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  1. Is it just me or is there very little in this story that we didn't know before or couldn't have guessed. I had the feeling that I read a chapter of AWOIAF in another format.
  2. Zapho

    What if Tywin had Tommen marry Sansa?

    I'm not quite sure what you are disagreeing with here. I answered someone's question whether Tyrion and Sansa's wedding happened before or after fakeArya was given to the Boltons. I got the feeling you misunderstood the premise here. The Lannister position depended heavily on the Tyrells and Stannis was defeated but still around. The Vale was still neutral with family ties to Robb. I'd argue that Tywin needed Roose as much as Roose needed Tywin. Roose could have chosen to wait and see a bit longer. In case Robb was defeated, the Lannisters were going to need allies in the North anyway. And Robb was still undefeated in the field. There is a huge difference between keeping Sansa as a hostage and marrying her to his own son. The objective of the Red Wedding was to kill Robb. Which would make Sansa heiress to Winterfell and all other Stark claims to the North, the Wardenship etc. If Tywin had offered the Wardenship first, then took steps to make sure Sansa's claims were kept within his family, it'd be like offering something with one hand while holding a knife in the other to take it away again. We don't know when things were agreed upon but we do know when they happened. Fake Arya 'inherited' Sansa's position on the playing field (i. e. the claims to Winterfell and the North) when Sansa disappeared as a wanted kingslayer and her husband was about to lose his head. FArya was shipped off to the North after the Purple Wedding. She was not married to another Lannister. She was not kept in King's Landing. This suggests to me that Roose was in a position to demand that Tywin help him solidify the Bolton claim to the North with a marriage. It's not even against Lannister interests to help their allies, on the contrary. Would fArya have been part of the initial agreement between Tywin and Roose? Maybe, but I think it's doubtful, because she was of little value - Sansa was the heiress, not Arya. And while Sansa was around - hostage or not - the fArya mummer's show was in too much risk of backfiring on the puppet masters. Would Sansa have been a topic in the negotiations between Tywin and Roose if they started before Sansa was married to Tyrion? It would be only logical imho. In this scenario, whether Roose demanded Sansa's hand or not, whether Tywin was willing to give her to the Boltons eventually or not, marrying her off to someone else would have raised issues, because the Wardenship of the North was Bolton's promised reward for taking a huge risk and Sansa's 'value' on the marriage market was her ability to threaten those claims. This is not at all proven. Ramsay successfully framed the Ironborn for the sack of Winterfell. And the timing is unclear, it's possible it happened on Roose's order after the Red Wedding betrayal was agreed upon. Or on Roose's order before the Red Wedding was hatched, in a bid to gain leadership of the Northern forces for himself by proving that the Starks were useless. There's the question how Ramsay managed to order the Bolton garrison to commit something of this magnitude without Roose's sayso. And another question is why Ramsay sacked Winterfell instead of securing it whole. I only see a couple of possible sequences of events here: Sansa was married to Tyrion before Tywin and Roose started talking to each other. This would be a thight time-frame, but not impossible. The threat of the Tyrells (or a third party) snatching Sansa away was too great and too immediate - she had to be taken off the marriage market asap and married to someone who Tywin could claim would not use that marriage to threaten the Boltons. This would have made negotiations difficult though because the value of Roose's reward took a significant slump anyway and trust issues between Roose and Tywin (which would be there anyway given their personalities and the delicate nature of the deal) could have been exacerbated to the point of bursting the deal. Roose and Tywin agreed upon marrying Sansa to Tyrion because they agreed that getting her off the market and keeping her in their camp was more important than securing the Bolton claim to the North. I suppose that's possible if Tywin wanted to endanger Tyrion's life. I personally prefer the first option, that the Red Wedding was planned later rather than for a long time and that Sansa was already married to Tyrion by then. The reason is that I highly doubt that Roose would risk it without getting every possible insurance from Tywin that was available.
  3. The prologue pov is usually from some minor character who is about to die in a meeting with a significant background force. Right? And Jeyne Westerling is supposed to be in it. That would put it somewhere in the West. Significant background force would probably be the BWB/LSH. As for the minor character pov, maybe Sibel Westerling. The BWB could kidnap/rescue Jeyne and kill the traitorous Westerlings. LSH could have learned from Jaime what really happened and decided to take revenge. Maybe Brienne and even Jaime are forced to take part, Jaime as a way to get into their castle. If Jeyne is going underground with the BWB - willingly or not - they could sow doubts about there being an heir to Robb. That might even provide a rallying point for the resistance to the Boltons and Freys. Maybe even somewhere to go for Sansa/Alayne.
  4. Zapho

    What if Tywin had Tommen marry Sansa?

    Finally someone who asks this question, lol. Sansa married Tyrion before the Red Wedding. Fake Arya was sent away after the purple wedding, when Sansa was no longer available and wanted for kingslaying. However, the wedding of Sansa and Tyrion must have taken place while Tywin negotiated the Red Wedding with Walder Frey and Roose Bolton. Or more likely shortly before negotiations were taken up. If I were Roose, I would have asked for Sansa to be married to his heir, not Arya. Especially not a fake Arya. It would only be reasonable from Roose's perspective. I think it's possible that Tywin wanted to forestall this particular demand as soon as possible. Having the elder Stark daughter marry his son while he basically offered Roose her inheritance would have been seen by Roose as an affront. A sure sign that Tywin had no intentions of helping him keep the position. Roose would undoubtedly understand that this is what Tywin intended in the long run, but doing it during negotiations would have made it official. Something Roose could not ignore. It would have been the end of that particular alliance. Tywin needed to make the marriage a fait accompli before he ever proposed the deal. Sansa had to be wed to a Lannister before Roose had a chance to ask for her hand. Tywin couldn't offer her because he couldn't be sure that Roose wouldn't double-cross him. He could not give Sansa away to a Northerner. The risk was too great and he wanted to keep her as a hostage: against both Roose and Stark loyalists. Olenna Tyrell's scheme to marry Sansa to Willas might have provided a convenient excuse to Tywin to explain what he did to Roose - if Olenna had proposed the marriage officially, he would have been in a difficult position to deny her. Another factor is probably that there was no guarantee that the Red Wedding would succeed. Robb was still alive at the time. That is probably also a major factor why Tyrion was chosen as Sansa's husband, not someone like Lancel or another cousin: It served as an insult to the Starks. Not just because he is a dwarf and thus not a desirable match despite his noble birth but also because he is the one who Cat accused of sending the cat's paw to kill Bran.
  5. Zapho

    Did the Tyrells violate guest right?

    Not that I recall. Maybe guest rights don't apply if you have to pay for the hospitality - in an inn for example. Or if you bring your own food to the table - like Lord Manderly or the Tyrells (who paid for the food served at the Purple Wedding).
  6. Zapho

    Small Questions v. 10105

    We don't have the relevant information to determine this afaik. Could just as well be that married men are not allowed to join the NW as long as their wives are alive. Or their wives can't remarry and just have a tough lot handed to them.
  7. That's a good point about Stannis. Never thought about it in that way before. About Robert: If there is a citadel conspiracy at work, having Grandmaester Pycelle making sure that the Lannisters came out on top of Robert's Rebellion would have been a smart move. He also covered for Cersei's cuckolding Robert. Whether intentional or not, Pycelle was instrumental in making sure that the IT went to kings without Targaryen blood.
  8. Zapho

    What's your favourite crack! Ship

    Qyburn / Melisandre
  9. I read the books first years ago. I liked the first three books, but AFFC and ADWD were a disappointment as the plot started to meander and GRRM sent his POV characters where he wanted to put in some plot-bunny he found interesting. Especially Brienne's and Theon's POV chapters have moments that made me cringe. I was so disappointed in them that I decided to not touch these books again unless a published version of the final novel in the series was available for sale. Which I did not expect to see in my life time and still don't. The TV show got me hooked on the story again. I wouldn't have reread the novels without it. I had read the short stories and AWOIAF in the meantime as well as background info and theories on the internet and I quite enjoyed the nuggets and diversions in the novels on the rereads - which I did slow and at leisure. I consider ASOIAF as a huge patchwork of fake history set in a more or less coherent fictional world. As such, the novels are enjoyable. As a novel series, they suffer from the huge amount of plot-lines - especially those that were obviously added after the first three books were already written - and the many additions that another author might have put into short stories instead of the main novels. As I suspect that GRRM has lost focus and or interest in the main story, I am happy to get an ending via the TV show. If the WoW are published in my lifetime, I'll certainly buy it now and read it with interest. I'd really like to see how the many cliffhangers get resolved in the novels and how the characters and the story are developed, but as we are more likely to get another couple of novellas set in the history of the Targaryens instead of the future, I have accepted that it won't happen. It's GRRM'S world, he can do with it whatever he likes. The TV show has good and bad moments, the first seasons are certainly better than the later ones. I attribute this to the fact that they don't have the novels to draw from as well, but I find it unfair to blame the show-writers for this. Many of the changes they made in the earlier seasons were necessary and well done. I believe they would have made a good adaptation of the later novels too. Or maybe finished the story on their own in a satisfactory way. To adapt a novel that is not written with bits of information about what is supposed to happen from the author is a recipe for desaster, however, and as far as desasters go, they could have done worse.
  10. Zapho

    Let's speculate wildly about Lady Dustin

    She corrects Theon's calling her Lady of Barrowton. She is the widow of Barrowton. ADWD, A ghost in Winterfell, an enumeration of every house that hates the Freys cause they lost kin at the RW. She could be referring to her bannermen. She could be referring to other members of the Dustin family. As there was a mention of uncles and such who could go in her husband's stead to Robert's rebellion, I'm inclined to assume that there are Dustin family members left. Then there is the letter to the LC of the NW informing Jon of the taking of Moat Cailin and "Arya's" impending marriage to Ramsay. ADWD, Jon People have suggested this is a typo, but what if it's not? What if technically there is a Lord Dustin? From Reek, ADWD This is Theon's POV. Does he really understand the technicalities of all the powerplays among northern houses? There is no doubt that Barbrey Dustin is a powerful person in the North. She's certainly smart enough to strengthen her hold on power and to make even Roose Bolton wary of her. The way a woman becomes powerful in Westeros is always through some male. If they are holding claims of their own, they become fodder for scavenger crows very fast: Lady Ermesande, Sansa, Lady Hornwood, fArya. Even Asha is in danger of this fate (the marriage to that old castellan on Pyke). Women who rule in the name of a male on the other hand are forces to be reckoned with: Cersei as Queen Regent, Lysa Arryn, Lady Waynwood, the mother of the last king of the Vale who gave up his kingdom for a flight on a dragon ... All this suggests that there is a male Lord Dustin somewhere who serves as figurehead for Lady Dustin's rule. And if Lady Dustin is as smart and ruthless and scheming as I am starting to think she is, she will make sure that there will always be an underage Lord there to provide legitimacy to her rule as the widow of the Barrowlands. Someone with a clear claim, no power of his own, and lots of heirs in waiting so as to not make it feasible to just remove him.
  11. Zapho

    Let's speculate wildly about Lady Dustin

    Lol, sorry about that. I searched for threads about Lady Dustin looking for something else entirely and found this one. The question is a good one imo and it isn't really resolved. The OP is absolutely right: Lady Dustin should have to fend off marriage proposals for her finger-clippings - and violent ones to boot - if she were in the same situation as Lady Hornwood. The thing I was researching initially is ideas about why the hell both Roose Bolton and Lady Dustin were telling Theon of all people all those juicy details about their history. There has to be something going on here, else it would be incredibly bad writing to have Theon as an exposition POV just because he's conveniently there. I dunno, maybe these themes are related. Or they aren't.
  12. Zapho

    Let's speculate wildly about Lady Dustin

    I hope it isn't considered necromancy to revive an older thread here. The question is why is Lady Dustin's situation different from Lady Hornwood's. Wouldn't it make a huge difference if their was a direct heir and the succession was unequivocal? The question that arises from that would be why she is still calling the shots in the Barrowlands. The direct heir would have to be a minor who doesn't have a closer relative than her to act as guardian and rule in their stead. As her husband is already more than sixteen years dead, the only possibility that comes to mind is that the first heir - maybe an orphaned nephew or niece of her husband - has died in the meantime and left the next heir, a small child right now, in the same position. He'd technically be Lord Dustin, but old Lady Dustin is still the one in charge.
  13. Zapho

    Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

    @ divica: Awesome, just awesome. These connections make one hell of a lot of sense. Any chance there is a connection to the sorcerer who cut Varys in this? Marwyn to awake the dragons? Sorry for the tangent, that's one of my pet loose ends in Planetos lore. There is just no good theory about it and it is important says my gut. @LynnS: Redemption for Jaime is certainly a possibility. His arc takes the classic direction for it. Which makes me wary. If you look closer, there is not much character development in Jaime. The things I do for love was right at the beginning of the series. We've got the element of self-loathing (an unkind interpretation might call it hypocritical self-pity) at having to do something profoundly despicable. Yet he does it anyway. And his reasons are selfish, unlike his famous Kingslaying no-one can claim it was for the greater good. Anyway, maybe I'm biased against Jaime. This first impression stuck with me and I can't read his POV without bearing in mind that he actually said "The things I do for love". It's not just the things he did, it is the claim he does it for love that is telling. There is an element of idealization that simply is hypocritical, delusional and somewhat juvenile. He never even considers that his love is putting his sister (and their mutual children) in mortal danger, destabilizing the realm, hang a sword of Damocles over their children's heads by laying doubts over their legitimacy and so on. His POV is certainly not as madness-tainted as Cersei's, but I don't think it's the reality check on hers that it looks like (in aFfC). It's mostly the things that are not there that are telling. It's easy to loathe Cersei while reading her POV, but it's also there that Jaime does not support her while it happens. He starts to loathe her instead of trying to bring her back and prevent her from undermining their son's position. While she goes on a grieve-induced rampage he does not do enough to stop it. Instead of taking an active part in the government and their son's education, he plays the LC of the Kingsguard. His dream of marrying Cersei and making their relationship public is as mad as anything Cersei did and again incredibly selfish. He doesn't even consider the very real implications for their children. It's once again some romanticized, idealized notion he embraces instead of taking responsibility for the mess he helped create and do something constructive. Dare I say it, he's sort of a coward. He moans about the loss of his sword hand (which is certainly traumatic) while he doesn't rise up to the challenges that don't require him swinging a sword. Deep down, I think he is unable to cope with the demands of RL. That's what his self-imposed restriction of his role as KG and only KG is really about: eschewing responsibilty. Is this too harsh a judgement? Maybe. But on the other hand is it really too much to ask of a father to do everything in his power to protect his children? And to expect him to at least consider that this is his prime responsibility? This is the vibe I miss from his POV the most. He is no father to his children and he fails miserably as a partner for his 'love'. To somehow wind up this rambling post, I think that Jaime has an unhealthy relationship with ideals and idealizations. He has been using them as his personal comfort zones and retreats for years. In a morbid, often self-pitying fashion. That's why I don't think that his relationship with Brienne can be the spark that kindles true redemption. Brienne embodies an idea he loves or used to love. The problem with Jaime is as ever that it is quite questionable whether he loves the idea of the idea or the real thing.
  14. Zapho

    Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

    Oh, absolutely. Jaime has very much become the Knight in Shining Armor in Brienne's phantasies. I think he might even have replaced Renly somewhat in that role. Brienne is as naive as early Sansa in some respects. And she's also not too bright (the way she kept asking about Sansa on her way was not an example of refined cunning). It's quite possible that she has been hoodwinked into thinking that the BwB will eventually see in him what she sees herself. Or ... ... Brienne could also have accepted that she has to kill Jaime. If she was convinced it was her duty - because Jaime betrayed his oath - she would put her personal feelings aside and act on it. Her touching Oathkeeper for reassurance wouldn't be out of place in this scenario either. She would definitely feel conflicted about it and need to remind herself of the oaths sworn. btw: Someone upthread mentioned an oath Brienne swore to Jaime. When did that happen? I only recall their oaths to Lady Cat. Brienne swore to keep him safe while on the mission and to kill him should he try to betray his own oath. What did I miss?