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KingAlanI

Is Common Tongue really English?

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There is a reason, the reason being that he chose it to be English. Does he need an explanation why it happens to be English and not something else? No, because you seem to be close to the only person who is up in arms agains this. Since it's plausible English would exist in Westeros (there is not one reason 'AOFJIOAFHA' should be a more likely candidate) he doesn't need any more explanation than that. If tomorrow he decides 'it's really something else, people', from that point on and only then should we be allowed to think it's something else. His world, his rules.

Since you obviously lack knowledge on the books, I'll also tell you that the Andals brought Common to Westeros. It didn't grow 'organically' or 'coincidentally', it was brought to Westeros by conquerors. So much for 'uhh, it's far too coincidental!'

You're the one who's missing the point. If you pay attention, you can make out which language is being spoken, because you are given this information, simply not in every chapter or every time someone starts a new sentence, but, you can make it out from the context.

if I read two Westerosi speaking to each other then it seems natural to asume they're speaking Westerosi.

There is no language called Westerosi. You do not know what it sounds like. Nor is it described in sound by GRRM, unlike all of his other languages. There is a language called German, and everyone in their right mind knows the Germans spoke German.

An overly litteral translation that doesn't take into account differences in Puns, homonyms, Idioms etc. is a bad translation.

You clearly know nothing about language, writing, or translation and should be declared incompetent to even have an opinion on these matters. Some things are impossible to translate correctly, word puns being the best example. That's the whole point. Watch any episode of Blackadder with subtitles, maybe then you'll understand. Only when I read ADwD in English (first ASOIAF book I read in English) I started realizing how much I'd been missing.

Should I have assumed from that the the Gauls and Romans and all the other peoples of historic Europe spoke modern day French? If not, then why make the same assumption about comon tounge (?) of Westeros?

That's not an assumption, that's being dumb. You can't put interpretations on a fantasy world on the same level as the actual world, about which we know things for a fact, because they actually happened, and we have sources about it.

In short, you haven't given one proper reason why it shouldn't be English, or why "AOFJIOAFHA' should be a more likely candidate to be Common.

He's just trying to make the work sound more medieval by sprinkling his language with a some archaic words and phrases. A good Translator would pick up on that and follow suit with some out of date words from her own language. It wouldn't matter if the precise words in question were made to sound archaeic or not, as long as the flavour of the language remained intact.

That's BS and you know it. GRRM is in love with history, English history more than anything. The continent of Westeros, is basically Britain, and his story is known to be inspired by the War of the Roses. He has every reason to have Common be English.

You are also ignoring physical evidence. The letters shown in the show are written not only in our script, but also in English. How 'coincidental' is it that they use the same script we do? How easy would it have been for them to use cryptic signs instead when they are willing to create entire languages just for the show? Why would GRRM withhold such information from the show makers? Seems 'unlikely', yet now, the unlikeliness doesn't seem to bother you. If you can accept this (and you are forced to), it is a small step towards accepting that it is possible for a Fantasy writer to have English as the Common language of his people.

The thing with Fantasy, especially low, 'historical' Fantasy is that it is written about people (especially when they're human!) who are not so different from us, so we can more easily relate to them. Therefore they have much the same traditions as us (killing each other for religion, for example) and yes, also the same languages and script, they come up with the same devices that are all identically shaped to our own (windmills...), tools (swords, hammers...), defensive structures, and you know why this happens? Because changing it just for the purpose of changing it is a colossal waste of time, something no writer will submit himself to.

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There is a reason, the reason being that he chose it to be English. Does he need an explanation why it happens to be English and not something else? No, because you seem to be close to the only person who is up in arms agains this. Since it's plausible English would exist in Westeros (there is not one reason 'AOFJIOAFHA' should be a more likely candidate) he doesn't need any more explanation than that.

Since you obviously lack knowledge on the books, I'll also tell you that the Andals brought Common to Westeros. It didn't grow 'organically' or 'coincidentally', it was brought to Westeros by conquerors.

You're the one who's missing the point. If you pay attention, you can make out which language is being spoken, because you are given this information, simply not in every chapter or every time someone starts a new sentence, but, you can make it out from the context.

It's written in English because he's American and his target audience is American and people in The United States of America speak English. Not even Tolkien was crazy enough to publish the Lord of the Rings in his own made up languages, because no one would be able to read it. English speaking authors write their books in English, whether their characters are from Modern day France or 16th century Japan, Middle Earth or Alpha Centuri. It's written that way so that people can actually read it without learning another language. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

There is no language called Westerosi. You do not know what it sounds like. Nor is it described in sound by GRRM, unlike all of his other languages. There is a language called German, and everyone in their right mind knows the Germans spoke German.

You only know what Valeriyan and Dothrahki sound like from the TV show. Prior to that all that existed were a few isolated words and phrases. By your logic it would mean those languages only had a few unique words and the rest were simply English. Really it just means that GRRM never got around to creating the rest of the language as they weren't necessary for the story. Just as it isn't necessary for him to create Westerosi, or common or whatever you want to call it, as either way the dialogue would still need to be written in English for practical reasons.

You clearly know nothing about language, writing, or translation and should be declared incompetent to even have an opinion on these matters. Some things are impossible to translate correctly, word puns being the best example. That's the whole point. Watch any episode of Blackadder with subtitles, maybe then you'll understand.

Which is exactly what I said. It's like you read my posts then take away the opposite of what i say. Puns were literally the first thing I mentioned as a problem. My point was that If the exact pun doesn't work, and it usually wont, a good translator will use another joke to get the point across. It doesn't matter the precise quip that Tyrion Lannister makes, only that he says something irreverent that carries a similar meaning. If his pun is translated literally the joke is lost, and the whole meaning of his dialogue is changed. The point I am getting at is using the exact words is often far less important than conveying the intent. It sounds to me like you've been reading some very dry translations by people that are unaware of this.

That's not an assumption, that's being dumb. Thinking you can put interpretations on a fantasy world on the same level as the actual world, about which we know things for a fact, because they actually happened, and we have sources about them.

Which is exactly the same way i feel about your entire argument. "The dialogue is written in English so it must really be English" There are countless examples of a work being written in one language when set in another country, place or time where the Language should be different. We don't have any direct sources about what language people spoke before the invention of writing, but if you see a film with prehistoric humans talking to each other In English you wouldn't assume they were actually speaking the language.

In short, you haven't given one proper reason why it shouldn't be English, or why "AOFJIOAFHA' should be a more likely candidate to be Common.

If you want to carry on believing that they speak English then fine. I don't have a problem with that. I find it extremely implausible. but I suppose it's technically possible. All I'm asking is that you stop pretending that they must speak English just because that's the language the books are written in. It's a terrible argument and I'm not sure why you continue to cling to it after all the counter examples i've given you.

That's BS and you know it. GRRM is in love with history, English history more than anything. The continent of Westeros, is basically Britain, and his story is known to be based on the War of the Roses. He has every reason to have Common be English.

Oh FFS. Tolkein was inspired by Germanic and Norse mythology when he wrote Lord of the Rings, but it doesn't mean that everyone in Middle Earth was speaking German or Norwegian. It's possible to be inspired by something without stealing every last detail. Yes there are parallels between Britain and westeros, but there are also a plethora of differences.

Even if Westeros was a direct take on the War of the Roses, the English spoken back then was Middle/Early Modern English. Not the current form of the language that (barring the odd antiquated turn of phrase) the books are clearly written in.

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I wasn't talking about which language he chose to write in (which is irrelevant to which language is spoken since the narrative isn't afflicted), I was talking about the language he chose to use for Common. A direct result of him choosing English is that the mechanics of the dialogue, the word puns that prove it is English and everything else are originally English, and not something else.

GRRM describes the general sound of the languages as he envisions them from his narrative (something you obviously missed / blatantly forgot about), as an English speaker. He does nothing of the sort for Common because he knows we all know how English sounds.

He could easily create 'a few words' for Common like he did for Dothraki and Valyrian too if it was a different language, but guess what, he did not! You may not have realised, but those words are there to remind us they're not speaking Common.

They sure try to replace the puns with something else. Even if you try to replace it, it sounds jarring and it is noticeable, especially to me. That's why people who for instance watch Blackadder with subtitles often don't get it. This is something I noticed when reading ADwD in English, that I had been missing out on all these great puns and quirks in the previous books. The English version does not have this problem, because these puns wouldn't even be in there if the 'original language' in which they are written doesn't allow it, because there would be no reason for them to exist in the first place.

"The dialogue is written in English so it must really be English"

If that is all you're able to get from what I'm writing, I'm beginning to understand how you're able to ignorantly keep clinging on to your so-called 'points.' Do you live in an area that was previously colonized by the English and have a grudge against them or something?

We don't have any direct sources about what language people spoke before the invention of writing, but if you see a film with prehistoric humans talking to each other In English you wouldn't assume they were actually speaking the language.

Because we know for a fact that they weren't. Again you're pretending Westeros is some kind of real place we have factual knowledge and a knowledge of history of and putting theories about it on the same level as theories about our dear planet Earth. We don't.

I'm not sure why you continue to cling to it after all the counter examples i've given you.

Probably because you haven't given any (proper) examples and aren't terribly convincing, that is to say, not convincing at all. You also keep ignoring things such as the fact of physical evidence on the show which I discussed in my previous post.

Right now I find it plausible to believe Common is English since there is nothing preventing it from being English and everything I can find points to GRRM not having considered it being another language such as, the absence of certain originally 'Common' words that the other languages do have, the unlikeliness of GRRM somehow keeping this a secret while he's more than willing to share details on his world, the absence of any narrating guide to the general sound of Common, Martin's remark that 'you can pronounce it however you like'. The only thing that can change my mind is GRRM saying otherwise, which I don't see happening in the near future because *drum roll*

The books provide us with names of places that are kept in their original language, like Vaes Dothrak and Vaes Tolorro. Names originate naturally for the most part, for example it's not hard to figure out why Riverrun is called Riverrun or King's Landing is called King's Landing. This would mean it was somehow necessary to translate all these places from Common to English, but it wasn't necessary for the Dothraki? Surely a few names could have easily been kept in their 'original state' if GRRM had any notion of an idea on how he wanted the 'original Common' to sound like. He did it for the Dothraki, after all.

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I wasn't talking about which language he chose to write in (which is irrelevant to which language is spoken since the narrative isn't afflicted), I was talking about the language he chose to use for Common. A direct result of him choosing English is that the mechanics of the dialogue, the word puns that prove it is English and everything else are originally English, and not something else.

GRRM describes the general sound of the languages as he envisions them from his narrative (something you obviously missed / blatantly forgot about), as an English speaker. He does nothing of the sort for Common because he knows we all know how English sounds.

He could easily create 'a few words' for Common like he did for Dothraki and Valyrian too if it was a different language, but guess what, he did not! You may not have realised, but those words are there to remind us they're not speaking Common.

They sure try to replace the puns with something else. Even if you try to replace it, it sounds jarring and it is noticeable, especially to me. That's why people who for instance watch Blackadder with subtitles often don't get it. This is something I noticed when reading ADwD in English, that I had been missing out on all these great puns and quirks in the previous books. The English version does not have this problem, because these puns wouldn't even be in there if the 'original language' in which they are written doesn't allow it, because there would be no reason for them.

It wouldn't make sense for him to leave some words of Common "untranslated". It's the native language of all the characters, so either it should all be "translated" or none of it should Tolkien did the same thing with Lord of the Rings. There's no element of the Westron language evident in the text, only the appendices at the end of the book hint at its existance. Tolkien was a linguist though, and he knew it would make no sense for his characters to "actually" be speaking modern English, so he explained that all elements of Westron had be translated into English. I don't see why we can't make the same assumption for ASOIAF. All your points about puns and Idioms apply just as much to Lord of the RIngs as they do to GRRMs work. They also apply just as equally to a lot of works written in modern English yet set in another country or another time, yet you seem to have no problem with them either. What makes the puns in ASOIAF so special?

If that is all you're able to get from what I'm writing, I'm beginning to understand how you're able to ignorantly keep clinging on to your so-called 'points.' Do you live in an area that was previously colonized by the English and have a grudge against them or something?

No. Don't let my atrocious spelling fool you. I am English. I don't bear a grudge against the English speaking world. I just think your arguments are incredibly flimsy.

Because we know for a fact that they weren't. Again you're pretending Westeros is some kind of real place we have factual knowledge and a history of. We don't.

Ok so we'll ignore all historical fiction. There's still plenty of fantasty works that use the same conventions. Lord of the Rings, Conan the barbarian Star Wars, Discworld, The Dragon age series. The list goes on and on. Are you trying to say that the Language spoken in all these amazing and fantastical Universes is actually standard English? Doesn't that take some of the magic away to assume that Bilbo Baggins, Ned Stark and Han solo talk just like any man on the street?

Probably because you haven't given any (proper) examples and aren't terribly convincing, that is to say, not convincing at all? You also keep ignoring things such as the fact of physical evidence on the show which I discussed in my previous post.

Your evidence amounts to "HBO haven't decided to broadcast the series in a made up fantasy language. so everyone must be speaking English except when we hear otherwise" You've completely ignored all the common sense reasons why they wouldn't do that, and why no other fantasy TV show does that and instead chosen to interpret it as proof of your hypothesis

Right now I find it plausible to believe Common is English since there is nothing preventing it from being English and everything I can find points to GRRM not having considered it being another language such as, the absence of certain originally 'Common' words that the other languages do have, GRRM somehow keeping this a secret while he's more than willing to share details on his world, the absence of any narrating guide to the general sound of Common, Martin's remark that 'you can pronounce it however you like'. The only thing that can change my mind is GRRM saying otherwise, which I don't see happening in the near future because *drum roll*

The books provide us with names of places that are kept in their original language, like Vaes Dothrak and Vaes Tolorro. Names originate naturally for the most part, for example it's not hard to figure out why Riverrun is called Riverrun or King's Landing is called King's Landing. This would mean it was somehow necessary to translate all these places from Common to English, but it wasn't necessary for the Dothraki? Surely a few names could have easily been kept in their 'original state' if GRRM had any notion of an idea on how he wanted the 'original Common' to sound like. He did it for the Dothraki, after all.

I'm not saying GRRM has got some Secret language worked out that he won't tell anyone. Tolkien didn't even begin to work out the "True" Westron language til long after the fact. Middle Earth has places like Bag End and the Brandywine river, but he explained that those are just translations of the actual names. GRRM hasn't bothered to point that out, because unlike Tolkein, he's not a linguist and I don't think he really cares. It's the story that's important to him not the language the people speak.

Maybe we should just follow in his example and agree to disagree.

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Good job ignoring 99 percent of my post. They made Valyrian for the show, they made Dothraki, why not bother to make a language for Common if GRRM absolutely didn't want it to be English, because it's not English? It's not English in the sense that it's not called English, but Common (since the English don't exist), but it 'is' English in terms of words. I don't know if you've read the translations or compared them to the original content, but they're inferior and miss a lot of the cleverness of George's writing, so your argument that 'the other possibilities are more likely' or the 'translations could be just as good' isn't really going anywhere either. Unless of course you want to say some random translator is better at it than George, or George has some secret hidden language in mind somewhere that he's using to translate from and still manages to do it while getting all the word jokes across. And that you want to disregard the messages written in English seen throughout the show, which show that the words are actually English.

Everything points to it being extremely likely it's English, and nothing points to it being not English except that 'oh, it's a fantasy world, so it could be, even if there's not a reason for it.'

Thanks, why would I want to correct the parts of your post that didnt need correction? :S

I'm not sure why you are trying to argue for the extremely statistically unlikely fact that the one language in Westeros, which in turn exists in another dimension, or world, would be so similar to modern day English. Noone with a half rational mind would claim that.

Now, what you fail to realize is, the translation has obviously not happened. Of course he doesnt know some secret language and of course I'm not suggesting that some "random" translator would make a better job than George, you are just babbling nonsense right now.

George wrote the books in english, they were created in English and every little sentence in there, is built upon the English language and how it is structured - it would not be able to be the exact same without it being in English - I agree.

But what is irrational is to take this into the other world, aka Westeros. What makes your argument that "everything points towards it being english" fail, is that while you are right, everything points toward the original story being in English (because it is, lol), that does not count for anything when you want to define the "real" common tongue of Westeros, which could be, and then again, statistically is (if you want to bring in the multiverse) anything.

Every point you make are all based on assumptions. You can in no way find any evidence that points directly towards the "ACTUAL" Westeros - if there is such a thing, so why make assumptions about it?

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It would make sense for him to lift at least a tip of the veil by giving a few words as example to give at least an indication it's not English, because this is sensitive information a proper writer (which GRRM is) would not withhold from his audience. The place names in Middle Earth and Westeros are therefore vastly different, as Tolkien based those place names on the language being spoken there. The names of the places in Mordor for example have a distinctive feel and sound to them that ties them together with the black language. The two are vastly different because in Lotr you do get something which hints at the existence of such a language, while in Westeros, you do not. Placing Lotr and ASOIAF on the same level is thus not only wrong, it is also oversimplifying.

Writers can make mistakes. Did you know that? A writer will have to keep in mind that if he's writing about Italy in English, he can't have a character say 'Luck, rhymes with duck!' if the actual Italian words do not rhyme, because if he's writing a 'translation', this sentence wouldn't even appear in the Italian version because the character wouldn't think to say it. This premise is not a problem for (a lot of) Fantasy writers, because as opposed to the real world there is no factual knowledge or evidence on whether or not they're even translating from an original source, outside of anything they decide for themselves. Their world, their rules. If they want to say the people in their world speak English, you cannot stop them, and if they do not say otherwise, there is no reason to assume anything else.

Therefore you bringing every other Fantasy world into play makes no sense. The decision lies with the authors and whatever the hell they want to do with it, not you. But yes, unless official sources contradict it, I would like to think that Han Solo sounds just as awesome in the non-existent 'original' version of the story, because why not? Unless George Lucas says otherwise, it is only right to assume so. He holds the power, not you. For me it takes away the magic if someone like you insists we cannot experience or create a story as it was originally meant to be. You are basically bringing 'probability' and 'science' into something that doesn't require it, just to ruin people's fun by claiming what they're reading is illegitimate.

Your evidence amounts to "HBO haven't decided to broadcast the series in a made up fantasy language. so everyone must be speaking English except when we hear otherwise" You've completely ignored all the common sense reasons why they wouldn't do that, and why no other fantasy TV show does that and instead chosen to interpret it as proof of your hypothesis

Wrong. You turning this:

You are also ignoring physical evidence. The letters shown in the show are written not only in our script, but also in English. How 'coincidental' is it that they use the same script we do? How easy would it have been for them to use cryptic signs instead when they are willing to create entire languages just for the show? Why would GRRM withhold such information from the show makers? Seems 'unlikely', yet now, the unlikeliness doesn't seem to bother you. If you can accept this (and you are forced to), it is a small step towards accepting that it is possible for a Fantasy writer to have English as the Common language of his people.

Into this:

Your evidence amounts to "HBO haven't decided to broadcast the series in a made up fantasy language. so everyone must be speaking English except when we hear otherwise" You've completely ignored all the common sense reasons why they wouldn't do that, and why no other fantasy TV show does that and instead chosen to interpret it as proof of your hypothesis.

simply proves once more that you're not even competent of holding an opinion on this matter, because you are unable to see the difference between physical signs of language and spoken language.

GRRM hasn't bothered to point that out, because unlike Tolkein, he's not a linguist and I don't think he really cares. It's the story that's important to him not the language the people speak.

... which is exactly why it wouldn't bother him in the slightest to just say 'you know, Common is English and let's leave it at that'.

It would have been extremely easy for GRRM to say 'wait guys, Common really isn't English, so when you're showing a letter, don't use our alphabet, and don't show English words.' Yet he didn't bother saying this, even though the showmakers wasted no effort in bringing other languages of Westeros to life, which is far more inconvenient than having a few letters here and there in a foreign script. If you see a dubbed version of the current show, these letters will still be in English. This means that if we were seeing an English dubbed version of original Common, the letters would also not have changed along.

I'm not sure why you are trying to argue for the extremely statistically unlikely fact that the one language in Westeros, which in turn exists in another dimension, or world, would be so similar to modern day English. Noone with a half rational mind would claim that.

1. Because GRRM has shown no reasons for me to think otherwise, and as I said before, he's the one who decides, not you.

2. I'm not sure why you are trying to argue for the extremely statistically unlikely fact that the one language in Westeros, which in turn exists in another dimension, or world, would be so similar to for instance the secret non-existent language of 'AIUHAFEUHFA'.

3. I have a perfectly rational and functional mind, so this disproves your last point as well.

4. If you bring up the existence of other dimension or worlds and actually believe in this, it becomes plausible to you that there exists a Westeros where Common is English, and that's the one we're seeing. The choice of the writer is what defines the probability here, it's not just a shot in the dark.

It could not be anything, because elements of the dialogue would differ if it was originally in a different language, and I'm talking about the world we're seeing (obviously), and again the belief in multiverses is once again a fabrication of your own mind, which is irrelevant to the way GRRM sees this, and your opinion on the matter is irrelevant because you're not the writer who gets to decide things.

Every point you make are all based on assumptions. You can in no way find any evidence that points directly towards the "ACTUAL" Westeros - if there is such a thing, so why make assumptions about it?

If you believe this, you'd have to say this is true for you as well, thus eradicating the (already non-existent) validity of your own point.

And guess what, the 'actual' Westeros does not exist. It's not floating around somewhere. Therefore it is limited to GRRM's creation, unless he creates an alternate version of it by doing as much as saying it exists.

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It could not be anything, because elements of the dialogue would differ if it was originally in a different language, and I'm talking about the world we're seeing (obviously), and again the belief in multiverses is once again a fabrication of your own mind, which is irrelevant to the way GRRM sees this, and your opinion on the matter is irrelevant because you're not the writer who gets to decide things.

If you believe this, you'd have to say this is true for you as well, thus eradicating the (already non-existent) validity of your own point.

And guess what, the 'actual' Westeros does not exist. It's not floating around somewhere. Therefore it is limited to GRRM's creation.

I'm not sure if you are actually even reading what I'm posting? If that's the case you obviously don't understand what I am saying.

The first assumption we made was that Westeros was "real" in another dimension, that's the inital assumption I made. We do assume that Westeros DOES exist in another dimension. So of course what I am saying is based on an assumption, the difference between me and you, is you go on making another assumption, that the common tongue in westeros is so similar to modern day English. See what I think you're doing wrong now?

I assume Westeros exists in another dimension; what leads from that is, due to the extreme variety of multiverses, the Language spoken would be very different from our English. The chances of a world in the multiverse speaking the exact same tongue as us is just, almost non-existent.

What you assume is; (if you understood the point I was making about the multiverse) Westeros is real. The common tongue is English.

But apparently you haven't followed me, so you never played the game "Westeros is real and exists in another dimension". Ironically it was you who brought up the multiverse theory first, not me. So I'm not sure if you are deviating from the route just because you know you have no grounds for your claims, or because you really just didn't follow what I have been saying all along ;)

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I'm not sure if you are actually even reading what I'm posting? If that's the case you obviously don't understand what I am saying.

That would be a result of you obviously not understanding what I'm saying, which is why you always have to resort to ignoring 99 percent of what I say.

So you believe Westeros actually exists... and you have no problem with believing this is plausible, but the language of Common being English is implausible! That says enough about you and your priorities, I think.

Bringing up multiverses is a result of you obviously assuming this is the case for the fictional Westeros. Unfortunately for you, no matter what you believe, it is not your call to make whether this counts for Westeros. It's Martin's, and he hasn't expressed his belief in this.

I've already covered this enough. It's not my fault if you're too stupid to understand it, and nor do I care. So draw your own conclusions, I'm not convinced. Unless Martin steps up and gives some insight.

Maybe you should try making a case on why the non-existent 'AFOIHAFO' is or should be Common. After all, you only get to pick one, so even from your point of view, the language you eventually end up with is going to be 'extremely improbable'. That could be amusing.

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That would be a result of you obviously not understanding what I'm saying, which is why you always have to resort to ignoring 99 percent of what I say.

So you believe Westeros actually exists... and you have no problem with believing this is plausible, but the language of Common being English is implausible! That says enough about you, I think.

I've already covered this enough. It's not my fault if you're too stupid to understand it, and nor do I care. So draw your own conclusions, I'm not convinced. Unless Martin steps up and gives some insight.

Uhrr, I have read everything you have posted to me, I havent ignored anything. Instead of trying to prove you wrong I am trying to give you insight in how I think... this is not a debate, or is it?

No, of course I don't believe Westeros actually exists, it was just food for thought - what if. And well, if you had any idea of what's probable and what isn't, you would understand why English is improbable, but you don't.

And why are you telling me to draw my conclusions? Rofl. You are the one sitting here arguing that it is English, when we have had no insight from Martin that it actually is. I am saying that we know too little to assert those kind of things, it could be English, but, if Westeros was real, it probably wouldn't be. Comprende?

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I assume Westeros exists in another dimension

No, of course I don't believe Westeros actually exists

Talking to you is like talking to Mit Romney.

if Westeros was real

But it's not.

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Talking to you is like talking to Mit Romney.

But it's not.

DUDE. I already told you a thousand times that it is a thought game, "What if Westeros was real". To play the game, you have to assume Westeros is real. Of course I know Westeros isn't real, but that doesn't hinder me from doing thought experiments where Westeros IS real.

Are you really going to cheap shot me like that? Taking things totally out of context and then saying i contradict myself?

That's quite enough talking to you. bye now.

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Sadly for you, Westeros being real is not a premise that goes into being able to think about it. If you had to think it was real first, you would also have to question the Great Houses' rise to power and state they are extremely improbable because so much could have gone differently in history and we don't know if we should believe what's happening to be able to be possible within that realm because obviously there is no such thing as a complete detailed history of Westeros all through the ages.

It's not even about the context, you need to be consistent in your arguments, reasoning, and the premises that go into them. You cannot assume Westeros is real and at the same time talk to a bunch of people who all know it isn't.

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I'm not sure if you are actually even reading what I'm posting? If that's the case you obviously don't understand what I am saying.

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure he/she isn't reading anything I'm posting either.

When I make points like :

An overly litteral translation that doesn't take into account differences in Puns, homonyms, Idioms etc. is a bad translation..... I read Asterix the Gaul translated into English from the original French. The original French series is very heavy on Puns that don't work in English....If the translaters of Asterix had been worse at their jobs. Then a lot of the puns wouldn't have made sense. They'd have just been artifacts of the original French.

And in return I get back:

You clearly know nothing about language, writing, or translation and should be declared incompetent to even have an opinion on these matters. Some things are impossible to translate correctly, word puns being the best example.

It's clear he/she isn't really paying any attention and is just trying to wind people up. I'd stop posting, but I'm a glutton for punishment ;)

Sadly for you, Westeros being real is not a premise that goes into being able to think about it. If you had to think it was real first, you would also have to question the Great Houses' rise to power and state they are extremely improbable because so much could have gone differently in history and we don't know if we should believe what's happening to be able to be possible within that realm because obviously there is no such thing as a complete detailed history of Westeros all through the ages.

It's not even about the context, you need to be consistent in your arguments, reasoning, and the premises that go into them. You cannot assume Westeros is real and at the same time talk to a bunch of people who all know it isn't.

Look, there's a whole meta-reality to the series that you're just not getting. Stuff that GRRM has never written about but we can infer exists using a little bit of logic.

Simple question. How many grandparents did Hot-pie have? Answer: Unless his family was inbreeding like targaryens it's gotta be four. GRRM never mentions Hot-pies grandparents. They don't appear anywhere in the text. They're not listed in any of the appendices, but they must have existed or else how could Hot-pie exist? That's what I mean by meta-reality. Things that must exist in the world of the series that we never hear about and have no way of knowing the details of.The Westerosi language falls into this area of meta-reality. We're not informed directly what it is, but we can assume it exists because people are talking to each other.

Now, the books are written in English, but that's the only language they could be written in for an English speaking reader to understand it. It's not just the common tongue dialogue that's in English, almost everything is. The title, the appendices, the narration, the vast majority of dialogue in Dothraki, High and low Valeryian etc. For that reason It's safe to assume that the use of English is a practical concern and not an artistic choice. Similarly with spoken language and written signs on the show. They want the audience to be able to understand what's happening so the common tongue is depicted as English. It's the simplest solution.

Now the language they're speaking might still be English, but the probability of it's not the 50/50 choice between English and "AOFJIOAFHA'' you believe it to be. There is esentially one form of English that's valid for your purposes, the exact English the books are written in, however there are countless possible languages out there "AOFJIOAFHA'' sure but also "\gsfwf" "Grttoo" "tobay" and "드라인555gtfo" etc. The possible combinations of syllables, syntax, words and meanings is almost endless, and there are plenty of noises and different intonations that the human voice is capable of creating that don't even exist as sounds in the English language.

The chances of it being English by chance is 1 in trillions of trillions. The chances of it being 'AOFJIOAFHA' are also 1 in trillions of trillions, but no one other than you is arguing that it is 'AOFJIOAFHA'. We;re saying It could be almost anything. Now If GRRM states outright that it is English, then of course I'll believe him, but until that day I'll continue to believe that the odds are it isn't.

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Look, there's a whole meta-reality to the series that you're just not getting. Stuff that GRRM has never written about but we can infer exists using a little bit of logic.

Simple question. How many grandparents did Hot-pie have? Answer: Unless his family was inbreeding like targaryens it's gotta be four. GRRM never mentions Hot-pies grandparents. They don't appear anywhere in the text. They're not listed in any of the appendices, but they must have existed or else how could Hot-pie exist? That's what I mean by meta-reality. Things that must exist in the world of the series that we never hear about and have no way of knowing the details of.The Westerosi language falls into this area of meta-reality. We're not informed directly what it is, but we can assume it exists because people are talking to each other.

Now, the books are written in English, but that's the only language they could be written in for an English speaking reader to understand it. It's not just the common tongue dialogue that's in English, almost everything is. The title, the appendices, the narration, the vast majority of dialogue in Dothraki, High and low Valeryian etc. For that reason It's safe to assume that the use of English is a practical concern and not an artistic choice. Similarly with spoken language and written signs on the show. They want the audience to be able to understand what's happening so the common tongue is depicted as English. It's the simplest solution.

Now the language they're speaking might still be English, but the probability of it's not the 50/50 choice between English and "AOFJIOAFHA'' you believe it to be. There is esentially one form of English that's valid for your purposes, the exact English the books are written in, however there are countless possible languages out there "AOFJIOAFHA'' sure but also "\gsfwf" "Grttoo" "tobay" and "드라인555gtfo" etc. The possible combinations of syllables, syntax, words and meanings is almost endless, and there are plenty of noises and different intonations that the human voice is capable of creating that don't even exist as sounds in the English language.

The chances of it being English by chance is 1 in trillions of trillions. The chances of it being 'AOFJIOAFHA' are also 1 in trillions of trillions, but no one other than you is arguing that it is 'AOFJIOAFHA'. We;re saying It could be almost anything. Now If GRRM states outright that it is English, then of course I'll believe him, but until that day I'll continue to believe that the odds are it isn't.

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I disagree with you and I have better arguments than you do, so I must be trolling. Very mature, kids.

The main problem you guys have, is that you are trying to understand Westeros through your own world view and treating it as if it were subject to the same 'rules' of our world, which it is absolutely not.

You're still missing the point that these puns wouldn't exist in the first place and wouldn't work this well in English if we were seeing a translation. The English language is the reason these puns exist in the first place, because they are derived from certain unique aspects of the English language.

The letters depicted in the show are not informative or important enough that it would be a huge bother if they're not written in a) our script and b ) English, so it is not a matter of convenience (creating and learning Dothraki and Valyrian is far more unconvenient), it is a matter of GRRM not thinking to tell the show creators they should show the letters to be something different. He didn't tell anyone they couldn't show English words, thus he doesn't have the idea in his mind that they shouldn't be English words. If this idea doesn't exist in his mind, it doesn't exist.

There are no odds, and there is no meta-reality, because a meta-reality of Westeros is not floating around somewhere, it is limited to how GRRM created it. For all we know GRRM could decide Hot Pie doesn't have grandparents, but simply appeared out of a hole in the sky. He has that freedom. You may have trouble finding it acceptable, but it wouldn't make it any less true if he says it is. Artificial Fantasy worlds are not subject to the same rules of our Earth (or they wouldn't exist in the first place).

You need to pick 1 language in the end, so you'd have to complain if the non-existent 'AOUHFA' turns out to be Common, too, because of the many possibilities you believe in. Thus your argument against it being English holds no ground. As I already said, even if it is chosen as a matter of convenience, convenience and choice wipes away the need for 'probability', since it's not a random choice, but a decision by the author, who is more important in this context than you and your 'logic.' If every language is just as 'probable' or 'improbable', it is only probable the author would choose it to be his native language because he has 0 reason to choose it to be something else that would be 'just as improbable.'

You thinking of 'probability' and nothing else is also ignoring all the indications I've already summed up that it is most likely English and not something else (for which exist no indications as opposed to say Lotr). You have 0 indications that it's something else, yet you stubbornly try to cling on to the belief that it must be something else, even though this would be a pointless choice, (not a random event that somehow happens outside of Martin's control!) from every perspective, even the author's.

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There are no odds, and there is no meta-reality, because a meta-reality of Westeros is not floating around somewhere, it is limited to how GRRM created it. For all we know GRRM could decide Hot Pie doesn't have grandparents, but simply appeared out of a hole in the sky. He has that freedom. You may have trouble finding it acceptable, but it wouldn't make it any less true if he says it is. Artificial Fantasy worlds are not subject to the same rules of our Earth (or they wouldn't exist in the first place).

If you truly believe this, then there's no point me answering any of your other arguments, because we're never going to agree. Our views on fiction are completely at odds.

I don't want to see you posting in other threads about what Stanis is thinking or what goes on In Robb's head, because by your logic unless we see a character's point of view, they don't have thoughts. They're just Martin's literary puppets saying whatever words he puts into their mouths.

If you want to veiw the series on that level then knock yourself out. I'm really not sure what enjoyment you'd get out of it though with such a huge amount of detachment from the world and the characters.

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Character's motivations are an entirely different thing from world-encompassing, non-subjective facts. Characters themselves can argue about other character's motivations, they can't argue about the language they're speaking. That said, I do believe the only things that are 100 percent facts are the things that come directly from Martin. If Martin gives insight into Stannis revealing he is a bloodthirsty maniac, I may be disappointed and find it unlikely based on the information he's given me before that, but there'd be no point in arguing with it. And you will likely see me posting in those topics, so you'd better brace yourself.

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I don't see how you can have it both ways. If there's no meta-reality, then how can characters have thoughts that aren't directly shown to us in the text? In what hypothetical plane of existance can these thought processes occur? Martin hasn't mapped out every consious thought that Robb or Stannis have had, so does that mean they don't exist as sentient entities within the world of the story? It's possible to view the text on that level, where characters don't exist as fully formed beings but rather as Martin's unthinking agents to drive on the plot, but I don't see how anyone could read the books on that level and still enjoy it.

To fully apreciate the series I feel you need to get sucked into the world Martin has created, and a part of that is accepting that there is more to the world and the characrers than we get to view directly. That places like Asshai and Highgarden exist as more than just names on a map even if we never get to visit them. That minor character's like Yoren or Jalabhar Xho have lived whole lives that we never got to see. That characters like Stannis, Walder Frey and Roose Bolton are thinking, feeling people and not just tools to move the plot in the direction Martin wants it to go. There needs to be some sort of meta-reality that goes beyond what's in the text to make this all possible.

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That is a different discussion, but suffice it to say that certain facts about the world we are given (or not given) require a different approach than others. For instance the statement 'Storm's End is a castle', 'The Lannisters must have risen to power by bribing everyone' vs. 'Robb wanted to take the Iron Throne.' Those are wholly different, incomparable statements.

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Like most worlds in fantasy and science fiction genre the main language is referred to as Common. It is usually the same language used for narration purposes and the same language used to translate the story to the reader. If you are reading the book in Spanish, then Spanish would be the "Common" language. Since this book was written in English, and most people read the book in English, then for our purposes English is "Common."

Exactly.

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