but I have been giving them some thought.

"To go north, you must journey south." - Maybe this means that, before she can defeat the Others, she has to unite Westeros by playing "the game of thrones" in the South?

"To reach the west, you must go east." - I have a few ideas for this one. 1) Dany has things to complete in Essos (such as ending slavery, learning how to rule, etc.) before she can head to Westeros. 2) She must keep going east until she arrives in Westeros. 3) She must wait in Essos until she can arrive in Westeros as a saviour, not a conqueror. 4) She has to go to the most eastern point in Westeros, and the most western point in Essos - Dragonstone. 5) (This one probably makes the least sense.) She has to go to the middle of Westeros, neither east nor west, neither north nor south: the Riverlands. She's already had a dream where she battled enemies armoured in ice at the Trident, which is where my idea has come from.

"To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow." - This part seems to speak for itself, really. Daenerys needs to go back to her beginnings before she can go forward. Maybe it means she needs to learn the truth about her father, the rebellion, her family, Rhaegar, her mother, Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters, etc.

As for the "pass beneath the shadow" line, maybe it refers to passing beneath darkness/evil and battling the Others before she can bring peace and "light" to Westeros? Or a more crackpot theory: maybe it refers to passing beneath the shadow of Casterly Rock, which has been mentioned quite a few times in the book. It would add to the theory that she's going to go east to get to Westeros.

Either way, it seems that Quaithe really does want Dany to go to Asshai. But there must be more to the message than just "go to Asshai, Daenerys," because she keeps on repeating it, even after Dany mentions Asshai.

[Alexia]

I've always been vaguely annoyed with the idea of Tyrion becoming some kind of great dragontamer. For one thing it's annoyingly fanboyish to me.

I thought that it was plain from AGOT that this is where Tyrion is headed. Since he learned so much about dragons, and Dany needs a dragon trainer. That is his value to hre.

It's weird that it doesnt' come up again at all until they are suddenly out of control in adwd (I found it rather odd how they suddenly went from tame, gentle, friendly, controllable to COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTROL. I guess it's like dragon-puberty?

I think we were originally supposed to meet them like this in five years, when they were all growed up.

It's cool 2x week seems to be a good rhythm for us. I'll get the next one up before I leave for Thanksgiving (so Tuesday night).

Okay. I know I won't get the next one up until probably Saturday, since I have family around from out of town.

I'm not sure about that. Given Ned and Jaime's exchange in the throne room, it seems to me that the Northern army must have arrived on the same day as Tywin's forces were sacking the city, not after it was all over. To me this implies pretty strongly that both armies participated in the sack. There is every reason to think, therefore, that all sides were taking part in the savagery that occurred whether ordered to or not. Jorah's statement makes this transparent - every man has a monster inside waiting to come out, not just evil nasty Lannisters. If Jorah had meant that his men and their compatriots were somehow immune from this savagery he would have said so. One cannot control the actions of ones' soldiers was the entire point of the story.

One other thing I've noted is that Ned never thinks or talks about the Sack. We learn about it from others, IIRC. But he's furious about Elia and her children (all of whom are highborn). We see more concern for the victimized smallfolk from Sansa, Jorah, and others than we get from Ned Stark.

Queen, or death! No other options! :fencing:

I totally agree with this one. When you play the game of thrones, you win or die. If she crosses to Westeros, it will end with her as queen or dead. It is probably already too latl to avoid that fate. She'd never be left alive to be the Lady of Dragonstone if she were to fail.

[Sevumar]

I'm not sure about that. Given Ned and Jaime's exchange in the throne room, it seems to me that the Northern army must have arrived on the same day as Tywin's forces were sacking the city, not after it was all over. To me this implies pretty strongly that both armies participated in the sack. There is every reason to think, therefore, that all sides were taking part in the savagery that occurred whether ordered to or not.

Even if they did arrive the same day, what I'm saying is that it seems like the action was over by the time Ned and his troops got into the city. We know a lot about Ned's personality and from his reaction to what was done to Rhaenys and Aegon, it's pretty easy to understand that he would not allow his soldiers to take part in the terrorizing of civilians. He understood that Robert was going to have to rule these people and rebuild this city, so it makes no sense to leave his men to further damage it and Robert's reputation.

Keep in mind Jorah says he saw the city after the sack, not during it, and that's the only clear time indication we're given. His statement about the nature of men is a general one, there's no indication he's talking about things specific Northman did. I have no doubt that under the command of someone like Roose Bolton or the Umbers, this host would participate in raping and pillaging, but with a commander like Ned (with his strong sense of morality and close ties to Robert), it wouldn't have been allowed to happen. If someone or something comes out later and confirms specific Northern participation in the violence toward civilians, I'll believe it, but without direct evidence of participation, there's no good reason to assume the Northern forces took part.

In the end, I think that Ned himself would agree that Dany has good cause to oppose Robert, Tywin, and yes, even himself, even knowing the whole truth.

Oppose, yes, but you'd hope that she, like Barristan, would realize the tragedy of having to fight one of the few enough virtuous people in the realm.

Yeah I think that fire magic / R'hllor magic / Dragon magic is all the same, and the source is the dragons. I wonder at the CotF / Ice magic / Warg-Starky magic - does that have more to do with the return of The Others, or is it also affected by Dragons? Is there an underlying source of magic that actually powers both, and waxes and wanes over time?

I think the dragons are symptomatic of something deeper, not the source of magic's return, but I also hope we learn more about it as the series moves on. If there's a Recluce Saga-like balance of power, then an escalation on one end would necessarily lead to a surge on the other.

I agree... I've toyed with the idea that Quathe might be out to stop Daenerys or lead her to her demise.

I think if Quaithe wanted to ruin Dany, she would act a lot less cryptically than she has, and before the dragons reach maturity. I'm pretty sure she's trying to help or guide Dany in some way, but she's not doing a great job of getting the message across. Someone just needs to send Quaithe a copy of the SSM where Martin states that we won't see Asshai in the present timeline.

I think we don't fault Dany because she is the reactiveplayer. That is, her schemes are only in response to Xaro's. Xaro is obviously scheming and wants something from her. She's taking what he offers without making any promises. Dany often uses this technique - let the enemy believe that you are in their power so that they underestimate you. Sometimes I think she relies on it too heavily, and TBH it really should only work against fools. The East seems to be full of fools so it works pretty well...

I don't see Dany as totally reactive here. Yes, she doesn't have a whole lot of choice but to show up in Qarth after the Red Waste, but she's there because she wants something from them, and certain factions want something from her. Both sides are seeking to use the other shamelessly to augment their power. On some level, Dany knows that she has nothing to offer in return for Qartheen assistance, yet she persists in acting as though she has some right to expect them to help her. Yes, she's wiser about Xaro than she was when she stayed with Illyrio, but I don't think she's really in a position of power or pulling off any ruse here. She's playing hard to get for as long as she can in order to keep her options open, but it turns out that she has no options.

Eh, Xaro is negative about everyone in Quarth that isn't him. Including the Pureborn, though he does help Dany try to win them over. Obviously his agenda is to have Dany trust only him and hence he will talk down about everyone else.

Xaro isn't the only source of information we have for the dislike and fear toward the warlocks in the city. We get indications from other sources that they may not have as much power as they say and that their influence has waned.

I agree that part of the city's opposition to her comes from the fact that she's overstayed her welcome and become yesterday's news, but the warlocks seem to be at the forefront of the opposition to her going forward.

I don't see any problem. She has few options, so she reacts to the events as they come to her day to day. I've asked this a lot but exactly what would you rather have her do?

I think she'd either have to come up with something to offer the Qartheen in return for their help, because it's extremely unrealistic for her to sit there and believe that people in the city are just going to give her resources for nothing. It would be difficult to entice them, but it seemed like maybe there was an opening for playing the trading factions against each other. Ultimately, though, I think it's just a sign that she stays too long in the city. I don't really see why she needed to be there the entire book because it ends up being a lot of her pouting about how nobody will help her.

I never said that she wasn't trying to get help, I just find it incredible that she doesn't really seem to understand why they're not giving it to her. It's part of her inconsistency. She has shown that she's capable of great insights and that she can win people over, but what she's not very good at is examining why she fails and trying to change her expectations and behavior to help her in the future. When she's going through the causes for her failure, it's never the result of incompatible situations or things she did or said wrong. She was entitled to have them care about her cause and help her, and clearly, it's something wrong with the Qartheen that they didn't.

I think he does better in this chapter but given that every other person who is posting on this thread sees Jorah's attitude in this and the previous chapter as motivated by a mixture of jealousy, possessiveness, and genuine concern... well that at least makes it a legitemate reading that he's talking down to her.

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the fact that the most rabid Dany partisans on the board see Jorah "talking down" to her. I've brought up this topic with others who are more objective about Dany, and they don't see any consistent condescension on Jorah's part either. As I said before, jealousy really only starts to become an obvious motivation in Jorah's behavior once we're in the last chapter of this book and into ASoS.

As for her not being seen as a queen being a big deal, I don't think we're going to agree on it. I think at this point in the story, she's still in the process of proving that she's worthy to lead something. Jorah's there because he likes her, he doesn't have that many choices, and he's loyal to her, though perhaps not in the sense of a "true knight." But if Jorah was closer to the stereotypical blind follower, he probably wouldn't have lived so long.

[Alexia]

MDIND, I'm not as familiar with the Dany chapters and where to find things as you are. Could you pull up the quote about what he saw in KL for discussion? I know we'll get there eventually, but sometimes it is helpful to have it now.

We do know that Ned was there within hours of Tywin's arrival and a good Sack would still be underway (they aren't generally brief affairs). Also, sacks are typical of medieval warfare. As Sansa notes, a city that fights can expect no mercy at all. That's quite accurate. Tywin's unusual viciousness there was in turning his troops loose on the surrendered city, not in the general act of sacking the city.

[Sevumar]

Could you pull up the quote about what he saw in KL for discussion? I know we'll get there eventually, but sometimes it is helpful to have it now.

Doesn't look like MDIND is around, so I'll post the quote.

My copy of ASoS is the US mass market paperback. Jorah's only mention of the sack comes on page 328, in the context of a discussion about the horrors Dany heard about in the process of creating the Unsullied. Jorah tells her that if she means to rule, she will have blood on her hands.

Blood and fire, thought Dany. The words of House Targaryen. She had known them all her life. "The blood of my enemies I will shed gladly. The blood of innocents is another matter. Eight thousand Unsullied they would offer me. Eight thousand dead babies. Eight thousand strangled dogs."

"Your Grace," said Jorah Mormont, "I saw King's Landing after the Sack. Babes were butchered that day as well, and old men, and children at play. More women were raped than you can count. There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs. The scent of blood is all it takes to wake him. Yet I have never heard of these Unsullied raping, nor putting a city to the sword, nor even plundering, save at the express command of those who lead them. Brick they may be, as you say, but if you buy them henceforth the only dogs they'll kill are those you want dead. And you do have some dogs you want dead, as I recall."

They then go on to discuss the reasons why the Dothraki and others have never sacked the slave cities.

[Sevumar]

We do know that Ned was there within hours of Tywin's arrival and a good Sack would still be underway (they aren't generally brief affairs). Also, sacks are typical of medieval warfare. As Sansa notes, a city that fights can expect no mercy at all. That's quite accurate. Tywin's unusual viciousness there was in turning his troops loose on the surrendered city, not in the general act of sacking the city.

There may have still been violence going on in the streets, but based on what we know about Ned, he wouldn't have allowed his troops to take part.

We have a couple of other pieces of circumstantial evidence that point to the sack being a project of House Lannister:

• The way that Tywin unleashes Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch on the Riverlands after Tyrion's kidnapping by Catelyn shows that brutality toward civilians is a standard tactic in the House Lannister playbook.
  

• "When soldiers lack discipline, the fault lies with their lord commander," [Tyrion's] father said.

  Acknowledging that it's well-understood that commanders are expected to account for the actions of their troops.
  
• Ned's general disgust at Robert's being OK with what the Lannisters had done, especially with regard to the murders of Rhaenys and Aegon, and the rape and murder of Elia.
  
• When Ser Barristan's identity is formally revealed by Jorah (pp. 790-91 in my copy of ASoS), Barristan admits he may well deserve to die a traitor's death, but he "won't go alone." He then proceeds to give an accounting of Jorah's own crimes - fighting on Robert's side at the Trident, spying for Varys. Being with the army of Eddard Stark is apparently enough to make him guilty of that army's actions by association, yet oddly absent from this list, and something you'd think would matter a great deal to Barristan, is participation in (or watching) the Sack of King's Landing.
  

[1000 Needles]

Regarding Jorah and Dany:

I don't believe Jorah is talking down to Dany. I think the problem here is that Jorah is thinking in terms of a logical military strategy, while Dany is relying on instinct, intuition, prophecy, and magic to get what she wants.

I think he does have a fatherly concern for her, as well as considerable romantic interest, but at this point I think he's trying to keep her from getting taken advantage of. Her insistance on doing illogical things flies completely in the face of his more pragmatic approach and gives him cause for concern.

[Alexia]

I just went back to the first thread (first page, btw) to see why we thought it was Ned too. And Viserys had told Dany that the lords Lannister and Stark were responsible for the Sack, which is what spurred the original conversation. So there is textual evidence of Northern involvement, besides Jorah's observation about the Sack and statement that:

There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs.

I interpret this to mean that Jorah himself has a savage beast within him and perhaps is ashamed of things he participated in during the sack. Why else say "every man" if that excludes himself?

• Ned's general disgust at Robert's being OK with what the Lannisters had done, especially with regard to the murders of Rhaenys and Aegon, and the rape and murder of Elia.
  

See, this is something else that I think serves as evidence of Northern involvement in the Sack. Ned is outraged (outraged, I tell you!) about the deaths of Elia and her children (all three of whom are highborn). If he ever even refers to the Sack, let alone with the outrage he feels over Elia and her children, I'd ask you to post the quote. Because I don't think he cared.

[Sevumar]

I just went back to the first thread (first page, btw) to see why we thought it was Ned too. And Viserys had told Dany that the lords Lannister and Stark were responsible for the Sack, which is what spurred the original conversation. So there is textual evidence of Northern involvement, besides Jorah's observation about the Sack and statement that:

Viserys has no firsthand knowledge of the sack, since Willem Darry had fled to Dragonstone with him and Queen Rhaella before the sack occurred. Viserys has not proven to be a reliable source of information on the war or things Robert did in the past, so I fail to see why he should be considered so now.

I don't think Jorah's speaking about things he did here. He's making a general statement about the kinds of things ordinary men do when they're turned into soldiers so that he can contrast with the Unsullied, who are taught unflinching obedience. There's absolutely no reason to assume Jorah participated in the sack of King's Landing. We've seen him speak in general terms about "the way things are in the world" before when he's trying to educate Dany about the realities of war.

See, this is something else that I think serves as evidence of Northern involvement in the Sack. Ned is outraged (outraged, I tell you!) about the deaths of Elia and her children (all three of whom are highborn). If he ever even refers to the Sack, let alone with the outrage he feels over Elia and her children, I'd ask you to post the quote. Because I don't think he cared.

Ned is outraged about the murder of children and the rape of women who are at the mercy of their captors/enemies. We see this theme of his opposition to the murder of children over and over in the book, and there's no reason to assume he'd stop being against the murder of children when they're not highborn. So again, there's no direct evidence of Northern participation in the sack.

You can see in my post above that there are several good pieces of circumstantial evidence pointing to sole Lannister responsibility.

[mediocre cheese]

The whole aspect of the quote leads me to think the northern army was involved. If it was just lannister forces, why would he say every man? If Ned Stark is capable of training and controlling his men so that no war crimes are commited why would jorah bring this up?

If the idea is that the reason KL got sacked was because tywin lannister ordered his men to sack KL, whereas Ned Stark would not have done so the whole point makes no sense. Why even bring up king's landing being sacked if the reason babies got killed was because tywin lannister had ordered his men to do so, whereas the northern soldiers refrained from doing so. Jorah is telling her to buy unsullied. The reason he gives is because unsullied, unlike other soldiers will not commit war crimes (there is a beast in every man). If the army he served with committed no war crimes and the only reason all those atrocities got committed was because tywin allowed/commanded his forces to do so, he needn't have said this.

If Jorah a northerner sees westernmen savagely sacking a city, while he and his troops took no part in it, would his response be "there is a beast in every man"? I'd presume it would be far more "these lannister soldiers are savages". The quote seems to fit far more with someone who has witnessed that even well-intentioned commanders can commit war crimes, because war naturally unleashes violence inherent in soldiers, who then can not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants.

Also I would note that historical sackings of cities generally lasted for days. The sack of rome by the visigoths and in 1527 by imperial troops lasted 3 days as did the sack of Antwerp by the spanish in 1576 and the sack of Constantinople by the crusaders. The sack of Baghdad by the mongols lasted a week whereas the vandals sacked rome for 2 weeks. As Ned and his forced got to KL on the same day as the lannisters they would have either arrived during the middle of the sack (not after) or it was an exceptionally short sacking.

[Sevumar]

If Jorah a northerner sees westernmen savagely sacking a city, while he and his troops took no part in it, would his response be "there is a beast in every man"? I'd presume it would be far more "these lannister soldiers are savages". The quote seems to fit far more with someone who has witnessed that even well-intentioned commanders can commit war crimes, because war naturally unleashes violence inherent in soldiers, who then can not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants.

The "beast in every man" quote is simply there to set up the comparison with the Unsullied. He's contrasting "normal" levies with the troops he's advocating that she use, and he's presenting yet another advantage to using Unsullied: they won't loot or pillage without orders to do so.

As Ned and his forced got to KL on the same day as the lannisters they would have either arrived during the middle of the sack (not after) or it was an exceptionally short sacking.

Jorah's quote seems to specifically set the time frame for the sack to a single day. He says "that day" and not "those days" right after saying he saw King's Landing after the sack, which a lot of people in the thread seem to forget. If he'd seen it during the sack, he'd've said during.

There's also a timeline problem with Ned's army dispersing into the city to participate in the sack. He's reported to have left with his army immediately after the argument with Robert over the murders of Targaryen noncombatants. He can't leave with that speed if his army is all over the city looting, raping and pillaging, as it would take hours to locate them all and get them back into marching order.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

If someone or something comes out later and confirms specific Northern participation in the violence toward civilians, I'll believe it, but without direct evidence of participation, there's no good reason to assume the Northern forces took part.

AverageCheese nicely sums of my thoughts on this. But again it's rather beside the point.

Oppose, yes, but you'd hope that she, like Barristan, would realize the tragedy of having to fight one of the few enough virtuous people in the realm

Okay? I suppose that would be nice, but it's hardly a dealbreaker.

Dany knows that she has nothing to offer in return for Qartheen assistance, yet she persists in acting as though she has some right to expect them to help her.

In that Dany is once again reacting. The moment she entered Quarth, she was told you are worth all the gold in the iron bank because you are the mother of dragons. She expects them to help her because they said they would help her and in fact did help her. Where exactly is the petulance in that?

I think she'd either have to come up with something to offer the Qartheen in return for their help, because it's extremely unrealistic for her to sit there and believe that people in the city are just going to give her resources for nothing.

She's just being honest. She's saying, "yeah thanks for all the gifts and all, but I really don't need them. I need to get to Westeros."

Also she has something of incalculable value to offer. Seeing the Dragons, and having as a friend and ally, the owner of the only dragons in existence. There's a reason the Quartheen began showering her with gifts the moment she entered the city. Even a glimpse of these creatures is worth a lot to the powerful of Quarth. Unfortunately once they've taken what they want, the Quartheen discard her.

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the fact that the most rabid Dany partisans on the board see Jorah "talking down" to her. I've brought up this topic with others who are more objective about Dany, and they don't see any consistent condescension on Jorah's part either. As I said before, jealousy really only starts to become an obvious motivation in Jorah's behavior once we're in the last chapter of this book and into ASoS.

Um Alexia isn't what I would call at "rabid Dany Partisan, quite the opposite really. She's the one that brought this up in the first place. It's not really fair to throw around fanboy accusations as the reason for an opinion that I hold. I have refrained from saying you have a pro-Jorah agenda.

He is definitely jealous of Xaro - or rather his mistrust of him is in part founded on jealousy. He's the first but hardly the last man Jorah feels threatened by. I think these feelings are natural, and totally an extension of his strong feelings for Daenerys. In fact it would be really odd to me if any man didn't feel jealous of a man shamelessly showering the woman he loves with complements and promises of pleasure and love for all time. Considering Jorah is definitely the jealous type as becomes obvious later, I would find it impossible to believe that he wouldn't feel jealous under the circumstances.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

There's also a timeline problem with Ned's army dispersing into the city to participate in the sack. He's reported to have left with his army immediately after the argument with Robert over the murders of Targaryen noncombatants. He can't leave with that speed if his army is all over the city looting, raping and pillaging, as it would take hours to locate them all and get them back into marching order.

Again I really don't think this argument has anything substative to do with the Dany debate any longer but...

Robert arrived in King's Landing several days after Tywin and Ned took the city - Ned had traveled ahead with the Van. That's plenty of time for Ned to have rounded up his men and gotten them under discipline post-sack before Robert arrived.

[mediocre cheese]

The "beast in every man" quote is simply there to set up the comparison with the Unsullied. He's contrasting "normal" levies with the troops he's advocating that she use, and he's presenting yet another advantage to using Unsullied: they won't loot or pillage without orders to do so.

Right but if the northern army didn't do any pillaging the quote makes no sense. Apparently the northern army, the only army Jorah has ever served with in westeros, also didn't do any pillaging because their commander ordered them not to do so (because he's a virtuous guy). Jorah would then recommend buying unsullied, because unlike "normal" levies they don't pillage without orders to do so? According to this theory the normal levies he fought with also didn't pillage without orders to do so. The only army that did the pillaging was the lannister one that was ordered to do so. That makes for no contrast at all between westerosi armies and unsullied.

Edit:

Essentially this: If Tywin and Ned both had unsullied armies, rather than westerosi ones, tywin's would have pillaged the city because he orders looting and destruction, whereas Ned's wouldn't have because Ned doesn't give these sort of orders. I think everyone would agree to that. What your claiming is that the same thing happened with westerosi armies, that ned's army refrained from war crimes because no orders to commit them were given. If that was the case however, why would jorah ever bring up the sack of KL at all? The exact same thing would have happened regardless of whether the soldiers were unsullied or "normal levies" in that scenario. If however, ned did not give orders to sack the city, but his soldiers did so anyway, because "There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs. The scent of blood is all it takes to wake him." then he would bring it up, because its a perfect example of the benefits of having unsullied soldiers.

[Sevumar]

Right but if the northern army didn't do any pillaging the quote makes no sense. Apparently the northern army, the only army Jorah has ever served with in westeros, also didn't do any pillaging because their commander ordered them not to do so (because he's a virtuous guy).

I don't see how this makes the quote make no sense. We have 2 parts to what Jorah is saying here: that he saw the aftermath of the sack of King's Landing, evidence that these particular cruelties were perpetrated upon the city by the conquering army (the Lannisters). He then goes on to say that normal men do these kinds of things in war because there is savagery beneath the surface of normal people, but that's not anything to worry about with the Unsullied. A general observation about human behavior in warfare, particularly when he saw the evidence of such behavior, doesn't automatically implicate him or the people he was serving with. Remember, he saw it after it happened, not during.

Jorah would then recommend buying unsullied, because unlike "normal" levies they don't pillage without orders to do so? According to this theory the normal levies he fought with also didn't pillage without orders to do so.

No, a "normal" army would, unless stopped by their commander. What's at issue is the default behavior. Without directions not to, normal men will pillage. In the absence of any kind of direction, the Unsullied will not. That's pretty clear.

Robert arrived in King's Landing several days after Tywin and Ned took the city - Ned had traveled ahead with the Van. That's plenty of time for Ned to have rounded up his men and gotten them under discipline post-sack before Robert arrived.

I don't recall seeing anything that specifies that Robert arrived several days after the city was taken. Can you post the reference? The fact that Tywin presented the corpses of the children to Robert wrapped in Lannister cloaks suggests it's the same day as the sack, otherwise the bodies would've begun to putrefy and smell.

[Alkion]

I'm not normally one for posting on this board, though I've been reading it off and on for over a decade. It seems rather ridiculous that suddenly there would be all these people so certain that the Stark vanguard participated in the sack of KL when it's been well established for years that they did not.

There have been several plausible timelines for a sack of KL in which the Stark host did not participate, for example here:

http://www.westeros....FAQ/Entry/1992/ (note that the writers of that timeline - that only mention the Lannisters - are working directly with GRRM on a book about the world)

and it has been discussed to death, for example here: http://asoiaf.wester...-kings-landing/

and here: http://asoiaf.wester...a-and-her-kids/

At least one of those threads is recently active, and probably a far better venue for this sort of discussion.

Point is, there is no real evidence whatsoever that the Stark-led vanguard participated in the sack on KL.

-Martin has, when referring to the sack, only ever mentioned the Lannisters, and never once the northmen or the Starks. At least not in anything google could turn up (feel free to prove me wrong, though). In fact, through several different searches, the only time I could find anyone accusing Ned's van of sacking KL is this thread, right here.

-Jorah states that he saw the city after the sack. There is nothing anywhere else in the story to indicate he is lying here. His quote about the savage beast bears no acknowledgement at all of that army being part of it, just that warriors have that within them, and it has always been a problem in that type of warfare. The only thing that can be taken from that quote is a hint of an acknowledgement that had he been there in Tywin's host, he may have taken part in it as well. To take a philosophical quote about the nature of medieval war and take it as an admission of guilt is to stretch credibility well beyond the breaking point. It is a thought on the nature of man, much akin to his "The peasants pray for rain..." speech.

-As someone else pointed out earlier, Barristan didn't use it against Jorah when trying to thoroughly character-assassinate him, and can you really believe he wouldn't?

-Eddard makes it clear that he wants no association with the taking/sack of KL:

Robert gave an impatient shake of his head. "Instead you found that our men had already taken the city. What of it?"

"Not our men," Ned said patiently. "Lannister men."

Anyway, this thread seems to have gone off the rails, maybe it's time for the next chapter summary to right it?

[Alkion]

Also I would note that historical sackings of cities generally lasted for days. The sack of rome by the visigoths and in 1527 by imperial troops lasted 3 days as did the sack of Antwerp by the spanish in 1576 and the sack of Constantinople by the crusaders. The sack of Baghdad by the mongols lasted a week whereas the vandals sacked rome for 2 weeks. As Ned and his forced got to KL on the same day as the lannisters they would have either arrived during the middle of the sack (not after) or it was an exceptionally short sacking.

AverageCheese, your argument here is based on a false premise, it is true that ancient and medieval sacks lasted more than a day (and as a completely inconsequential point, the sack of Rome in 410 was NOT a traditional sack at all), but we are given no evidence that this is true in Martin's world. In fact, the quote talked about above refers to "that day", singular, as well as it being one day being the only one that really fits the timeline. Unless we have another source that directly contradicts that, we must assume that the sack took place in one day.

Historical context is a worthwhile source for consideration outside of the known facts, but it must be subject to any source within the text, no matter how iffy that source may be, as the real world is not canonical in any way in the Ice and Fire world. Unless there is textual evidence contradicting the claim of "that day", then arguments based off of that information are specious.

In other words, it's Martin's world, we just read in it. If he wants it to be a day, it's a day.

[Alexia]

And I'm still going to ask for one (just one) quote in which Ned speaks in condemnation of (even if only by implication) of the Sack. Just one. There are numerous quotes about Elia and about Rhaegar's children. Can I just get one quote about the Sack of King's Landing?