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I prefer summer

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  1. I prefer summer

    Can we officially call Rhaegar a jerk now?

    Henry didn't annul his marriage to Anne Boleyn - he accused her of treason (adultery) and beheaded her. Mary was re-legitimized, and Elizabeth made a bastard, by the return of the country to the Roman Catholic Church. And the return again to the Church of England after Mary's death paved the way for Elizabeth to be considered legitimate, because the end of Henry's marriage to Anne's mother, Catherine of Aragon, was recognized.
  2. I prefer summer

    Can we officially call Rhaegar a jerk now?

    Maybe you could both edit your posts...
  3. I prefer summer

    Do the direwolves foreshadow how each Stark dies?

    So would that be "Death by 21 Jump Street?"
  4. I prefer summer

    The burning of the Tarlys - discussion

    She will now have to demonstrate that humane treatment to the survivors, as she would have had to do if she had beheaded those who refused to bend the knee. I still believe that burning two men as an example was more effective, and maybe even more humane, than beheading all those who remained standing. Beheadings might have made the holdouts more resolute - they have likely all seen beheadings before. But no one stayed standing after the Tarleys burned.
  5. I prefer summer

    Sansa and Aria are Playing Littlefinger (Not the Other Way Around)

    What a great discussion! I especially appreciate the care with which the originator, and several of the posters, have constructed and supported their arguments. I posted a similar theory/hope in the discussion thread on Sansa/Arya's interaction, with nowhere near the skill or thought shown by you guys. Sadly, that other thread devolved into a cat fight between lovers and haters of the two sisters, respectively. I agree that Sansa will demonstrate that she has learned from not just LF, but from Cersei, Ramsay, and maybe even Tyrion, how to play the game, beyond just the diplomacy she is already practicing. I also agree that Arya, hothead though she may be, is too skilled to have been so clumsy in dealing with LF. I LOVE your whole "ironic deaths" theory. Some of your examples do, indeed show irony, like Tywyn; I would say others are more parallelism. But overall, there is a poetic justice vibe. There is evidence both ways with Arya. Her fanatical drive for revenge has made her pretty erratic, and therefore vulnerable to manipulation. And it isn't uncommon to revert back to childhood roles when returning to a childhood home and interacting with family; just seeing Sansa in their parents' bedroom triggered some pretty strong resentments. And Arya's training has been almost the diametric opposite of Sansa's - it didn't include much interpersonal communications skill. But she has been taught not to take things at face (pun semi-intended) value, so I don't think she'd fall that hard for LF's bullshit. I didn't see any evidence of Royce plotting with LF. He is speaking with LF quite openly in the courtyard. LF may be putting on a show for Arya, but there is nothing in Royce's body language that suggests anything nefarious on his part. Frankly, I'm not sure he's clever enough, anyway. Exactly. I don't remember any indication that Royce trusted LF. I do remember him being taught that his life would be in grave danger if LF gave Robyn the word. Royce mistrusts, fears and hates LF, all with good reason. The story of Lysa's death implicates Sansa as well. I don't know Westerosi law, but in our world, she's an accessory after the fact. It could make her look like she conspired with LF to take over the Vale, or at least to rule in proxy by manipulating Robyn. And even in the Lords of the Vale accepted her excuse that she was afraid for her own safety, Robyn would not likely be so understanding about the loss of his beloved mother and literal meal ticket. At the very least, the story would undermine any trust Sansa has establish with the Vale. Very interesting and thoughtful analysis. I don't agree with all of it, but I think a lot has merit. The writers have definitely hit us over the head with Sansa not trusting LF. Arya has good reason to think he is a snake, given the conversation she witnesses between him and Tywyn. Bran, of course knows everything, and hinted at his knowledge to LF with the "Chaos Is a ladder" comment, but I think he is much too wrapped up with the NK and the WW right now to be a co-conspirator with his sisters. He will likely play a role, but not until it is absolutely necessary. Your theory about the training scene with Brienne is very intriguing, and it finally gives the scene a purpose. I particularly like the comment on the "don't go where your enemy leads you" line, although Arya says "And don't fight someone like her in the first place." One could take that to mean that she shouldn't be taking LF on at his own game, but maybe it means that her fight isn't with the knights and the soldiers, but with the schemers and plotters? (OK, I'm over-thinking, but it's fun!) I'm willing to buy all of it except your take on Sansa's and LF's reactions. I think Sansa looks alarmed throughout the scene. She might have initially been worried about Arya's safety, but I think her concern changes to worry about what Arya has become. The training hammers home that Arya's list was no joke. You are dead on about how cartoonish the episode makes Arya look, which is why I think she, at least is playing LF. I'm not sure Sansa is in on it yet, but she will be. Mind you, it is possible that her reactions to the training are also for LF's benefit. Not sure... IDK what you mean about "keying" his room, but as someone suggested above, she could have used a face and posed as a servant. I think she wanted him to see her, just as he wanted her to see him. Not sure how much Robyn likes Sansa. Remember that whole "you kicked in my sand castle!" scene? And he definitely won't appreciate the role she played in Lysa's death. But he does love "Uncle Peter." LF has no claim on anything beyond his relationship with Robyn. If Robyn ever turns on him, he is a dead man. He married into power once before, and he wants todo it a second time, with Sansa. She isn't his end game - beyond lust and that icky "you remind me of your mother" stuff, Sansa is merely his best chance at what he really wants - the Iron Throne. For such a clever man, he has overplayed his hand and made a lot of enemies. But I suspect he still has a few tricks up his sleeve. i agree that I wish they would drop the bitchy sisters routine, but it isn't unreasonable as I mentioned above, for the girls to revert back to old patterns when they go home. There's a great nonfiction book called Dance of Anger that explains the tendency. See above for my take on his interest in Sansa, but I hadn't considered the implications of him going back to KL. Mind you, would he dare show his face back there, even with all this juicy intel? Surely he'd know that they'd kill him after they got what they wanted from him, And not quickly, either. All great points. My one quibble is your last sentence. He wants to anger Arya enough to fan the friction he has already seen between the two sisters, He needs to keep Sansa isolated, so that she continues to confide in, or turn to him. He doesn't have many allies - or even people in power who are neutral to him - left. Completely agree.
  6. I prefer summer

    How can Daenerys make her claim stronger than Jon's

    Sam, I'm curious why you think Jon would bend the knee to Cersei to get her aid to fight the WW. Then why won't he bend the knee to Dany? I know he doesn't "know" her, but he already knows what a hot mess of a ruler Cersei is.
  7. Yes, but I suspect they'll have very different takes on her! Hound: That crazy bitch packs a whallop! Tormund: You're a lucky man!"
  8. I prefer summer

    [SPOILERS] What did you love about this episode?

    Wow, I find it fascinating reading the Sansa versus Arya debates and the Jon versus Dany debates on this forum, because so many people tend to see these characters as black or white. (I don't mean to single you out by quoting you, Iron Mother - I'm still struggling with the multi-quote thing.) The Sansa/Arya plot is a typical dramatic plot device - two characters who mistrust each other and make it much worse by not being open and honest with one another. It is understandable, as both young women have been mistreated and betrayed, and they don't know each other's story. I've never been a big fan of either character (Note: based on show only - haven't read the books). But I do think they have both acquired some survival skills, based on their experiences. And I think they would make a formidable team, if they could find some way to communicate and build trust. I agree that Sansa totally bought into her Lady of the Manor upbringing, and she was a spoiled, silly brat in Season 1. But even if she still likes "nice things," she has learned that things like duty, safety and family are much more important. She may disagree with some of Jon's decisions, but she confronts him directly about them. I don't think she is turning on him or betraying him. I think she has embraced her new, albeit temporary, position, and she is putting some of her new skills to good use and being helpful in war preparation and ally management. Sansa took on the position that Jon delegated to her, but I don't get the impression that she lusts for power. She accepted his election of KITN. She offered him the master bedroom. She told Bran he was Lord of Winterfell. The main evidence we have that she has some alterior motive are glances she she exchanges with LF. I am hoping that she is not falling for his shit again, but merely keeping her enemies close. Can't say I agree with the characterization of her having had it pretty good, though. She was betrayed, manipulated and brutalized by people she thought/hoped would take care of her. Pretty dresses and servants don't make up for being publicly humiliated and raped, being forced to stare at your father's severed head on a spike, or being raped repeatedly in front of the creepy "brother" who betrayed your family. Arya has also had a horrible time of it, and she is both strong and severely damaged because of it. She has amazing fighting skills, magical disguise abilities (although I don't remember anything about her being able to know what is in someone's heart - is that a book thing?). She also sees Sansa through a childhood lens, and she idolizes Jon, so she is highly suspicious of Sansa's motives. I am REALLY hoping that the writers are manipulating us into believing that LF will turn the sisters against each other. It would be so much more satisfying if they came to the conclusion, on their own or with at least a clue from Bran, that LF is screwing with them. I would LOVE it to turn out that they are playing him right now, working together. Maybe that is a pipe dream, but I so hope that they have both learned from all their mistreatment, realized that blood is thicker than water, and start working together. Maybe I am being naive - I try to attribute good intentions, except with characters who have proven themselves untrustworthy, like LF.
  9. I prefer summer

    [SPOILERS] What did you love about this episode?

    I've seen discussion about the prophesy on another thread (the who is the father one, perhaps). There's a therory that the prophesy is already untrue, because Cercei told Cat that she had a child who died (or was stillborn?). It is certainly a plot line that caught almost everyone off guard. It makes the Jaime-kills-Cercei theory less likely, unless: She is lying The baby isn't his (or she tells him it isn't, to hurt him) She does something horrible to endanger/lose the baby (which would be out of character) She loses the baby Andrea goes even more off the Mad Queen deep end
  10. I prefer summer

    A Wight for Cersei? Seriously?

    Interesting, Jaglover. That raises a question: does the NK know what is going on south of the wall? If so, how? Does he have visions, like Bran? Wargs? I can't imagine he has spies.
  11. I prefer summer

    Jon Is No Longer Stark Or Snow: Implications For Many People

    I have a hard time believing that life will go back to anything this normal after the Great War. I think that's kind of the point of all the talk about "break the wheel" and "the only war that matters." I hope I'm wrong, but I'm expecting it to be more post-apocalyptic than that. And I can't help thinking that there are still things we need to learn about the White Walkers and their objectives. We used to think that the Wildlings were pure evil. Now, they are allies, and we discovered that they are not as different as we imagined. Granted, they are also breathing, as Jon mentioned. But I can't believe the end of the story will just be about how everyone comes together to defeat the ice zombies and their king. I think there is more intrigue to come.
  12. I prefer summer

    its official

    I read on another thread in this forum (sorry, can't remember which) than Aerys had disinherited Rhaegar's family. Is that true? If so, it puts a monkey wrench into any claim Jon might have.
  13. I prefer summer

    its official

    Actually, it isn't proof about Jon being R and L's son. It isn't even proof that there was a child. Only a wedding. So, either people need to accept Bran's visions on faith, or Meera need to bring her father back as an eye witness. I can't believe that there will be ANY written evidence about Jon's birth, as the whole idea was to hide the knowledge from Robert. And really, even an eye-witness account isn't proof; it's just evidence.
  14. I prefer summer

    Soo.... Yall telling me that there is no Gendry jokes this week??

    I'd be happy with an entire episode of Davos, Tormund, Tyrion and Bronn just bantering back and forth. OK, you can include the Hound, but there'd better be enough ale and chicken, or things might get ugly.
  15. I prefer summer

    The burning of the Tarlys - discussion

    To quote Davos and Stannis, "Fewer."