Joramun/Dragonbinder

[AcornPaste]

I had this idea this morning and I haven't been able to find anyone else explain it this way:

Euron's Dragonbinder is the Horn of Winter/Joramun.

It allows the owner to control dragons. I know it is a source of disagreement, but I believe that dragonfire could melt through The Wall (not the entire thing at once, mind you). People like to say the horn that Sam has is likely the Horn of Winter; I disagree because it was found in a cache of dragonglass weapons used to fight the others. The horn that brings down The Wall would not be kept with things to fight the Others IMO. The point of bringing down The Wall is to let The Others through.

I don't think that blowing the horn will immediately result in The Wall falling, though sounding Dragonbinder could be a step towards destroying part of The Wall. Basically, I don't think that The Horn of Winter is an all-powerful Wall Destroyer like the wildlings had hoped.

So this leads to a few questions...

What horn does Sam have? I think it could just be a Night's Watch ranger's horn, used to sound for wildlings/danger, nothing special, though Sam keeps it to remind himself of his duties.

Why would Euron want The Wall to come down? It's unlikely Euron/anyone in possession of the horn realizes its potential to eventually affect The Wall. Plus, it's not a given that Euron will keep the horn forever.

Why was the horn found in Valyria and not in the North like Mance reasonably expected? Euron could have easily lied about where he found the horn. It's unlikely he actually sailed to Valyria itself and survived. He may have picked up the horn much further north during his voyage, or in an effort to hide the horn thousands of years ago, it was sent to the other end of the world.

Feel free to tear me apart.

[Tourniquet]

Well the person with the dragonclass cache might have been trying to hid/hold onto the horn so the Others didn't get it. Not that he would use it himself, but having it in his possession is better than the alternative.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I've come across that theory before, and I agree that it sounds intriguing. However, a relatively strong counter seems to be:

Why would the horn of Joramun be covered in Valyrian glyphs? (Not, e.g., First Men runes.)

[AcornPaste]

Well the person with the dragonclass cache might have been trying to hid/hold onto the horn so the Others didn't get it. Not that he would use it himself, but having it in his possession is better than the alternative.

Then why not just destroy the horn then and there instead of holding onto it? Yes, it's broken, but I'd think that if your sole purpose is to preserve and defend The Wall and Realm, if you knew you had an item like that, you'd smash it into a thousand pieces, then burn them, then throw the ashes in a river.

Not that we know who buried it...

Why would the horn of Joramun be covered in Valyrian glyphs? (Not, e.g., First Men runes.)

That's strong, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that it did make it to Valyria after being sent south, and the Valyrians inscribed their own language onto it.

It just seems to me that something that is the downfall of ice should naturally be aligned with fire.

[Crowford]

It just sounds pretty contrived. First of all, there are Valyrian glyphs on the horn. So that alone should dispense of the idea that it is the Horn of Joramun.

Then there apparently have been several of those horns in Valyria, and both Euron and Moqorro somewhat indepently of each other identify it as being able to control dragons. Why would a horn hailing from Westeros long before the invasion (and if I remember correctly supposedly even before the Valyrians even had dragons) be able to do that?

You might be right in the sense that dragons could bring down the wall, but that this is the purpose of the Horn of Joramun is indredibly unlikely.

[AcornPaste]

It just sounds pretty contrived. First of all, there are Valyrian glyphs on the horn. So that alone should dispense of the idea that it is the Horn of Joramun.

Then there apparently have been several of those horns in Valyria, and both Euron and Moqorro somewhat indepently of each other identify it as being able to control dragons. Why would a horn hailing from Westeros long before the invasion (and if I remember correctly supposedly even before the Valyrians even had dragons) be able to do that?

You might be right in the sense that dragons could bring down the wall, but that this is the purpose of the Horn of Joramun is indredibly unlikely.

When it comes down to it, the Horn of Joramun is "legendary" and "mythical," like all Age of Heroes/First Men stories. The original tale of the Horn of Winter could be interpreted as a prophecy for any horn/item capable of bringing The Wall down. It wouldn't necessarily have had to existed in the North at all under this perspective (which admittedly is not the original point I'm arguing, it just speaks to the purpose of the horn). Euron and Moqorro know it can control dragons, they don't have to know of its entire history.

[JesusFTW]

How is it known that the horn of winter would bring down the wall if it's never been used? Slightly off topic but curious.

[Crowford]

When it comes down to it, the Horn of Joramun is "legendary" and "mythical," like all Age of Heroes/First Men stories. The original tale of the Horn of Winter could be interpreted as a prophecy for any horn/item capable of bringing The Wall down. It wouldn't necessarily have had to existed in the North at all under this perspective (which admittedly is not the original point I'm arguing, it just speaks to the purpose of the horn). Euron and Moqorro know it can control dragons, they don't have to know of its entire history.

That might actually be true. In that case there would be no Horn of Joramun or Horn of Winter. It's just a prophecy that one day the Wall will be brought down by a horn, and that's because someone will use a dragon bound by a Valyrian horn to do the deed. It's not a special property of the horn, it's just how it will be used.

However, in that case I think your point for the thread is moot. Euron probably doesn't want to bring the wall down, because he doesn't think that the horn is in any way connected to it. And the horn was found in Valyria, because it was the Valyrians who had horns like these, it was never in Westeros until Euron brought it there.

[AcornPaste]

That might actually be true. In that case there would be no Horn of Joramun or Horn of Winter. It's just a prophecy that one day the Wall will be brought down by a horn, and that's because someone will use a dragon bound by a Valyrian horn to do the deed. It's not a special property of the horn, it's just how it will be used.

However, in that case I think your point for the thread is moot. Euron probably doesn't want to bring the wall down, because he doesn't think that the horn is in any way connected to it. And the horn was found in Valyria, because it was the Valyrians who had horns like these, it was never in Westeros until Euron brought it there.

Still, where did the legend/prophecy come from? Maybe Joramun DID have a horn, and he/COTF had a vision/prophecy about a horn and sent it away because it was his and he wanted the Wall to fall.

How is it known that the horn of winter would bring down the wall if it's never been used? Slightly off topic but curious.

This could be answered with the "prophecy" theory. To my memory, the Wall has never fallen/been rebuilt before, so "It is known" is basically the best explanation, rooted in thousands of years of retelling of the story/prophecy/vision.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Dragonbinder and the horn at the wall are 2 different horns.

[Dany Girl]

I don't see how Jormamun's horn could have anything to do with dragons because the wall is 8000 years old and dragons were not in Westeros 8000 years ago. I believe the first dragons to live I Westeros were Aegon's dragons. So why would you have a horn to control something that you don't have to worry about? I could see his horn controlling mammoths or ice spiders, unicorns or even krackens, but not dragons.

Dragons lived in valyeria, and maybe asshai, but don't seem to have been anywhere else. In fact, dragons seem to have survived poorly in Westeros in general. Within 200 years of transporting them to Westeros they died out. This could be because of neglect on the Targaryen's part, but I don't think Westeros was really habitable for dragons.

[AcornPaste]

I don't see how Jormamun's horn could have anything to do with dragons because the wall is 8000 years old and dragons were not in Westeros 8000 years ago. I believe the first dragons to live I Westeros were Aegon's dragons. So why would you have a horn to control something that you don't have to worry about? I could see his horn controlling mammoths or ice spiders, unicorns or even krackens, but not dragons.

Dragons lived in valyeria, and maybe asshai, but don't seem to have been anywhere else. In fact, dragons seem to have survived poorly in Westeros in general. Within 200 years of transporting them to Westeros they died out. This could be because of neglect on the Targaryen's part, but I don't think Westeros was really habitable for dragons.

Basically, the horn is related to the downfall of The Wall. If dragons can be considered a threat to The Wall's integrity, why not? It wasn't "created to control dragons" explicitly: it was made to be the cause of a later effect. The means of that effect coming to fruition is left to fate/circumstances.

[Dany Girl]

Basically, the horn is related to the downfall of The Wall. If dragons can be considered a threat to The Wall's integrity, why not? It wasn't "created to control dragons" explicitly: it was made to be the cause of a later effect. The means of that effect coming to fruition is left to fate/circumstances.

but I think dragon horns are designed specifically for that purpose. There's a LOT of spells ingrained in them. I can't see how Joramun made a horn that accidentally controls dragons. Sorry, just can't see that happening.

[Undead Ned With No Head]

Are we 100% sure there were no dragons ever in Westerosi history before the targs?

[Jon of the Dead]

Off topic, but this might be relevant.

So far we know of 3 horns: the horn of Joramun, the dragon horn, and the horn that is said to summon krakens.

Check out the symbol of Odin, who is believed to be represented by Aerys, Bloodraven or the Great Other, depending on the theory (I personally lean towards Bloodraven):

http://symboldictionary.net/?p=714

Could it mean something or is it just a coincidence?

[Dany Girl]

Are we 100% sure there were no dragons ever in Westerosi history before the targs?

-We know that they're native to Essos.

-we know they died out within 200 years of coming to Westeros

-the only mention we've had of a dragon outside of the Targ dragons is an ice dragon, which doesn't really seem real. Either just a story, or it was a Targ dragon.

I don't think dragons can live naturally in Westeros. I think they're brand of magic belongs in Essos. Basically as soon as they were transported to Westeros they stopped growing as big, even before the dragon pit was built. If dragons had been in Westeros before the Targs I think we would know about it. I don't think castles would have been as indefensible against dragons as they were, especially places like Winterfell and Storm's End which are both over 8000 years old.

I don't believe dragons are connected to the wall at all. I also don't think they'll be as instrumental in the fight with the Others as a lot of people think they will be. First, the Others were defeated by the First Men the first time around, therefore First Men blood will be needed. Second, dragons are reptiles and reptiles don't handle cold well. Even though they're fire made flesh, I don't see them surviving very long up north.

[Aetta]

Off topic, but this might be relevant.

So far we know of 3 horns: the horn of Joramun, the dragon horn, and the horn that is said to summon krakens.

Check out the symbol of Odin, who is believed to be represented by Aerys, Bloodraven or the Great Other, depending on the theory (I personally lean towards Bloodraven):

http://symboldictionary.net/?p=714

Could it mean something or is it just a coincidence?

I was ashamed, because I overuse it on this forum, to bring up my Norse analogy, but since you've opened the door...

Dont ya find it strange that Joramun is similar to Jormungandr? I always equate the Norse sea serpent with Danaerys, a Valyrian for sure.

Then, there are the Biblical trumpets (actually horns) of the Revelation of John. Wiki and it see all of the similar references to fire, falling stars,swollen and decrepit seas, and saviors. Not a direct pull from either source, I don't think, but here in the real world there are many similarities amongst many folklore of man, giving GRRM a wide range to tell his own version.

However, I don't think the Horn of Joramun brings down the Wall on its own. I think there has to be magics involved. Just like the magic required for Dany to birth dragons. The Horn may just be an announcement, or as it has been posited here, maybe can destroy a portion (a third, anyone?) of the Wall.

I