House Tyrell and House Martell Rivalry

[Ser Baldrick]

I don't have specific examples, but I believe it's alluded to several times that the Tyrells and Martells have a healthy rivalry/feud/mutual dislike of one another. I think it is said at one point that this is related to Dorne and the Reach having a long history of war between the regions. However, it doesn't seem like this ever really comes into play in the Ice and Fire story line. Both houses stayed loyal to the crown during Robert's Rebellion and are now allies (at least "officially") of the Lannisters. I don't remember any of the main players trying to use this rivalry to their advantage by playing these families against each other.

It seems kind of odd to set them up as rival houses and then not do anything with it. Do you think there will be some kind of pay-off eventually?

[otherbeef]

i also think the current generation's dislike is overblown. Oberyn himself says so. nonetheless in KL Tyrion and Cersei do everything they can to keep the two parties as far away from each other as possible, and there was that one incident where i believe a Tyrell man at arms stabbed a Dornishmen.

[Groat]

Actually, Tyrion used the rivalry to his advantage during Clash. When he learns that Highgarden is backing Renly, Tyrion sends the letter to Doran offering an alliance, his logic being that while Dorne may have a grudge against the Lannisters for Elia and the babes, it's nothing compared to the animosity between Dorne and the Reach.

Also, Mace has a strong loathing for the Martells ever since his eldest son became crippled after jousting against the Red Viper.

[N/A]

Here are some stuff I'd like to throw in

The dornish killed lord tyrell when the young dragon appointed him as governor of dorne following his conquest

Also there is the incident between willas and oberyn in that tourney

Edit: I noticed that you're new, so welcome to the forums and I hope you have as much fun here as I do

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

I've wondered if the feud is exaggerated. The Blackwood vs. Bracken feud seems to have a lot more vitriol and more consequences in the story. IIRC the Blackwoods were offended by how quickly the Brackens bent the knee after the RW and that was a big part of their continued resistance.

The Tyrells vs Martells has amounted to nothing yet. It might pay off later if Aegon and the Martells join forces and start invading or pillaging the Reach. Another possibility is that the two houses have made a secret truce and are working together to oppose the Lannisters. We have no Tyrell POV so we can't be sure about their agenda. We don't have a Doran POV, if he made a truce with the Tyrells and didn't tell his kids, we'd never know. That's just pure speculation on my part though.

[The Duke]

I really want to meet Willas in a POV to see if the viper was telling the truth in regards to them now being friendly correspondents. The rest of the Tyrell's seem pretty pissed about what happened to Willas.

[V Targaryen]

I think it's mostly shown through snarky comments. I think the worst is when Mace Tyrell is told the Dornish are arriving at King's Landing, he says that they had better be arriving via boat because he did not give them permission to go through the Reach. There's also the snarky comments made by Oberyn, the Queen of Thorns, and Mace about each other's house/each other, but most of the anger vented by the Tyrells seems to be placed towards Oberyn, not Dorne or the Martells.

If I remember correctly, Mace even says he'd allow Doran through the Reach. Unlike the Blackwoods/Brackens, whcih does play off as incredibly serious, the Martell/Dorne vs Tyrells/Reach feud seems to be more like "Well, we've hated each other for years, and Prince Oberyn crippled the Tyrell heir, so we'll continue to remain dicks towards each other."

[Steinnis]

It does seem like an old feud, that may be a bit exaggerated. In the text it implies that the Reach and Dorne have been fighting back and forth over the years, over land, mainly the Dornish Marches. IIRC.

Plus I think one of the old Kings, tried to put a Tyrell as an overlord to Dorne at one stage, during the conquest of Dorne. That didn't turn out too well, as I recall Oberyn's story that the Tyrell pulled on a sash while abed and a hundred scorpions landed on him. That's definitely not good for future relations.

More recently the animosity seems to stem from Oberyn crippling Willas in a joust. Given Oberyn's perspective on it he struck Willas cleanly and his foot got caught in a stirrup. Not exactly Oberyn's fault, but with the history of their feud it's easy to see why the Tyrell's would look for someone to blame especially a Dornishman. Willas was green as his surcoat and should never have entered to hear Oberyn tell it, though I find it interesting that they remained in touch. (If that can be believed)

Probably another petty rivalry that was blew out of proportion. I think Mace and Doran are on good terms atleast.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Its a Red herring, where they are actually working together

[Free Northman]

It's setting the scene for Dorne backing Aegon and invading the Reach in the next book.

[A Man Has Said]

I should think that a lot of it would go back to the nearly 200 years after the conquest that Dorne hadn't yet bent the knee to the Targaryens.

In "The Sworn Sword" it's shown how much houses that border depend on 'the King's justice' to mediate and hopefully resolve border disputes, issues of water usage and so forth.

Dorne and The Reach wouldn't have been able to rely on that mediation, so almost every dispute along their common border would have led to bloodshed (the resolution of last resort.)

You don't really have to get into narrative specifics to imagine a long-festering resentment between the Martells and Tyrells.

[WingedMan]

I believe there's some feud left but it could be exaggerated a bit. Perhaps from Tyrells, only Mace holds some grudge. Partly because it seems to be really important for Mace to have a son who's a tournament hero (Loras is mentioned as his favorite). We had some snarky comments from QoT but she might be acting too, she's definitely capable of keeping up appearances if she wishes. It seems to me that the younger Tyrells and pretty much all Martells would be able to get along.

If Doran still resents Tyrells, then he might have been in contact with certain other Reach houses. I don't think all Reach houses will fight at the same side in coming conflicts.

It'll be interesting to see how this one plays out.

[Longspear Ryk]

Well i had nice theory on how willa is kinda like the new doran and if margery gets raped and killed like elia then loras could probably turn into the new oberyon type character?

[Ser Luke.]

Its a Red herring, where they are actually working together

Yeah no :lol:

[Silent_Hero]

It's not just those houses, the Stormlands are also central to the conflict, though in recent times things have mellowed until Oberyn crippled Willas things have heated up again.

[PrimeRhaegar]

it mace and his mom that blow it out of proportion since the children don't really care. Hell arianne wanted to marry willas b4 she knew of her father's plan and despite him being cripple.

[grand old duke of stark]

They are no Hatfields and McCoys. This is a long-simmering feud that every so often breaks into a bit of a boil. One might characterise it as a typical house rivalry. It's possible that the imminent civil war might bring out the worst in their relationship, at least until the Others come south and everyone unites against them. For the present, the Tyrs and the Marts both say "What the 'ell!" :stillsick:

[Aderyn the Sly]

There has been rivialry between the two since before the Targaryen's arrived mostly over boarders and raiding, and was furthered by Aegon naming the Tyrells Warden of the South who frequently warred with the Dornish who remained independant. And I have to say I love the story of the Lord Tyrell who went to Dorne after it was 'conquored'-After the initial victory, Daeron appointed Lord Tyrell as governor of Dorne. Lord Tyrell liked Dornish women and one night he pulled the rope that would signal for a wench to come to his bed, and a hundred scorpions fell from the canopy instead. His death sparked new revolts, and the conquest was undone in a fortnight".

Not to mention that Oberyn crippled Mace Tyrell's oldest son.

[joluoto]

The fact that they hate each other doesn't mean they won't back the same king.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

The fact that they hate each other doesn't mean they won't back the same king.

They've done it before, after all.

I have long suspected the Brain Trusts of the respective families are at least sharing notes if not actually working together, while the rank and file are intentionally left out of the loop to better play their mutually antagonistic roles. Doran NOT telling members of his family what his plans are and things they need to know is rather consistent with how he's been playing the game, isn't it?

I'm not entirely sure they are covertly working together -- there's some stuff that doesn't add up -- but I would not be particularly surprised if it turns out the Tyrells and Martells are coordinating efforts to restore the Targaryen line they supported back during the rebellion.

The War Crimes of House Lannister personally visited upon House Martell during that rebellion certainly leads me to believe that, at least, The Martells look at the current Tyrell generation as The Lesser Of Two Evils by far.

Remember, when that fight breaks out at Joffrey's ill-fated wedding, it's the grunts who fight. Tyrell and Martell footmen. It's not Oberyn drawing on Mace and and asking if Mace still thinks that "how many Dornishmen does it take to shoe a horse?" joke is still funny when he's got a sword at his neck. And the fight makes for a very convenient distraction. Mutually convenient, for those of us who suspect Oberyn attempted to poison Tywin.

The content of the Willas/Oberyn letters is one of my pet mysteries about this series. I really want to know what they were writing to each other about, and by my mere posting in this particular thread you can probably guess what I think they were talking about. Simple Chit-Chat About The Weather doesn't seem letter worthy. :)

We'll see what The Sand Snakes know (and what they don't know) and how they really feel (vs. how they act) when they get to King's Landing to represent the House.