Technological evolution in the Martin's Universe.

[KhalKroeff]

One thing i find it strange is that Mankind in the world of fire and ice are stagnated trought thousands of years when we are talking about technology.

If we looked at Westeros, or even at the Free Cities ( which seems to be a little more evolved since they have binocular lents for example) its comparable to our middle ages during the 12th -14th centuries (still not so different from the roman from the 1th century). if we looked at our world, it took us half a millenium to evolve to a complete different state of civilization. why does the world in the ice and fire does not go in that way? ( since they're the same humans )

My theory is that the magic present in the world keeps the technology stagnated...

Do you guys have some theories about that?

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Didn't care?

It's fantasy, anything's possible. They don't have the Roman church who obstructs such things for example. They don't have a Calvijn, or da Vinci. There are no real philosophers etc in Westeros. Closest are the maesters, but the rest is just nobility or smallfolk.

[I am a bastard's bastard]

ith the exception of the last two hundred years scientific progressin has been phenomenally slow, we wher fighting swords and shields for at leas 8000 years of recorded history before the invention of the gun. fair there where minor advancements like the trebuchet etc but beyond that warfare was the same for milennia.

the same goes for medicine like surgery

[KhalKroeff]

Didn't care?

It's fantasy, anything's possible. They don't have the Roman church who obstructs such things for example. They don't have a Calvijn, or da Vinci. There are no real philosophers etc in Westeros. Closest are the maesters, but the rest is just nobility or smallfolk.

Yes but, somehow they evolved from cave man to the medieval days in westeros, why they stopped for thousands of years?

[I am a bastard's bastard]

maybe two hundred years was a bit underestimate but definite later half of the millenia

[Arkantos]

What technology are you expecting them to come up with?

Discoveries aren't a given, a lot of mankinds most important inventions are based on discoveries which we stumbled upon by having the luck of the right ingredients being used by an experimental guy.

I don't see how they can be expected to have progressed further, in what way?

[KhalKroeff]

ith the exception of the last two hundred years scientific progressin has been phenomenally slow, we wher fighting swords and shields for at leas 8000 years of recorded history before the invention of the gun. fair there where minor advancements like the trebuchet etc but beyond that warfare was the same for milennia.

the same goes for medicine like surgery

8000 years its the neolithical period, the Iron age only came about 1500 BC ( with the first Swords and Daggers)

[ab aeterno]

Yes but, somehow they evolved from cave man to the medieval days in westeros, why they stopped for thousands of years?

The same was true in real life. Between the creation of the bow and arrow and gunpowder there were thousands of years with relatively little evolution in warfare. Cavalry went from being skirmishers to shock cavalry with Alexander, ballistas and catapults were created, but those didn't massively alter the rules or composition of warfare. Armor got better, weapons got sharper, larger and heavier, but the fundamentals didn't alter.

[KhalKroeff]

What technology are you expecting them to come up with?

Discoveries aren't a given, a lot of mankinds most important inventions are based on discoveries which we stumbled upon by having the luck of the right ingredients being used by an experimental guy.

I don't see how they can be expected to have progressed further, in what way?

Iam only saying, The house Stark have eight thousand years for example, can u imagine that in our world? eight thousand years ago we were getting out of caves still ( just discovering the fire)!

[I am a bastard's bastard]

8000 years its the neolithical period, the Iron age only came about 1500 BC ( with the first Swords and Daggers)

sorry at least 6000 though because we know egyptians had swords, not very good ones and copper and bronze,

and spears definitely neoithic just stone headed so its only evolution for tjousands of years was a metal head and better shafts, same concept with bows and arrows,

saying the principles didnt evolve just how to make them harder sharper better

once you get to steel weaponry the onl next advancement is the gun

[KhalKroeff]

The same was true in real life. Between the creation of the bow and arrow and gunpowder there were thousands of years with relatively little evolution in warfare. Cavalry went from being skirmishers to shock cavalry with Alexander, ballistas and catapults were created, but those didn't massively alter the rules or composition of warfare. Armor got better, weapons got sharper, larger and heavier, but the fundamentals didn't alter.

Alexander the great was "only" 2500 years ago, in Westeros the kingdoms were already formed in that time with the same medieval technology...

[Arkantos]

Iam only saying, The house Stark have eight thousand years for example, can u imagine that in our world? eight thousand years ago we were getting out of caves still ( just discovering the fire)!

The time scale is irrelevant, we're lucky to have what we have today, technological innovation doesn't run on a straight line from start to finish.

[ab aeterno]

Iam only saying, The house Stark have eight thousand years for example, can u imagine that in our world? eight thousand years ago we were getting out of caves still ( just discovering the fire)!

We developed farming around about 10k years ago, so it's not necessarily out of the question.The Bronze Age began around about 5,000 years ago. It's only fiction: a little exaggerated, sure, but not really outside the realm of possibility.

Alexander the great was "only" 2500 years ago, in Westeros the kingdoms were already formed in that time with the same medieval technology...

But Alexander didn't create bows, arrows or swords, he was just responsible for the first (real, known) use of heavy cavalry. It's just like the timeline is stretched, that's all, largely for the same reasons as in LoTR, or even in the Mass Effect video game series: it allows important history to be forgotten.

[ab aeterno]

Also, concerning LoTR, the same is largely true for that. Nothing seems to have changed in Middle Earth for millenia. Heck, some of the same people are still around. In LotR the only people who actually innovate are the Orcs and Sauron/Saruman, and that was one of their greatest crimes- basic industrialization.

[Scipio Africanus]

Didn't care?

It's fantasy, anything's possible. They don't have the Roman church who obstructs such things for example. They don't have a Calvijn, or da Vinci. There are no real philosophers etc in Westeros. Closest are the maesters, but the rest is just nobility or smallfolk.

What irks me to no end is that high fantasy settings have pikes, halbards, greatswords, trebuchets, full plate mail etc but no gunpowder weapons. Part of the developement if those weapons, fortifications and tactics was due to the introduction of gunpower weapons.

What Martin is doing is no different in that respect from all the other fantasy writers except magic in his world isn't that common nor prevelant.

The European churches weren't the driving force of technology btw. I'd say quite the opposite.

As for Martin timeline I always got the impression people inbook exagerrated the timeline (8000 years is a LONG time in human history, not so much for Earth though) or that Martin's universe just moved in a parallel universe unsimilar to ours.

[KhalKroeff]

We developed farming around about 10k years ago, so it's not necessarily out of the question.The Bronze Age began around about 5,000 years ago. It's only fiction: a little exaggerated, sure, but not really outside the realm of possibility.

But Alexander didn't create bows, arrows or swords, he was just responsible for the first (real, known) use of heavy cavalry. It's just like the timeline is stretched, that's all, largely for the same reasons as in LoTR, or even in the Mass Effect video game series: it allows important history to be forgotten.

Mass Effect takes place at the 23th century, i believe its possible we will be conquering the space in two hundred years...

LoTR has the presence of magic, as the Ice and Fire, that's what i said at my first post, i believe magic makes the humans "lazy" =)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Two facts confirmed in the books:

1.) The timeline is unreliable. There is discussion between maesters whether the Andal invasion was 2000 or 4000 years ago, and First Men kings ruled for centuries each, implicating that the "real" history of Westeros should be shortened by half at least.

2.) The guys in Westeros project their own contemporary culture and techlevel backwards. They have stories of knights centuries before there were knights. It happened the same way in the real world. renaissance church paintings for example depicted roman legonnaires as contemporary landsknechts and King David as a knight in full plate.

A sense of technological development occurs only to cultures with a good, widespread education, read: modern culture.

[ab aeterno]

Mass Effect takes place at the 23th century, i believe its possible we will be conquering the space in two hundred years...

LoTR has the presence of magic, as the Ice and Fire, that's what i said at my first post, i believe magic makes the humans "lazy" =)

I don't think that its lazy just because they have no need of it. But to be honest, the main reason for all of this is because GRRM wanted to set ASOIAF in a medieval worth because it was inspired by, among other things, the War of the Roses, and he choose to have a history which is largely fuedal and medieval as well. I really don't think he was massively concerned about the length of their historical period or their technology, especially considering he hasn't written most of the history yet. Usually I'm all for breaking down minor details and issues, but I think in this case it's unncessary. Yes, magic might slow the technological development, but I think it is more likely that GRRM just wanted a medieval world, rather than period. Otherwise he could have just set it on our Earth.

[Erudain]

I don't think is to different from what our history has shown, perhaps a tad slower like in most fantasy genre and is stuck in our 1200s-1300s.

We had some amazing developments in the last 200 years but before that all develpoment was slow, if you we recall:

- Gunpowder was discovered in the V century, but arquebusiers and cannons didn't became the main part of armies until the mid 1400s. People had been waging war and killing each others for thousands of years before that.

Spears, swords, daggers started as bronze, then to iron, then to alloys and steel, catapults became trebuchet, bows became crossbows, etc...but the basic of the weapon was always the same.

- We used horses as main transportation for several thousand years before developing the railways and the combustion engines.

They also were the highlight of every army for like 6000 years up to the beggining of the XIX century were cavalry charges became obsolete due to the increased range of rifles.

- Also used oar and wind bases ships for 3000 years before developing steam engines.

I could go on but if I do I will be tempted to go play some Civilization 5 :bang:

[Darkstar is the Key]

Wow, the OP is spot on here and all of you arguing that it's similar to our timeline, are flipping bananas!!!! Like no semblance of intelligence..... Bottom line is whether westeros has an 8,000 or a 4,000 year history. It's been pretty much the exact same culture for THOUSANDS of years.... and probably thousands of years before that in Valyria. Our middle age lasted less than a 1,000 before we moved on. And it wasn't because of "luck" if Ben Franklin didn't discover electricity, someone else would have.

This whole "no technology" thing is probably the weakest point of GRRM's entire world.