Naathi Prince Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Yeah, that's true but that refers to his tenacity not his generalship. He shows that in abundance.If you are tenacious and not a good commander, you will be a dead tenacious commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
str8 outta Old Town Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Seriously, you are going to make me search through the books all day to find quotes you were too lazy to read in the first place? Tywin Lannister, Ned Stark, and Tyrion Lannister all consider Stannis competent. Ned Stark suggests him for Warden of the East, Tywin Lannister is more concerned with Stannis than Robb Stark OR Renly, despite Stannis having the least amount of supporters. Tyrion Lannister makes the extensive plans for the siege.If you are making a claim that something exists, the burden of proof is on you to show it. We've had tonnes of Stannis threads, and I don't recall anyone ever posting a quote by anyone saying he's a good general. His won battles are mentioned, and I remember various quotes about his tenacity and stubborness, but that only puts him in a league with others, and having lost a battle puts him below various people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 If you are making a claim that something exists, the burden of proof is on you to show it. We've had tonnes of Stannis threads, and I don't recall anyone ever posting a quote by anyone saying he's a good general. His won battles are mentioned, and I remember various quotes about his tenacity and stubborness, but that only puts him in a league with others, and having lost a battle puts him below various people.Having won a battle where the enemy relied on stores of wildfire that no one knew about, and the plot armor Tyrell Lannister alliance to win? Really? He's won multiple battles, and plenty of characters give him his due as a commander. Hell, the wiki article even states that he is an accomplished commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arland Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Having won a battle where the enemy relied on stores of wildfire that no one knew about, and the plot armor Tyrell Lannister alliance to win? Really? He's won multiple battles, and plenty of characters give him his due as a commander. Hell, the wiki article even states that he is an accomplished commander.Good commander should always expect "the unexpected" . That what ranging and cet is for. Stannis choose idiot admiral who blindly committed all his forces into the battle without knowing what expects him. He didn't took into account a possibility of Tywins return and didn't protect his rear. And most importantly he waited too long to strike, while King's Landing was getting riper and riper.So may be Stannis is a great general but in this whole King's Landing issue he was an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daario's*before*Snows Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 So may be Stannis is a great general but in this whole King's Landing issue he was an idiot.When Mary Sue Stannis fails, his cult just blames plot gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Good commander should always expect "the unexpected" . That what ranging and cet is for. Stannis choose idiot admiral who blindly committed all his forces into the battle without knowing what expects him. He didn't took into account a possibility of Tywins return and didn't protect his rear. And most importantly he waited too long to strike, while King's Landing was getting riper and riper.So may be Stannis is a great general but in this whole King's Landing issue he was an idiot.Really? I suppose we should expect a hailstorm to take out Gaum of Diego Garcia any day now. Expect the unexpected you know. He did protect his rear, he just faced a force numerically superior to his own, due to the Tyrells, who literally have no reason to ally with the Lannisters. As for Florent, you can't put Ser Davos in charge there, the lords will get offended and march home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daario's*before*Snows Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 You cant give Stannis all the credit when his men succeed then give him no blame if his men fuck up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 You cant give Stannis all the credit when his men succeed then give him no blame if his men fuck up.Stannis is great with the rank and file, knights, men at arms, peasants...its the lords who give him problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Eh, can you really call Stannis a great commander when he appointed Imry Florent as admiral during the battle of Blackwater Bay when the man had no prior experience whatsoever?Ser Imry did not bother to send scouts ahead as Davos Seaworth had advised. He led the main force "blindly" up the Blackwater and died in the following battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Eh, can you really call Stannis a great commander when he appointed Imry Florent as admiral during the battle of Blackwater Bay when the man had no prior experience whatsoever?We don't know if Imry doesn't have experience. Brightwater Keep is quite close to the sea. Besides, the Florents are the highest ranking House in Stannis' party, and brought him the most men, he is basically stuck picking a Florent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiola Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Kevan was better than Cersei. She maked him look way good by comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnFit Finlay Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Faith had 1,000 trained swords, with all others being untrained and unequipped rabble. Not all of them in the capital (they dispersed at some point during AFFC) Kevan had IIRC some 6000 gold cloaks and in addition Lannister men in Capital (I don't remember how many were) and he could marshal many more if he wished so.Exactly as Tyrel came with swords to King's Landing, Kevan could take with him enough people to threaten High Septon once he learned about Cersei's capture.The Faith is THE FAITH though. If Kevan ordered the Gold Cloaks to storm the Great Sept of Baelor, the small folk would rise up to defend their Gods. Kevan didn't have enough men to fight an entire City and, even if he did, Tommen would be reviled as the Godless King who declared war on the Faith. It would be a massive massive boost to their enemies.As for the original question, I don't think he's over-rated at all. He comes across like a decent person with above average intelligence who would've been a good Regent, which is why Varys killed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMJ Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 The Faith is THE FAITH though. If Kevan ordered the Gold Cloaks to storm the Great Sept of Baelor, the small folk would rise up to defend their Gods.How certain is that? Remember Varys' riddle - it's not a foregone conclusion that the smallfolk would back the priest (The Faith) over the King (Kevan by proxy) vs. the rich man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 How certain is that? Remember Varys' riddle - it's not a foregone conclusion that the smallfolk would back the priest (The Faith) over the King (Kevan by proxy) vs. the rich man.In this scenario, where the sparrows have been inflaming the city against the Crown for months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMJ Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 In this scenario, where the sparrows have been inflaming the city against the Crown for months?Seems to me it still depends - we don't know other than from mostly Cersei's POV what the smallfolk are thinking - granted, it's not good stuff about her, but last we heard they still love the Tyrells. Kevan's goal was making amends with the Tyrells, so theoretically, that would be a formidable counter-balance to the Faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Seems to me it still depends - we don't know other than from mostly Cersei's POV what the smallfolk are thinking - granted, it's not good stuff about her, but last we heard they still love the Tyrells. Kevan's goal was making amends with the Tyrells, so theoretically, that would be a formidable counter-balance to the Faith.Sure, but the Tyrells aren't going to help Kevan save Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaramyrSixchins Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I have doubts about the supposed last good Lannister and here is why.1. "now that's not true he has his mother, and despite your appeal for sympathy his father to"If he knew why not tell Tywin and try to stop that before it caused a war of Five Kings or at least help to hide it better so people like Varys or Littlefinger wouldn't find out? Doing nothing was about as bad as it got; even if it hurt Tywin or made him an accessory to treason he had to do something and didn't.2. "but she had grown into a greedy woman"Her ambition is what made her bad? In other words he doesn't know about any of the evil things Cersei did with Qyburn right there and no doubt plenty of mutilated people who attended the pro-Targ rally. No investigation about what Cersei did? No suspicion that she has an evil genius still loyal to her? No suspicion about all those dissapearing women?3. "Brotherfucker" "Half where yelling insults at her half giving cat whistles"He thinks that helps shore up Tommens legitimacy? The queen mother being exposed as a whore and her looks brought down to just like any other woman helps Tommen with his devine right and gives the public the perception that Stannis and everyone else is wrong?4. "the wickedness of widows is well known"A Sparrow who is sexist enough to think sex crimes are to be expected isn't the mastermind behind the walk of shame; Kevan didn't just agree to it; is he not able to come up with any better ideas to remove Cersei preferably ones that don't hurt the entire house?5. "you promoted a great deal of people beyond their station based on poor advice which I hope will be corrected"Either politeness or considering it was his pov not Cersei's and we see him not thinking of any crime Cersei commits he still thinks she was manipulated.He is supposed to be the best Lannister hope in ADwD but he comes across as indecisive, and too sentimental to investigate his niece and be equipted with the knowledge needed to help her and his family, and he doesn't realize Cersei has done anything evil despite all her crimes in AFfC and thinks Qyburn is loyal to him and not her, and suggested te WoS.Kevan is by no means beyond reproach, but I think these criticisms miss the mark.1) I agree that we have no way of knowing exactly when he found out about the twincest. He probably had it confirmed by Lancel. Even if he didn't, though, even if he knew all along, what was he going to do about it? He watched his brother be shaped by the weakness of his father, he knew firsthand the things that Tywin did to not only restore the Lannister rep, but elevate them, through child murder and marriage, to the most powerful house in the realm. How, exactly, would he have brought twincest to Tywin's attention? Or Robert's? What would have been the fallout for his family? Dead niece, dead nephew, soiled family, loss of power. Even if Tywin could salvage something out of it, and keep his title, keep, prestige, or gold, his twins would die, or war would erupt. Kevan himself tells Tyrion how he, Kevan, resented the humiliations that Tytos, Aerys, and Robert inflicted on Tywin. There was no one in the realm that loved Tywin more, and no one least likely to inform him of the thing that could destroy him on several personal, emotional levels, than Kevan.2) Kevan cites her greed and ambition as the very reason for a "sharp lesson". Qyburn is not even on his radar, compared to war, debt, shoring crumbling alliances, and the Faith. Even if he did find out about Qyburn's doings, as aghast as it may make him, what more can he do to Cersei? Kill her?3 and 4 I'll address together: It is not the goal of the WoS to disprove incest rumors. It was to both strip Cersei of credibility to rule and appease the Faith. Kevan remembers the effectiveness of a similar walk undertaken by Tytos's mistress, so he knows full well the aftermath will have on Cersei's public image. He may have been able to come up with something that will have done this, OR he may have come up w some "punishment" that would've appeased the Faith, but what else could've done both. Remember as well, his wariness of crossing swords with the Faith. He tells Cersei he could, but it would be bloody and a terrible move, and later reminds the small council how they must do whatever it takes to avoid a martial conflict w the Faith in the city streets. Even had he wanted to spare Cersei a WoS, could he have even been able to if the Faith insisted?5) He chastises her on this count for sure, but he definitely holds her responsible for her own actions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMJ Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Sure, but the Tyrells aren't going to help Kevan save Cersei.Well that's certainly true...I was more taking away the original save Cersei scenario and just talking about the King and his proxies vs. the Faith. But yes, when it comes to Cersei, there's no way in hell the Tyrells would lift a finger to save Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WardenOfTheNorth Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I have doubts about the supposed last good Lannister and here is why.1. "now that's not true he has his mother, and despite your appeal for sympathy his father to"If he knew why not tell Tywin and try to stop that before it caused a war of Five Kings or at least help to hide it better so people like Varys or Littlefinger wouldn't find out? Doing nothing was about as bad as it got; even if it hurt Tywin or made him an accessory to treason he had to do something and didn't.2. "but she had grown into a greedy woman"Her ambition is what made her bad? In other words he doesn't know about any of the evil things Cersei did with Qyburn right there and no doubt plenty of mutilated people who attended the pro-Targ rally. No investigation about what Cersei did? No suspicion that she has an evil genius still loyal to her? No suspicion about all those dissapearing women?3. "Brotherfucker" "Half where yelling insults at her half giving cat whistles"He thinks that helps shore up Tommens legitimacy? The queen mother being exposed as a whore and her looks brought down to just like any other woman helps Tommen with his devine right and gives the public the perception that Stannis and everyone else is wrong?4. "the wickedness of widows is well known"A Sparrow who is sexist enough to think sex crimes are to be expected isn't the mastermind behind the walk of shame; Kevan didn't just agree to it; is he not able to come up with any better ideas to remove Cersei preferably ones that don't hurt the entire house?5. "you promoted a great deal of people beyond their station based on poor advice which I hope will be corrected"Either politeness or considering it was his pov not Cersei's and we see him not thinking of any crime Cersei commits he still thinks she was manipulated.He is supposed to be the best Lannister hope in ADwD but he comes across as indecisive, and too sentimental to investigate his niece and be equipted with the knowledge needed to help her and his family, and he doesn't realize Cersei has done anything evil despite all her crimes in AFfC and thinks Qyburn is loyal to him and not her, and suggested te WoS.Who's hyping him? He wasnt even in the books that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whoresbane Umber Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 If only he had survived long enough to make a difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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