Bronn/Shae double standard v. 2

[mambru]

I would not agree with you on something thou. Prostitute or a locksmith, being a personal servant to somebody for considerable amount of time implies some degree of loyalty.

My job is the closest one to being a prostitute - I am a lawyer. I must pretend that I support my client claim. I would considered it to be wrong to use knowledge gained in a work with a client, against him latter, even if it is not something falling under lawyer client privilege, but lets say something personal. I would also consider it wrong for example, "to jump wagon" and go represent other side after long a emotional divorce trial.

There is a critical difference - with prostitutes, the client is not just buying the use of an attractive body. With all prostitutes, save in the briefest transactions (pants down, five minutes, never-see-you again experience), the client is also buying lies. The lies are known to be lies by both parties (at least, as long as the client has two brain cells to rub together) but they enhance the client's experience, thus raising the financial reward and increasing repeat business. Lies like, "You're looking hot tonight. Oh, it's so big. Oh, honey, oh, yes, yes, yesss..." How successful would a prostitute be if she actually told the truth of what she was thinking: "Deodorant - look into it. I've seen bigger - today, in fact. Nope, not doing it for me. Could you please get it over with, already?" If a lawyer believed that his duty includes lying flattery of the client at all times, regardless of whether the hard truth might be better for the client to hear, IMO he'd be a pretty sucky lawyer. But the prostitute MUST lie, not just for the sake of her financial success but also frequently for her physical safety - a lot of prostitutes get whaled on and even killed by displeased clients (though of course, some psychos kill prostitutes for no more reason than kicks and giggles).

Tyrion originally was fully aware that he was buying deception as well as sex from Shae - in fact, he was aware that the skill of the lies enhanced the pleasure of the experience. However, over time he preferred to believe that the lies were true, and he fell in love with them, and killed her for revealing that they were really and truly the lies that he had (in full knowledge) bought and paid for. This might be a sad commentary on how stuck on Tysha he was, that a guy as smart as he could deceive himself by trying to rewrite history to make Shae play a version of Tysha in which she and Tyrion live happily ever after together. It might also be a commentary on Tyrion's desire for instant gratification and his cowardice. He has charm; if he'd worked to woo the right woman (say, a widow with enough experience of the world to value more than surface appeal), he could have had real love. Instead, he preferred to buy immediate guaranteed acceptance and the simulation of affection with money he has in abundance and doesn't value much, rather than risk rejection and expend effort in actually getting to KNOW a woman (what does he know about Shae? Nothing, really) and win her love with that knowledge. Pathetic - and not in a good way.

As for Bronn - IA that if berzerk Cersei had been in charge of the investigation, every acquaintance of Tyrion would have been tortured indiscriminately. But Tywin's in charge, and he's rational and cold-blooded. Bronn's not a nobody anymore. He was valuable and dangerous enough that Tywin gave him a knighthood, both to reward him for his service as a hero of the Blackwater and to draw his loyalty away from Tyrion. Tywin values good soldiers. Torturing and breaking Bronn would be, to him, a waste, especially if it were not necessary. He had enough testimony to condemn Tyrion without him.

Shae is different, however. Bronn already belongs to the lowest rungs of the aristocracy - through Tywin's own initiative. Shae is an absolute nobody. Bronn is a warrior, a class Tywin values. Shae is a prostitute - a class Tywin completely despises. Tywin long ago expressed willingness to kill Shae for little reason...at the time of the trial, Shae's life is forfeit unless the services she renders are satisfying - both in testimony in court and in bed. So she has a really great incentive to make both REALLY GOOD (hence the Giant of Lannister tidbit).

[Alexia]

As far as we know, Yaya was asked NO questions, except to confirm that Tyrion paid regularly for her services. When she confirmed this, she was whipped, not so much as punishment to Yaya, but as punishment of Tyrion.

Notation: Alayaya was whipped in direct retribution for Tyrion's threat to personally rape Tommen if anything was done to her.

As far as we know, she was asked no questions at all -- just snatched by the Kettleblacks and dragged off screaming. For all we know, she was protesting and pleading the entire way that Tyrion never touched her. The only thing we can say is that she didn't volunteer any of Tyrion's secrets -- but neither did Shae, who was arrested and interrogated (Alayaya was not interrogated) in a criminal trial, and who Varys had promised to reveal if asked.

[Alexia]

There is a critical difference - with prostitutes, the client is not just buying the use of an attractive body. With all prostitutes, save in the briefest transactions (pants down, five minutes, never-see-you again experience), the client is also buying lies. The lies are known to be lies by both parties (at least, as long as the client has two brain cells to rub together) but they enhance the client's experience, thus raising the financial reward and increasing repeat business. Lies like, "You're looking hot tonight. Oh, it's so big. Oh, honey, oh, yes, yes, yesss..." How successful would a prostitute be if she actually told the truth of what she was thinking: "Deodorant - look into it. I've seen bigger - today, in fact. Nope, not doing it for me. Could you please get it over with, already?" If a lawyer believed that his duty includes lying flattery of the client at all times, regardless of whether the hard truth might be better for the client to hear, IMO he'd be a pretty sucky lawyer. But the prostitute MUST lie, not just for the sake of her financial success but also frequently for her physical safety - a lot of prostitutes get whaled on and even killed by displeased clients (though of course, some psychos kill prostitutes for no more reason than kicks and giggles).

It took me a moment to find it, but I did. Diary of a Sex Slave

The man examined You Mi's petite frame, her brown eyes and her dark hair, which fell like silk to her shoulders.

He pointed at her.

You Mi led him from the lobby to one of the four upstairs massage rooms and told him to shower in the bathtub behind a curtain in the corner.

"This is my first time," he said.

It was a line You Mi heard daily inside Sun Spa.

The man was athletic, muscular. After showering, he led her to the bed and stretched out on his stomach. You Mi began massaging his shoulders.

Suddenly, he jumped off the bed, declared he didn't need a massage and yanked off her white camisole.

He threw her to the mattress and forced himself on her, pulling her hair and twisting her small body in so many ways that she screamed in pain.

Then the man's eyes went blank. He began choking her. She heard sounds of pleasure escape his throat. He seemed to be enjoying it.

The manager burst through the door. "What's going on?" she shouted in Korean.

"Help me!" You Mi gasped.

The man released his grip. The manager turned her attention to the customer.

"I'm sorry she disappointed you," she said, refunding his $50. A disgruntled john might tip off the police.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/08/MNGAULL53D1.DTL#ixzz1ihd2OTN1

After hearing her mother's voice, You Mi became an actress.

She smiled at every customer from the couch, hoping to be chosen. She learned a little more English: "How is your wife, how old is your son, what did you do today?" to feign interest so the man would become a regular.

Gone was the sullen young woman who kept her eyes down and spoke only when spoken to. She told jokes. She flirted.

She turned her brain off.

You Mi asked for massage technique tips from the other women and learned how to give such good rubdowns that most of the customer's allotted 45 minutes would slip by before he would realize it and demand sexual attention.

For the first time, she had repeat clients.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/10/MNGN9LFHRO1.DTL&ao=3#ixzz1ihdxz800

[Alexia]

I missed this quote.

You Mi charmed each man into thinking he was her favorite. Many considered themselves her boyfriend. They all wanted her cell-phone number.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/10/MNGN9LFHRO1.DTL&ao=3#ixzz1ihiddILe

[1234567]

@ Alexia

:stillsick: That poor bloody girl.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

You are confused. The only difficulty such a person faces is in NOT giving the interrogator the answer the interrogator expects. The only answer suspected in this case was that she was Tyrion's whore. That is all she had to say to satisfy them.

It is also true that prolonged unrelenting torture will tear down all bounderies of the mind, break the spirit, and cause a person to spill everything they know. But Alayaya did not face that kind of torture.

Stop wasting my time. It is her mother's secret, whoever else's secret it may have been.

She only gave the interrogator the answers the interrogator expected. It is difficult to do otherwise, truth or not.

Let's tie you up and whip you and see what answers you give. Torture is torture, there are no one means that is better than other.

[1234567]

Let's tie you up and whip you and see what answers you give. Torture is torture, there are no one means that is better than other.

Whipping is also not just torture (as in pain to extract information) but also a punishment. I always thought Yaya was punished with whipping, not tortured for information.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Whipping is also not just torture (as in pain to extract information) but also a punishment. I always thought Yaya was punished with whipping, not tortured for information.

Semantics. It is possible to use torture as a punishment regardless of what device is used.

[Fearsome Fred]

Let's tie you up and whip you and see what answers you give.

If no-one asks me any questions, my answers will probably be limited to screams of pain. This is what normally happens during whippings.

Torture is torture, there are no one means that is better than other.

Simply not true. But irrelevant, unless questions are asked.

[Fearsome Fred]

Semantics.

No. Just Ororo727 refusing to understand.

[Alexia]

If no-one asks me any questions, my answers will probably be limited to screams of pain. This is what normally happens during whippings.

That's what I would imagine myself. :uhoh:

Whipping is also not just torture (as in pain to extract information) but also a punishment. I always thought Yaya was punished with whipping, not tortured for information.

You are correct. She was punished because Tyrion threatened to rape and beat Tommen personally if any harm came to her.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

If no-one asks me any questions, my answers will probably be limited to screams of pain. This is what normally happens during whippings.

Simply not true. But irrelevant, unless questions are asked.

Touche.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

No. Just Ororo727 refusing to understand.

I understand completely. We agree to disagree. Bottom-line is, I'm still glad that Shae's character was killed off and I hope to see more Bronn.

[Rhaegar Stark]

Double standards? Both their situations were entirely different and they both handled their situations differently. It is like comparing apples and oranges.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Double standards? Both their situations were entirely different and they both handled their situations differently. It is like comparing apples and oranges.

You're in trouble now..... :laugh:

[Rhaegar Stark]

lol oh no...I hear them coming!!!! (darts out of the forum)

[Yarp]

Shae actively participated in sentencing Tyrion to death. Bronn just said "I'm not fighting for you."

Also, "deserve's got nothin' to do with it."

[dark sister]

She only gave the interrogator the answers the interrogator expected.

You yourself are speculating that Yaya was interrogated. The text only seems to indicate that she was found, resisted being taken, and was beaten for resisting. I didn't speculate about anything.

But then below you say:

As far as we know, Yaya was asked NO questions, except (maybe) to confirm that Tyrion paid regularly for her services. When she confirmed this, she was whipped, not so much as punishment to Yaya, but as punishment of Tyrion.

So now you're saying that Yaya was not interrogated - then again you speculate that maybe she was asked one question. Isn't that contradictory when you chide me for speculation, Fearsome Fred?

Feel free to speculate otherwise in order to demonize Shae so you can justify the murder of Shae ... but that is all you are doing.

Obviously you didn't read anything I wrote about Shae except for when I quoted you, because if you did, you'd know that I never "demonized" her. That's a pretty strong word to use, considering that I said she was manipulative, embarrassed Tyrion, was ballsy, that her stories of her past didn't match up...and that she DIDN'T DESERVE TO BE MURDERED.

Not at all. Why should I? They probably do (being different people and all) but we know next to nothing about the real Shae, and we know even less about the real Alayaya.

Is this difference supposed to refect favorably on one and against the other?

That's true about the both of them, because Shae gave different accounts of her past and most likely lied to Tyrion about enjoying his touch, missing him when he was away, etc., and Yaya had very little dialogue, but I've always believed that actions speak louder than words, and that's where I see a huge difference in the two prostitutes. And I wouldn't say that their reasons for going into prostitution make one look better than the other, I was using an example to show one way in which they're different.

Insult noted, Dark Sister.

;) You seem to like dishing them out yourself, so I couldn't help myself. Btw, I italicized your name because you seem to enjoy being fearsome to posters whose comments you dislike.

I think it is also overlooked that she did not volunteer the private details of their sex life. Prince Oberyn asked her to provide them.

I addressed the fact that Shae didn't answer Oberyn's question about what "shameful sex acts" Tyrion did with Shae in the original Bronn/Shae thread. I agree that it's overlooked.

[Fearsome Fred]

You yourself are speculating that Yaya was interrogated.

She may or may not have been interrogated. I have taken no position that depends on the assumption that she was interrogated.

So now you're saying that Yaya was not interrogated - then again you speculate that maybe she was asked one question. Isn't that contradictory when you chide me for speculation, Fearsome Fred?

What argument are you accusing me of making that depends on the number of questions asked?

but I've always believed that actions speak louder than words, and that's where I see a huge difference in the two prostitutes.

Except you base this on pure speculation: specifically on the idea that Yaya withstood, for Tyrion's sake, an interrogation matching that endured by Shae. And when I point out to you that you cannot establish that your premises are true, your only response is that I cannot prove them false. Weak!

[Sand Snake No. 9]

So now you're saying that Yaya was not interrogated - then again you speculate that maybe she was asked one question. Isn't that contradictory when you chide me for speculation, Fearsome Fred?

Some people, when faced with false arrest, would volunteer information to avoid it. Some people, when punished for someone else's wrongdoing (in this case, another episode of Tyrion's smart mouth), might become resentful and spill that other person's secrets. Alayaya did neither of these things, and as far as I can remember, neither she nor her mother received any special consideration from Tyrion that would make imprisonment and whipping worthwhile. I think she deserves respect for remaining silent, on her own, no comparison to Shae required.