butterweedstrover

Could you clarify what you mean? How does that quote suggest or not suggest a bias towards the Blacks? I'm not following. edit: I think I get it. I agree the books don't have a bias as both sides are made to be supremely unsympathetic. But that really hurt the reader investment and it was the show's job to add nuance to the characters and their motivations. Something it was doing until episode 6.

Regardless, she became bitter and isolated in court life which drives home the point nowhere was Alicent portrayed as Jealous of Rhaenyra.

Whatever the truth is to that specific passage it is not just a random detail pulled from whole cloth. There are certain things we know from the story at large which add to the idea or notion of their respective psychology. Whereas Alicent had four successful pregnancies and retained this sort of aura as a Queen, Rhaenyra lost hers and around the same time the moniker of “the realm’s delight”. She became despised by many in the city and isolated herself in Dragonstone away from her subjects she is supposed to rule. Was she jealous? We don’t know for sure but it’s a concept F&B introduces to us because otherwise Mushroom would never have been referenced to us at all. Compare that to the show where Rhaenyra is made out to be less stressful, at a calm, and with a freedom that allows her to raise better children than Alicent you can see how Alicent is given the short end of the stick for no other reason than to keep Rhaenyra from being dislikable and making sure people know they are suppose to hate Alicent. I don’t know why you feel the need to misinterpret the argument but you don’t come off as more enlightened by doing so. Rhaenyra was raised in court as this delightful princess who received the acclaim of those around her and the promise she will be queen. Then her stepmother who is her sworn enemy in court surpasses her in beauty, in terms of attention, and leaving her to the point of bitterness where she loses the moniker “the realm’s delight” and escapes to Dragonstone away from where all her subjects had sung her praise. Yeah, there is room for jealousy. But more importantly the reverse is never suggested which is why the show happens to be going out of its way to make Alicent more insufferable. The book does not make the slightest gesture towards Alicent being jealous of Rhaenyra. Yet this is the approach they took which raises the question why? You didn’t get my post. This is a narrative, character motivation matters especially when discussing moral ambiguity or lack there of. Saying the reason Alicent crowns Aegon doesn’t matter shows you don’t really care about this story or you think so little of it that it’s not worth discussing. It is important whether Alicent thinks she is doing this for the realm, her children, her family, or for power. The rationale behind her decision affects the moral fidelity of her side and they sympathy it can encourage. Whereas if she is just evil Rhaenyra’s side is diluted into the “good” team regardless of methods. I’m talking from the show internally. The first five episodes make it clear Alicent doesn’t desire the throne. She circumvents her father in trying to undermine Rhaenyra and keeps herself a friend to the princess. She shows no interest in having her son as heir. The one motive we are given is when Alicent is led to believe her children are endanger if Rhaenyra ascends. Fast forward to the next episode and Alicent is showing no regards for the safety of her children, just pure ambition for the throne. That is a 180. And if they did to make sure people know Alicent is the villain then that is bad writing. There are many ways they could have added nuance to the greens and they DID in the first five episodes. They showed Rhaenyra being disrespectful to the nobility suggesting she is not making allies. They could expand this to show how she is self-centered and disinterested in ruling well. Rhaenyra could become cold and lead Alicent to speculate the worst. If the realm hated Rhaenyra they would look for an alternative and then Alicent’s children would be threatened. If Rhaenyra gave Alicent the impression she doesn’t care about them it could motivate Alicent even more. Instead by episode 6 they had Rhaenyra be calm, diplomatic, and even offer intrinsic protection to Alicent’s children through a marriage proposal. Which leaves Alicent’s constant undermining of Rhaenyra to come off as generic lust for power. Which not only dilutes the nuance behind her character, but further makes the greens into the “bad guys” so that all of the blacks in their desire to stop the greens have a heroic frame behind them, even if they do awful things. Tell that to Martin. He is the one who insists this story has no good guys or bad guys. Which I think would be more compelling television. In fact it was during the first five episodes.

Not everyone on the good side are ‘good’. I mean they are on the right side which removes nuance from the conflict.

It’s murder that is treated as a non-serious crime. We can speculate that it is philosophically wrong but in the show’s framework the guy doesn’t matter and the moral consequence of his death is zilch. Compare that to Jessie killing Gale (Breaking Bad). He does it to save his friend but Gale is given a personality, a reason to live, and actual emotional and practical consequences for the character. BB framed that as wrong. This show does not frame the murder of the guard as wrong. We might know it on an intellectual level but the show either doesn’t know or doesn’t care.

The question is are her actions post episode 5 sympathetic at all? Is her taunting Rhaenyra for having children her husband could not provide sympathetic? Is her pressuring her children against those of Rhaenyra sympathetic? Is her jealous and mean attitude sympathetic? Is skulking sympathetic? Is her deal with Larys sympathetic? Is her mannerism towards the betrothal offer sympathetic? No, they are just that of the evil step-mother. And all that backstory about why she hates Rhaenyra is just your supposition to make sense of this dramatic shift in characterization. Jon’s example requires either Jon to want the throne or Dany to show herself unfit in some way. Dany and Robert is if the line on the throne usurped a the previous bloodline. Stannis had a claim since Cersei’s children weren’t Roberts. Rhaenyra has her own blood as her children, she is not competing against an expelled family line, and she is not showing any great incompetence. All that is left is for Alicent to want the throne. With the reasons the show is giving us the only reason they’re endanger is because Alicent is making them which doesn’t fit her character of the previous episodes. They’re a danger because of Alicent. Because Alicent refuses a betrothal and because Alicent wants Rhaenyra removed. So she has reasons for being evil isn’t that compelling. Disney does that for their villains and the moral dilemma is still shallow and lacking in ambiguity. They didn’t grow, they are not real. This shift was a creative decision and I find it a lazy stupid decision. That’s your take but the show does it’s best to say otherwise. Again, the show wants us to think she tried and he was the one to let her down and he is the one to blame. Marrying an uncooperative husband isn’t her fault since the marriage wasn’t her choice.

I never have nor ever will put into question the motives behind your arguments nor every use personal language to describe your opinions. I just hoped this discussion would not fizzle being as you had such strong opinions on the matter initially. Like in comparing Daemon killing a guard to Theon burning to kids. So let’s get into it: Daemon protecting Rhaenyra’s claim to the iron throne is heroic. Theon protecting his own claim to Winterfell is evil. One side is righteous, the other is framed as theft and wrong.

For someone with unusually aggressive language like framing criticism as “whining” and telling people to fuck off with their arguments you are peculiarly devoid of much substance to back up the ferocity of your positions.

I took issue with technical aspects but overall I like the direction of the story until episode 6. Doesn’t change anything I’ve said so far. Is that it really? Your not even go to try to get what I’m saying? Daemon helping Rhaenyra secure her throne is the heroic thing, not killing the guard.

This doesn’t really work. Mushroom is part of the story and his version has a bit of truth just like everyone else’s. But this is what the book gives us, the book does not however make the slightest hint of the opposite which is what the show is running with. It doesn’t matter why, it matters that the emotional dynamic between them has been reversed. We know from the first five episodes that Alicent didn’t want to steal Rhaenyra’s throne and would only do it to protect her children. The book doesn’t give us a reason why she wanted Aegon on throne. Was it for her own personal power or to protect his life? The show did a 180 and made it all about Alicent’s personal ambition which wasn’t developed before hand. Like I just want her to have flaws so Alicent’s position seems morally viable. Alicent must have some reason to want the throne that makes her side sympathetic besides muh power because otherwise the story will be one sided.

No clue. Someone else pointed this out to me, I guess I’ll bring it up with the mods at some point. Yeah, the problem with the whole the realm would not support a women as that even with a viable alternative they do side the women, a great many of them actually. Otherwise there would be no war.

It wasn’t in the first five episodes and then they went harder against the greens than the book itself by removing Rhaenyra’s flaws (her jealousy, undiplomatic tone, betrayal of her husband, etc.) and giving them to Alicent. Do you get my issue? It’s not whining, it’s a discussion about the show and it’s merits or lack there of. The murder of the nameless guard wasn’t heroic, it was helping his niece secure her throne which was the heroic part. The murder itself not portrayed as villainous. What was portrayed as villainous is Daemon seemingly paying to see Leanor dead. The death of the guard was just a means to end, that end being helping Rhaenyra in her righteous battle against the greens.

Even if they did all this it wouldn’t change the fact that Rhaenyra is having her throne stolen from her due to sexism. So the audience would expect Alicent to stand by her or be deemed a villain. The only way to foment real nuance to the character’s emotions is to legitimately show Rhaenyra capable of killing Alicent’s children and unwilling to offer her an olive branch or show how Rhaenyra’s actions, not her sex, will turn the realm against her. Something the show is unwilling to do.

In Westeros he is. He decided to start the brawl when he responded to a little girl’s shove with outright threats of murder and follow through.

My point is the dead guard isn’t supposed to reflect badly on team black since the show has an inherit bias towards them. There is a world of a difference between characters doing bad things portrayed as evil and characters doing bad things portrayed as heroic.

He escalated the situation and as the oldest in the room he should not have. The little girl shoved him because she thought he stole her dragon. No audience member is going to call her evil for doing that. They will call a grown man (which Aemond is) punching her in the face and threatening to kill all those children a maniac.

Quantity doesn't really matter. It's not about the failure of the show in a technical sense, it's about what the show is trying to accomplish and why that thing is not conducive of a good story or the claims Martin himself has attached to this show. I mean, the show is succeeding in making Alicent look evil, so it's not a failure at all. But let's actually whittle this down a little, here are some of the arguments I oppose: 1. Rhaenyra wanted Aemond tortured 2. Daemon killing some unnamed guard was meant to somehow reflect moral corruption upon the Blacks 3. Rhaenyra's characterization post episode 5 fits her book counterpart Now all three of these I find to be completely inadequate claims, and on further inspection somewhat pointless. When Rhaenyra is made out in the book to be jealous and bitter people respond with the claim that this comes from an unreliable source. And yet they cannot find a passage where Rhaenyra during this period in her life is calm, diplomatic, sensible, and kind. This is just assumed to be the case but it is really an invention of the show. There is no basis for it either in the book or in the previous five episodes. So why does the show do this if not to make Alicent look worse in comparison. If Rhaenyra is having her flaws excised from her character then the show has a less compelling story on its hand. In the end we get back to this central point: Alicent having reasons (which the show does not describe) for being jealous, vindictive, and power hungry does not justify her behavior. Her actions are evil regardless of why she became this way. And she became this way because of a creative decision amongst the writers, not because the first five episodes guaranteed this outcome or that the source material forced them to write her like this. And I ask does this make for compelling television and my answer is no. It makes for story where there is only one side to root for.

Not heroes, the heroes. They did something bad to help each other out. Your point is like watching some teen show where the main characters steal something to save their friends and going "but theft is bad." It's about showing the dedication the crew has for each other and how this is their story, not dwelling on the suffering their adventures might hypothetically cause. If that was what the show wanted it would might have actual done something to make the guards death impactful to someone or something.

But I never said I disliked it. My point was in the grandier scheme of things it plays into Blacks good, Greens bad story arch. With Alicent being completely villainized with no redeeming qualities (excuses for her bad behavior does not make her behavior any less bad)

Question about where he heard the rumor from, come on. As for the rest, he was threatening to kill a bunch of kids. He was the oldest one and decided to try and beat them all up, including hitting a little girl. If a little girl shoved me for stealing her dragon everyone would expect me to be the one to deescalate, not punch her in the face. No one watching is going to blame the freaking children for defending themselves.

Focus on the why. Theon killed two children to force Wintefell into submission. Daemon, Qarl, Rhaenyra, and Laenor had a random guard killed so two lovers can live happily ever after and Rhaenyra can secure her throne (which is being threatened by a mother-in-law who attacked her with a knife and spent the past 10 years trying to destroy her).

Theon burning two children to forcibly submit an unwilling population was played up as evil. Daemon was made to be like this because he was supposedly paying this guy to kill his own lover (and someone Daemon supposedly treats as a friend and technically his brother in law). When it's all a fake out that tone is gone. Corlys and Rhaenys aren't crying over that guard, they will not notice when he is gone. It's the reason they did it, to give Leanor a happy ending and save Rhaenyra's throne which makes them heroes. Heroes with an edge being ready to kill for each other. Compare that to Larys who just kills his whole family and Rhaenyra's lover because Alicent said mean things about them.

No but seriously DMC, when Daemon said he wanted a quick death was not the audience suppose to think of Leanor. And were they not subverted when that didn't happen? Everything that happened beforehand was meant to playing into the idea that they were going to kill Leanor. But go back to comparing the murder of the guard to Theon burning two children.

This goes back to the tragic backstoryTM trope where a villain is given reasons for being villainous. It has the same fidelity as saying the Mountain is evil because he was abused as a child, it doesn't make his cause anymore sympathetic. And it was not what was displayed in the earlier episodes. Alicent did not have a desire for the throne, she was not ambitious. But Alicent isn't fighting for her children's lives. You said yourself she is jealous of Rhaenyra and wants to bring her down a notch. If she cared about her children she would have considered the marriage proposal. All Alicent 2.0 wants is war. And no matter how wronged she feels her side is entirely unsympathetic which is why everyone hates her. Not since episode 5 when all the characters turned into different people. Now Criston Cole and Larys are far worst than Daemon. The show went out of its way to tell us that they tried and Laenor could not finish. Anything else is you adding headcanon to create something that is not there. Funny, people were comparing Rhaenyra to Stannis in the earlier episodes because Rhaenyra expected her claim to gain her allies and not her diplomacy. Alicent doesn't follow the rules. She teams up with a maniac who killed his own family to steal the throne. Stannis at least believed his claim was rightful, Alicent does not even pretend. They could have done a lot, they could had Rhaenyra not be so generous and not offer the marriage alliance. They could have had her shown violent tendencies or actually demanded a child be tortured to put the fear for her children into the mind of Alicent. But they didn't and every excuse you dredged up is from your imagination, not the show itself.

That 'music' was meant to play into the assumption Daemon was paying him to kill Leanor. It was meant to trick audiences, not explore the corrupt nature of his relationship with Rhaenyra. But go on about what everyone else sees as obvious.