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  1. One more thing about the trios before I forget: The devouring head is Arya (I've already spoken about this). The mystery head is Aegon (unknown, yet to reveal himself) The reborn head is Jon (he is reborn from the dead). The arrows work like this: Cored apple (Golden shaft sliced right through) is Aegon. He has dornish blood, like the golden spear through the sun. The Rotten Apple is Arya (Of course) And the missed arrow, the apple that falls in the water is Jon (The child who missed his true parentage).
  2. I could say more about this. Chiseled is (according to this https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/chiseled#:~:text=If you say that someone,a chiselled jaw.) Slender features show a clear jawline, and fine features show themselves in a fine chiseled faced. We have Slender, fine featured face. (Jaqen) Fine chiseled face. (Targaryen) Could be, but with the allegory to arbor gold (lies) he was traded for the truth (the pisswater boy). This story is told to YG, as he was to young to remember any of this. Truth was traded for lies. He is the false prince, the mummer's dragon. But Aegon VI, the prince who was promised, has been alluded to since the first book. Being told multiple times that the corpse was unidentifiable is again not "no reason". As for the baby swap, the whole point of Jon's actions is to establish the concept of how such a thing should play out. "Another woman would have..." Most of Varys/Ilyrio's plans have been improvised up until this point. They thought first they would get Viserys to invade Westeros with an army of Dothraki. They thought next that YG should marry Daenerys. Then they followed along as Tyrion convinced Connington/Golden company to go west instead of east. The Varys moves up his timeline and kills Kevan. All this is to say none of their plans are perfect, or even well thought out. YG was born after Aegon. So the plan didn't come to fruition until after the baby swap. They had Rhaegar's child, but then they had a baby with white hair and Valyrian features. The plan follows from there (trade pisswater for arbor gold). None of this was planned out. They didn't know Robert would win, or any of that. They conspired as they went. Maybe, we'll see. He probably has heard the accusations before, and he knew Amory Lorch killed Rhaenys, so he yells out what people think is the truth. Or maybe it is, I really don't know. I'm just keeping it in the back of my mind. If baby Aegon didn't have his face smashed in, he would be recognized by some of the castle guards/milk ladies/whatever, and that would be that. But now things are different, the corpse was specifically said to be unidentified. That lifts much of the burden of proof on YG, Connington, etc. That the face Jaqen used wasn't from some dead person. Neither is Doran. We are told he is meek, passive, and sickly. We learn the truth about his true temperance, and how long he can hold a grudge, and how far he is willing to go. Whose to say the dye he's using is the same as Sansa. The HOBAW (In Arya's chapter) is filled with poultices, potions, poison's, and stranger things yet from the far east. And if the face was fake, shouldn't the same thing apply (since again, the person who would have it would not have their hair biologically split down the middle with two different colors that are of completely different hues). Both of Rhaegar's children (Jon and Rhaenys) look nothing like him. Jaqen does more, but he probably doesn't share all the same features. Unless we know baby Aegon's eye colors. The whole point of the claim here is that Jaqen wanted to get captured, and Varys was completely fooled. I doubt (from the evidence showed) that he wanted to get captured since tried to get free. Rugen is in charge of the black cells, he know who is down there and why. So unless Jaqen got arrested on purpose (which I really doubt), he must have tripped up. And if he did Varys probably has a good idea of who he is dealing with. He told Arya he to come with him across the narrow sea, which is I think where he is going. Also we don't know when Euron gave out the contract, it could have been before Jaqen arrived in Westeros. It really works both ways. Jaqen/Alchemist are playing the role of secret prince, then he takes the identity of a person who is metaphorically a secret prince (the swineherd). The rules are not so rigid here. There is a lot of evidence he is looking to crack a dragon egg. ADWD brings up the book locked away in the citadel about dragons, Euron's contract, and the motif of Pate wanting a dragon (repeated time and time again). If your problem with him is why hasn't he left, then that is something you may as well bring up with the vast number of people who expect this to be the truth. There are many reasons why he would not leave the citadel so soon, many reasons. Remember, according to the extended lore, it was most like the maesters who poisoned the dragon eggs after the first dance with dragons. They know much and more about this subject, and they're keeping secrets. None of the non-targs want to try the ritual at summerhall again. And besides Euron/Victarion with the horn, I know of no one who actively wants a dragon for themselves. Tyrion for example doesn't want a dragon for himself. My point is Essos would be the first place people look. If a noble son of Rhaegar grows up to look like his father, how are non-Valyrian families suppose to explain this? Also he was taken at the start of the war. Rhaegar would have wanted the baby a safe distance from the fighting in Westeros, at least until the war was over (he had no plans of losing). Jon lucked out in that regard. True, only that he came from Essos All those people ( who could have alternative identities) already claim to be one person. Jaqen meanwhile is known to be a fake identity, same as the alchemist, and the others. So who is he? We don't know, because it is unknown. Think of it like this: There is a person named Bob and Person with no name Bob is from florida, the person with no name has no origins or backstory besides that he came from out of state. Bob could actual be someone else, but that would be a twist. The mysterious stranger could be anyone because we don't know who he is, where he was born, etc. I doesn't matter if it was the same song or not. Him playing sad music on his harp is reminiscent of the same thing. Yeah, which is why we know he sung a song for Lyanna, the same person he crown the queen of love and beauty. I added that line myself. Look at what he brings up right after, "the dragon must have three heads" Elia had just given birth to her first son, and Rhaegar says he needs more. She is weak and recuperating. She can't give him what he wants, but the first thing he says is that he needs another. He looks away from her, and all but dismisses her question about the song. Instead he goes to the windowsill and strums a sad tune (not for his son), but for Lyanna. I think Elia would notice that. So we go back to the line with Pate. Pate parallels two characters, the secret prince (Jaqen) and Rhaegar. He is infatuated with a fifteen year old maiden. He wants her, and he thinks she is worth a dragon. A dragon for the girl, a girl for a dragon. He wants to take her away with him. He wants to run away with her. The music is not half so sweet as Rosey to him. So he thinks on his first meeting with the alchemist: "you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her?" Those are the same words Elia would ask Rhaegar. She had just seen him crown another women in her place, why wouldn't she ask this question? Its not as if Rhaegar has a history of adultory. He responds: “I am no thief,” Note there is no gap in the text from the one line to the next. Rhaegar says he won't take a woman who is already betrothed. But like Pate he eventually (after time) concedes: “I suppose I am a thief.” He takes the dragon (coin), as Rhaegar takes the girl. They are both killed by this decision. No, Pate is both a parallel to Jaqen (the hidden prince) and Rhaegar (fifteen year old maiden for a dragon). Personally I think Ebony and Weirwood symbolize the faceless man no matter where they are placed together in the novel. She's connected to him by the coin, same as how she is connected to Jon by needle. Also, once again, her relationship is different than that with Gendry or Lady Stoneheart or the Hound. Go back to the scene under the heart tree and you will see what I mean. No, not just that. The wormed apples. She is compared to wormed apple's throughout the series. Worms devour the inside of an apple, and she eats those same things throughout. Now look at the scene with Alleras and the arrows. He (she) brings it up after the last arrow is loosed: “The dragon has three heads,” Three apples were shot, a cored apple, the worm eaten apple, and the last one fell into the water (Alleras missed that last shot). All three symbolize the three heads of the dragon. Dany herself isn't mention as part of the three, only that she has three heads of the dragon, or that she is related to the three heads. Let me show how I see the whole thing coming together: 'Arya will be a queen' Ned says in the first book. Lyanna made him promise something. The girl has her family taken from her. She is given Needle. She meets a man with red and white hair, fire and ice. He pledges to help her under the heart tree. We see this man again in the citadel, looking to birth a dragon. We see allusions to the second dance with dragons. Fire will burn Westeros, dragon vs. dragon. A black wall of smoke, flames engulfing people. Arya will be there, as well as the man with no name. She will call out to him when that time comes. We have the prophecy of the three dragons, and the devourer. The wormed apples, and the arbor gold. Arbor gold is lies, the pisswater is the truth. YG is introduced to us later, a boy made from a deal: truth traded for lies. The mummer's dragon. But the prince who was promised, the one Rhaegar needed alive, he has his face smashed in, unrecognizable. We have Dany, and Jon. She believes her family to all be dead, but that is not the truth. "She would have married him" (She speaks of Aegon VI). Look at the show if you will: Jon is foreshadowed to be named Aemon in the books. But they called him Aegon. The story is there, right beneath the surface. I want my cookie with extra m&ms.
  3. I'm connecting fine features with fine chiseled face based on the definition of "chiseled". I don't think YG was thought up that early on. You're right he could be using it to keep the door open, but the point was the mystery of Aegon VI was always part of the story. I think Rhaego is alive as well (another person theorized that at least). And Ashara, though Quentyn we are with when he burns. Edit: Regardless of whether or not they are alive, the question is how often is their fate brought into discussion. If people mention (Or just Dany) that she/they never saw the body of her miscarried child, then that works as a literary device. But if it happens and is never mentioned again, then the same doesn't apply. If the swap happened, the master of whisperers with friends across the narrow sea would be the one. Note that every exile goes to Essos as far as we know, it is safest there. In Fire and Blood we are told about many occasions, and even Ned tells Cersei to go east before Robert comes back. Oberyn says you raped her, you killed her children... Children is plural, but he probably heard stories of people saying he did it, he just didn't care to respond before. edit: One final thing about Gregor. Varys (tittering) say his birds (or whatever) told him Elia screamed out a name before she died. She screamed out the name of her killer (I presume). Tyrion goes onto say everyone knows it was Gregor, and Varys just goes along with whatever Tyrion said. But he never says himself who that name is, who killed her and her child. Now I think its wildly convenient for Varys plans to work out as well as they did, the boy being unrecognizable. Something is wrong with this picture of events, but I haven't figured out what yet. It does if he is trying to live up to his parent's legacy, another reason why he doesn't take another identity from a dead person. "His is the song of ice and fire", white and red. Was Doran sickly? Yes. But underneath his blood boiled with red hot rage. He is no different from his brother in that sense. We are told Dornish people have a fiery temper, even those who appear meek. I haven't seen it mentioned as a problem in the books, or the world of westeros. How long does a dye last in Westeros? Though glamour is also an option in these cases of aesthetic change. Agreed. He doesn't seem very tricky when he is begging "a boy" to free him from a cart. He tells Arya to come with him across the narrow sea, otherwise he would go east, or west to the iron islands (Balon contract), and then to oldtown. The wall doesn't factor in, and if it did we would be given a hint in Jon's chapters. A single person can sneak by, especially one who can change faces, Moat Cailin is more impenetrable for an army. I don't see what difficulties he would encounter going north that would require him to get himself locked up in a place he can't escape. The fires came pretty close to killing him, and remember Gendry and the others would have left them to die if it weren't for Arya. The Alchemist and Pate are different characters from Jaqen. But he takes both of their identities. Niether Pate nor the Alchemist were secret princes in disguise, but Jaqen is. And he is the one to take their identities. So we have two people over the course of one prologue who are given the allusion of a prince in disguise, both of whom have their identities taken. Pate himself is not a prince in disguise of course. "His hands" His is gendered. And Valonqar is translated into the common tongue as "little brother". Not "little sibling" or "little sister". Do we know how long its been since the prologue? And again he probably hasn't figured out how to crack and egg, and there are many mystics in Old town (Leyton, Marwyn, etc.) that he would probably hope to learn from. Euron is coming, and there are more tools at his disposal in the citadel. There are a good many reasons to stay, and I wouldn't say the most secretive books in all the citadel would be easy to get even with a key. Remember this is the same guy that got locked in a wagon with no hope of escape. Sumerhall just means cracking a dragon egg open. As a literary device in Westeros, not as well. Royalty in exile go across the narrow sea (Bittersteel, Dany, etc.) There are cases it could happen, but Essos is the most likely candidate. And again, the literary device of the mysterious stranger who returns to westeros after this many years is pretty well established. I don't, but I can speculate based off of what I see and read. "Will you make a song for him?" What type of question is that? Rhaegar dismisses her and says he already has a song. Now think of it like this "Will you make a song for him", 'like you did for her' Aegon symbolizes their relationship, he is their child. 'Will you make a song about us'? Then of course he goes to the windowsill, looks away from her, and starts strumming sad music. That example has a scene carved on the door in ebony and weirwood, not the doors entirely. Regardless for me the symbolism is pretty obvious. One is a door about a place Ned sees, and the other is in a vision where a girl's dragon goes to devour in the house of the undying. And I think ebony and weirwood together is symbolic no matter where its placed, including in this scene. Arya is, as I've said to believe, the third head of the dragon. The other is a mystery head, and the other is the reborn head (I think). I say the characters will be connected in the long term, which makes him more than just an agent of the facelessmen.
  4. Well there are two types of evidence: The type that is told to us, and the type figured out through literary device. Here is an example of what I mean: In a story (say a murder mystery) that emphasizes another killer (like the black dahlia) who has never been caught, there is a good chance the two murders are connected. Not through physical evidence, but based on what the story teller shows us/highlights for us. So you see since book 1 there has been a big deal that the baby Aegon (unlike his sister) was not recognized. This is repeated again and again whenever he is brought up. In real life that isn't evidence, but in a story that is an author clueing us in to his intentions. If nothing comes of it, we call this a red herring. But it is still part of the text, and what I consider evidence. Before YG we have been told that Aegon VI did not have his corpse recognized. We are told Rhaegar thought him to be PHWP, we are shown a vision regarding him. Then we have the concept of a baby swap introduced to us with Jon. You see Gilly and Dalla have nothing to do with Elia and whoever else was in KL at the time, but authors use plot points to suggest certain things. So besides YG (which also introduces the idea to us), we have a motif of an unidentified child, the three heads of the dragon, the Valonqar (yes, I know that's debatable, but still), etc. It suggests to us he may still be alive, even though in the real world none of that applies as evidence. Same as above. I have no clue, but its worth mentioning. Let me use another example: I was reading an Agitha Christie book once. Now the telling of this story harped on how the victim had cried out a screech that shocked everyone in the house. Say it once and it means nothing, but repeat it over and over again, readers become suspicious. 'Is the author telling us something'? A loud, hollow screech. Now if I was a real detective in a real house with a real murder, I would not pursue this line of investigation. The man is dead I think, so he screamed before he was killed. But in a story something that is given specified language and repeated many times is a literary device. This device could turn out to be a red herring, or nothing at all. But its worth considering. If Westeros was real, I'd not think twice on this subject. But I noted three times in the books were Gregor is said to not have admitted to the crime, and for Tywin not to have asked him. It could mean nothing, but I note it anyways. Ok Sometimes colors need to be distinct. Elia burned hotter than the sun, or Dornish passion is red hot. Think of it as a clever placed image: He is called the song of ice and fire by his father. He has white hair for ice, and red hair for fire. And the two halves have a secondary meaning, white for Targaryens, Red for Dorne. The chances of it being an idle fashion choice are more likely in real life than in literature where all the characters are crafted by one person. That's true. But I think the line of discussion was about how Jaqen was different from the typical criminal/ Rorge and Biter. Also, we don't know what crime, if any, he committed. I don't deny he is violent, but their are different types of violence. He is not like Biter or Rorge. He got caught in a fire, he needed someone to save him. He does not go to the wall at any point. Whatever was happening there was not part of his plan. And Varys is smart, if he has a faceless man in his cells he would no. I was just observing that it seems the Maesters/ Archmaesters didn't like or trust Pate. That deep down, they knew who he was better than he did, a thief. Doesn't mean much, I just wrote that down as one of my observations. We have (I think) two given outside parallels: 1 for the Alchemist, and 1 for Pate. The Alchemist is compared to Strider from LOTR, and Pate is compared to the pig boy from Swineherd. Both these literary characters are princes in disguise. Both of their identities are taken from the man we meet in Harrenhall, in the black cells. I wrote about this above, there was reason to believe he was alive before ADWD (when YG was introduced). More reasons than Arthur Dayne, that's for sure. When an Author builds up a character as being important, and having died under suspicious circumstances, readers are suggested that he is alive. That does not make it so, but it is how the author portrays it. Beautiful is not gendered, people just assume it is. However "brother", "his hands", both the noun and pronoun are gendered suggesting a male. He hasn't got the book yet (as he just obtained the keys from Pate). As for why he hasn't left when Sam shows up, there are plenty of reasons. Perhaps he faced more obstacles, perhaps he has nowhere else to go and figures Oldtown (with his disguise) works as a good enough place to try and open a dragon egg, or many other things. As for Aegon: Lets go over this: He wants a repeat of Summerhall, so far no character has attempted that (besides Rhaegar, before he died). But he is also the character who takes to identities given the symbolism of a prince in disguise. He was in Harrenhall, and the black cell. And here is the part that goes to your earlier question: We don't know who he is. 'Jaqen' is just a false name, as is the alchemist, Pate, etc. So when you say anyone could secretly be Aegon, given the right age, I don't agree. Say Loras was secretly Aegon, but he is a known person, raised by a family in Westeros. But we don't know where Jaqen is from (besides that he came from the HOBAW, we don't know his origins). Say there is a story of a missing girl in your town. She was disappeared as a child. Then one day a mysterious stranger comes to town, same age as the girl would be. There is a closer match between that, and saying the neighbor you grew up with (who is also that girl's age) is secretly the same person. Regardless we know Aegon ends at some point, then a mysterious stranger comes to Westeros fitting his description, trying at the same goal as Aegon's supposed father. Well there is a lot of subtlety in these scenes, especially the visions. Look at the way events play out. Elia is carrying for their child, he looks away from her and says 'but I need one more' Then he goes to the windowsill and starts playing sad music on his harp, the same we are told that made Lyanna weep. Elia knows he rewarded Lyanna over her, so thinking on that music would make her ask the question. Not everything need be stated to be understood, or rationalized. I think (for me at least) it pretty clearly is. Them being bonded together? The third head is a product of the other two. She has ties to one of Rhaegar's son (Jon), and the other she is tied to would be the other dragon head (Aegon VI). And remember she takes a gift from both of them, needle and the coin. Not any food, dead apples, wormed apples. Look at the arrows Alleras shoots: He misses one, he cores the other, and the last is a wormed apple. They are discussing the three heads of the dragon, Alleras says this out of the bloom, "the dragon has three heads" while he is shooting the apples. Each symbolize a different head, Arya is the last head. I don't think the symbolism to dragon's means Jaqen. I think it is symbolizing Drogon, the walls of black fire. That is the second dance with dragons. What I mean is Jaqen and Arya will be together when it happens. And she is bonded to one of Rhaegar's son, and Jaqen makes the other son. It ties her to him, just like she is tied to Jon. That does mean something relative to the three heads of the dragon. No, but I don't have anything better to argue with for now. If I do I'll come back and say more. I'm still organizing my thoughts.
  5. I'm just going to answer this because I didn't understand last time. I was taking from GRRM on his not a blog post. He comments on the lack of racial diversity: Speaking of Valyria... right from the start I wanted the Targaryens, and by extension the Valryians from whom they were descended, to be a race apart, with distinctive features that set them apart from the rest of Westeros, and helped explain their obsession with the purity of their blood. To do this, I made a conventional 'high fantasy' choice, and gave them silver-gold hair, purple and violet eyes, fine chiseled aristocratic features. That worked well enough, at least in the books (on the show, less so). https://grrm.livejournal.com/326474.html?thread=17886026#t17886026
  6. Varys claims that YG is Aegon, so he does claim that he swapped the babies. Of course he could be lying about both those things, but that is his claim. My point is only that no one asked him before. Tywin and Tyrion have this discussion, everyone just assumes it was him. I'm not saying they are wrong, but the books highlighted this point so I thought it worth bringing up. It is what it is, I just put it their in the number. Darkstar has a lock of hair that is different, but I don't know of any biological example where hair is different split straight through the middle. In perpetuity. I just meant appearance. Ted Bundy didn't look like a crazed serial killer. Charles Manson looks more the part (I don't think he actual killed anyone, but whatever, you get the point). That is why I put committed a crime on purpose. He wanted to get caught Personally I don't buy it, elsewise he wouldn't be in the cage trying to get out. I was thinking about Maester Gormon. The other two didn't like him either: "Maester Gormon had suspected Pate of breaking it, but that wasn’t true" (the chest in Walgrave's chambers). Its more about the nightingale in his chapter compared to rosey. You have a pig boy who values the sweetness of the nightingale's music and Rosey. I see the parallel but you don't have to agree, that is fine. I don't think YG knows either way. I think Aegon VI is alive (pretty much since the Valonqar theory), but the traded the false one for the real one so to speak. Either way YG has no clue. I think there is. Personally (for me) I see the discussion about a secret locked away book, and the subject being brought up in AFFC meaning he is looking for that same thing. And with Euron's dragon egg, it fits together. Of course you don't have to agree, it's just where I'm at right now. I don't agree. As I hope I've described, the alchemist, the man in Harrenhall, and the search for a dragon. We know have Pate looking wondering if a girl (of fifteen) is worth a dragon. He is also, like the swineherd, a symbolical representation of a hidden prince (same as I believe the alchemist is). So he asks him for the deal, and there discussion plays out much like he is Rhaegar. The latter wanted the girl for the prophecy, the three heads of the dragon. The coin with a three headed dragon. So he wonders, is she worth it? Do you want her? I believe that the vision would have shown us this as well. Either way if they did marry (Lyanna and Rhaegar), like I believe, this goes back to the events in Harrenhall. The house of the undying twists and turns things. The wolf head on the throne is not the red wedding, it is a depiction of the red wedding. Swirling, twisting, etc. give the image of a dream sequence where things are blurred together. Its a reference to the trios, or the three heads of the great Shepherd Arya finds in Braavos. Notice one thing though: She eats the worm/rotten apple. When she meets the kindly man she eats the worm from his face (or tries to). He is surprised, and this is only the second time were Arya devouring worms/apples has been mentioned. It also happens in ASOS. I think Arya is the devourer, the third head, but that is just my opinion. I think the dragon referenced her is most likely drogon. Its an image of what will happen during the second dance with dragons (burning, fire, death). But I also think the connection between Jaqen and Arya will be there when it happens. They will be together at that moment. Of course this is my opinion, but I think she will call out to him when the dragons battle, but she doesn't know his true name yet. Personally that is what I get from it. "For whom, she could not say." Of course it works like the above too, I think that's where multiple meanings come in. There is a lot referenced in that quote, but I'm guessing you mean the end. What I take this as, is that they will meet again. If Jaqen was just a fake mask, he himself would have no connection to Arya. But he does, and they will meet again. Yeah, either way its a wink and a nod, or a joke if you will. But of course I've said what I believe on this matter. Anyways, I really enjoyed writing that post. I think I'll reference it to anyone who cares, but it pretty much sums up everything I think on the subject.
  7. One quick thing about this. He is described as having "slender, fine features" while GRRM said Targaryens have "fine chiseled faces" I searched up the definition, and the latter means a clear bone structure, very easy to see. It streamed down across his shoulders, red and white and shiny, and Arya heard the girls giggling to each other in admiration. His hair is white, but also described as shining much of the time. Also keep in mind Targaryens have different hues to the white of their hair. He is constantly compared to the Sphinx, or Hugor Hill. He makes up names for the likes of Biter, and made up the Lorathi background (he keeps saying I am from the free city of Lorath) It is close to braavos, but he never lived there himself. This is the same logic Tyrion used when he took up the identity of Hugor Hill. The Sphinx (Alleras) who is in disguise also smiles all the time like Jaqen. Bet here were are told it is because he (she) knows a jib that no one else knows. The idea is the same, someone makes up a fake identity, a fake name, and goes around being that person. Jaqen's accent, on a second read through, breaks at multiple times. He is not so good at keeping it up. Wearing someone's face does two things: 1. It makes you that person 2. It is not a created identity, it is someone else
  8. Let's establish what we do know about 'Jaqen'. Let's establish what we do know about Aegon VI 1. He was in the black cells for some duration of time 1. He is Rhaegar's oldest son 2. He could not escape (otherwise he would not look to Arya for help). 2. He was a year old when the rebellion started 3. He has a coin from the faceless man 3. He is Elia's son 4. He can assassinate people fairly well 4. He has white hair like his father 5. Rorge and Biter are afraid of him 5. Varys is the master of whispers at this time 6. He is not at the house of black and white when Arya arrives 6. Varys claims to have taken him away at the start of the war 7. The kindly man claims to not know who he is 7. Rhaegar called him the prince who was promised / song of ice and fire 8. He is the alchemist 8. The baby is said to have been killed during the sack 8. The alchemist has killed at least one person by showing his face 9. Gregor only admits to the crime during single combat with Oberyn 9. The women in Harrenhall are attracted to him 10. Rhaenys is his older sister 10. Two hair colors has not been shown to be genetic trait in ASOIAF 11. No one could identify the corpse 11. His accent breaks, therefore his accent is fake 12. He was the sixth in his name 12. He is not Lorathi 13. In book 2 he has an iron coin. In book 4 he has a gold coin 14. He has "promises to keep" 15. Arya asks him to stay/he offers to take her across the narrow sea Now let's look at our third character, Pate. Pate is killed by the alchemist, and has his identity stolen from him. 1. He is a student at the citadel 2. He is a pig boy 3. He wants a golden dragon 4. He steals Walgrave's key 5. He wants a fifteen year old maiden named Rosey 6. He is killed by some poison 7. He is from the Westerlands 8. He is eighteen years old. More on him later. There are two character relevant to both 'Jaqen' and 'Aegon'. His name is Varys. Varys is Rugen (it is confirmed to us in book 4, but the discerning eye could figure it out by book 1). Rugen is the undergaelor of the black cells. Rugen knows who occupies his cells and why. Varys is from Essos. He knows the people in the cell. In book one there are three people (minus Ned): Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen Two of them are violent beings. One of them is a handsome clean individual. According to Yoren or Arya, whoever is in the black cell "must have done a very bad thing". So he had him locked up for one of two reasons 1. Jaqen committed a great crime (purposefully or otherwise). 2. Or Rugen wanted him in their for his own reasons. Either way Varys knew. Lets look at number 13: This man called 'Jaqen' had an iron coin he gave to Arya. Then he had a gold coin he gave to Pate. In the prologue of AFFC he says: “An alchemist. I can change iron into gold.” The Nightingale harps: "gold for iron, gold for iron, gold for iron" Now in Braavos (where the faceless men are from) the most beautiful woman is known as the Nightingale AFFC: "To Sam she said, “If they ask who is the most beautiful woman in the world, say the Nightingale or else they’ll challenge you. Do you want to buy some clams? I sold all my oysters." Pate thinks the Nightingale makes better music than the city bells: "Though not so sweet as one small nightingale" - AFFC But his target affection is the girl Rosey: "Not half as sweet as Rosey"- AFFC Now in the classic fairy tale The Swineherd (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Swineherd) a prince disguises as a pig boy to win over an emperor's daughter. His prized processions that he offers as gifts are a Rose and a Nightingale In Pate's backstory there are two archmaesters, Ebrose and Vaellyn. Both accuse him of being a thief. In ASOIAF Arbor Gold symbolizes lies. The kindly man tells Arya wine is a lie (she will gain no truth from wine). In the prologue to AFFC the kindly old "Archmaester Ebrose will be speaking on the properties of urine" - AFFC Leo responds that “Myself, I prefer the taste of Arbor gold.”- AFFC Arbor Gold is lies, but piss water is the opposite. It "properties" are truth. Discovering the truth is the goal of the citadel: "bend your wits to learning truths a man can trust in" -Vaellyn, AFFC So we go to our fourth character, young griff. Now YG is too young to remember the sack of KL (I believe he wasn't born yet, but whatever). This is the story he is told, and the one he tells Tyrion in ADWD: "“That was not me. I told you. That was some tanner’s son from Pisswater Bend whose mother died birthing him. His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. He had other sons but had never tasted Arbor gold. Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my lady mother and carried me away.” So the pisswater boy was traded for arbor gold. The truth was traded for lies. The true prince was traded for the false prince. Now we first have to determine that YG is a fake. I have offered up his age, and also the fact that he took no interest in the items in the chest. But I guess you will need more. There is of course ancillary evidence about a mummers dragon, and the black dragon in the crossroads inn rusting red (Blackfyre disguised as a Targaryen). There is also the fact that the golden company supports his claim. But none of this proves he is a fake. But now Camilo, you are going to have to excuse me. I will enter the realm of speculation: *** WARNING *** Ok... If you want to stop reading here its fine, I will mark the part were speculation territory ends. If in fact he is not the real Aegon, then the baby swap should not have happened. I take issue with this claim. Because the story of a child swap still happened relative to YG. The true heir (the pisswater boy) was replaced by the false heir (the arbor gold). Lies for truth. Even if he was not Aegon VI, he was swapped at some point with another person. *** WARNING END *** Ok we're done with that. Now back to Pate. He meets the alchemist twice. He is, like in the Swineherd, a false prince (not really, just thematically). Pate claims "He would have stood a better chance of hatching a real dragon than saving up enough coin to make a golden one." -AFFC Leo asks Pate: “Do you think she’s truly worth a dragon?" -AFFC. Dragons in ASOIAF symbolize a royal family in westeros. Is the girl (fifteen year old maiden) worth a dragon? He meets the alchemist a second time, and Pate asks: “Do you have my dragon?” he asked the alchemist"- AFFC They go down an ally and Pate repeats: “I want my dragon.”- AFFC He wonders what the alchemist wants the keys for, "“Is it some book you want?” Some of the old Valyrian scrolls down in the locked vaults were said to be the only surviving copies in the world." This book in ADWD is revealed (by Tyrion) to be about real dragons. "And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel." -ADWD So lets look at Pate's story from the start to finish (as Regards the alchemist, or Jaqen H'ghar). "On one side was a three-headed dragon, on the other the head of some dead king. Gold for iron, Pate remembered, you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her? “I am no thief,” he had told the man who called himself the alchemist" - AFFC So we have Pate, a pig boy, who wants a dragon for a girl, or thinks the girl is worth a dragon. This girl is fifteen years old and a maiden. She is called Rosey, twice as sweet as the nightingale. The nightingale sings music. He is the pig boy like from the swineherd. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lets look at what we do know. (Correct me if I am wrong). Rhaegar played the harp for Lyanna in Harrenhall, and she wept. Elia knows this. "Will you make a song for him" (She is talking about Aegon). He says Aegon already has one, he looks away and says "There must be one more" and he drums his harp with "Sweet sadness". This is what he did with Lyanna, that is who he is thinking of. He does not look at his wife when he speaks. She knows. "The dragon has three heads". This is what Alleras says in AFFC: "“The dragon has three heads,” he announced in his soft Dornish drawl." The gold coin Pate wants has "On one side was a three-headed dragon". Rhaegar wants the three heads of the dragon, he wants needs a third child. This is Barristan Selmy on Elia: "It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother’s heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."- ASOS That's a problem. Cersei isn't a reliable source for anything, but this quote is useful: "It must have been the madness that led Aerys to refuse Lord Tywin's daughter and take his son instead, whilst marrying his own son to a feeble Dornish princess with black eyes and a flat chest"- Cersei Feeble is subjective, but flat chest, among her delicate health, did not make her a good candidate for child baring, especially in the days before penicillin. At the time of this vision Aegon is a newborn. "a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed." - ACOK So she was in no position for a third pregnancy. The vision ends there, but there is more (we will get to that). Back to Pate. So we have pig boy, looking for the sweetness of Rosey, twice the nightingale. He wants a dragon (again the chapter deliberately uses this language) with three heads. He is offered the dragon (first meeting). "you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her?" Connect that line to the one Rhaegar and Elia were speaking of. He speaks of the need for a third child, then drums the sad song that made Lyanna weep (it doesn't have to be the exact same song, the point is he is making sad music with his harp). So Elia asks him: "you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her?" To which Pate responds: “I am no thief,” Which is what Rhaegar says as well in this situation. The three headed dragon, they both want the fifteen year old maiden. In the end, at their second meeting, Pate concedes that he is indeed a thief. He will take Rosey now. But that decision kills him, much like it does Rhaegar. But what does this have to do with Alchemist? Well lets go back to the house of the undying. Dany leaves that room and comes upon Pyat Pree. He attempts to trick her so she goes the wrong direction. Instead she goes right. "She walked away from him, to the door on the right. “No,” Pyat screeched. “No, to me, come to me, to meeeeeee.” His face crumbled inward, changing to something pale and wormlike." -ACOK She has a vision of her brother and nephew, and now she finds another door (at last): "Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening." This is Arya when first coming upon the house of black and white: "At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony. The look of it reminded her somehow of the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell. The doors are watching me, she thought. She pushed upon both doors at once with the flat of her gloved hands, but neither one would budge. Locked and barred. “Let me in, you stupid,” she said. “I crossed the narrow sea.” She made a fist and pounded. “Jaqen told me to come. I have the iron coin.” She pulled it from her pouch and held it up. “See? Valar morghulis.” The door of black and white appears to her, after she has the vision of Aegon and Rhaegar and Elia. It leads her outside the house of the undying, away from the warlock Pyat Pree. When she is in trouble "She took a step forward. But then Drogon leapt from her shoulder. He flew to the top of the ebony-and-weirwood door, perched there, and began to bite at the carved wood." -ACOK Drogon, the dragon is devouring the door of black and white. He flies back to her later. The dragon at the door of the facelessmen. The dragon, the third head consuming the first. In Arya's chapter in a ADWD, she is told about the Great Shepherd and the three heads of the trios: “That is the house of the Great Shepherd. Threeheaded Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don’t know what the middle head’s supposed to do." - ADWD So what about Jaqen? Lets look at #2 on our list. In ACOK, Yoren's party is come upon by Lannister men under the Gods eye. This is also where Rhaegar 'kidnaps' (depending on what you choose to believe) Lyanna. Now Arya has the chance to save three people locked in a cage. Yoren was told to keep them safely locked away because they are very dangerous. Rugen is the person who puts them in the cell, so in the end he is the deciding factor their. No one is suppose to go talk to these three, but as the entire place is burning down, Arya throws them an axe and saves them. She kills a man that gets in her way. This is the moment she saves them: "And then a wheel was looming over her. The wagon jumped and moved a half foot when Biter threw himself against his chains again. Jaqen saw her, but it was too hard to breathe, let alone talk. She threw the axe into the wagon. Rorge caught it and lifted it over his head, rivers of sooty sweat pouring down his noseless face. Arya was running, coughing. She heard the steel crash through the old wood, and again, again. An instant later came a crack as loud as thunder, and the bottom of the wagon came ripping loose in an explosion of splinters." Before that, when Jaqen is calling out to Arry, he says this: "“Boy!” called Jaqen H’ghar. “Sweet boy!” Sweet. He wants her to save them. "Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses. She moved her belt around so Needle would not be in her way, and began to crawl. A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound, like the roar of some monstrous beast, and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell. Arya held her breath and kissed the mud on the floor of the tunnel and cried. For whom, she could not say." This is the fire that is destroying everything at this point. "The fire beat at her back with hot red wings" " Smoke was pouring out the open door like a writhing black snake" So the fires around Jaqen, Biter, and Rorge have three personifications. It roars like a monstrous beast It beats air with hot red wings And it moves like a black snake" A snake is a reptile. We have a reptile, with wings, that roars like a monstrous beast. That is the description of a dragon, a black dragon I think. Arya then goes to her knees, and calls out "For whom, she could not say." The dragon, the burning, the death. A primary goal that GRRM has stated is a second dance with dragons. This is a great allusion to that, but we have Arya calling out to someone whose name she does not know, someone she will yet be bonded to, the person staring right at her through the smoke and glaze. So then we go to the second time she sees him. He is on horseback, returning across the draw bridge with Amory Lorch at the head. Arya at this point is only a grey mouse girl working in the stables and yard. The company on horseback have entered the castle grounds. "Then she saw the three near the end of the column. Rorge had donned a black half-helm with a broad iron nasal that made it hard to see that he did not have a nose. Biter rode ponderously beside him on a destrier that looked ready to collapse under his weight. Half-healed burns covered his body, making him even more hideous than before. But Jaqen H’ghar still smiled. His garb was still ragged and filthy, but he had found time to wash and brush his hair. It streamed down across his shoulders, red and white and shiny, and Arya heard the girls giggling to each other in admiration." Unlike the other two he is well made, and smiling atop his horse as the other women giggle. "Only Jaqen H’ghar so much as glanced in her direction, and his eyes passed right over her. He does not know me, she thought. Arry was a fierce little boy with a sword, and I’m just a grey mouse girl with a pail." He remembers her, but from his position right now he only looks down on her. He is shining atop a horse and has the attention of everyone, Arry is "just a grey mouse girl with a pail" Remember the story of the swineherd, the royal princess ignores the prince, for he is beneath her. This same type of behavior is mimicked here. Now we go to number 7: "He is the song of ice and fire." He has white hair for ice, and red for fire. It is his song. He lives to fulfill the prophecy. When he parts ways with Arya, he does not tell her he himself is no one. He still knows and remebers her: “As well ask what good is life, what good is death? If the day comes when you would find me again, give that coin to any man from Braavos, and say these words to him—valar morghulis.” She does go, and that is what she asks: The kindly man tells her: Arya: “I only came to find Jaqen H’ghar.” Kindly Man “I do not know this name.” Afterwards she shows him the coin, and he know her name. She lies but he is looking for an answer. He has heard of Arya of house stark, and the coin told him what he needed to know. Unless you assume he is a mind reader which is giving the kindly man too much credit. "The priest studied the coin, though he made no move to touch it. The waif with the big eyes was looking at it too. Finally, the cowled man said, “Tell me your name, child.” - AFFC He knows of this man, as does the waif. So we have a meeting between the two in the gods eye, she saves him, he goes onto help the girl, they go their separate ways. Arya goes to the home of Jaqen H'ghar but finds him absent. He is in Oldtown, he is looking for a book on dragons. Now with Pate we see him at the Quill and Tankard, an inn or tavern. The Alchemist is garbed in a brown cloak, watching Pate. He waits for them to be along before approaching him. Remember the parallel I made of LOTR? Strider was watching the main companions in a dark corner, in a cloak, in the Prancing Pony? Remember how I said both go by false names, Strider and the Alchemist, while both are secret heirs, Aragorn II and Aegon VI? Well there is one more thing. Pate asks him why he did not approach him earlier, he says: "“You were with your friends. It was not my wish to intrude upon your fellowship.” The alchemist wore a hooded traveler’s cloak, brown and nondescript." The group could hardly be called united, but there is your wink and your nod. My Post is done. It got out of hand, I've been working on it for four hours. Probably because I enjoyed looking through these PDFs for textual evidence of the sort. It may not be what you're looking for, but I did get carried away probably.
  9. I don't know what else to say here. Did they join together under the heart tree, was it consensual, did they love each other? These have been questions since the first book. If you are saying they never bonded in matrimony of some kind, then perhaps you should go back and think this true. They married in the show, and people have speculated about this for some 24 years. If you're making an exception when dealing with me, I don't know what to say. If you're trying to make me look like an idiot, then that is your problem. I'm making a connection based on what I read, but going down this path doesn't help anyone. How is this relevant. I beg of you to tell me. We can make observations based on clues. We can speak about conclusions and think the series through. For some reason yourself as well as others wish to argue that without conformation there is no point trying to figure out what happened. Do you wish for me to give you an example? Ok: When I look at Harrenhall, where do we know that name from? Harren the black? From what I read we were constantly told about the tourney, and lyanna, and rhaegar. That is what most people associate it with. Then we have Arya, the first character to appear their. She is unlike her siblings. She has brown hair, grey eyes, wild hair, and is nicknamed horseface Arya. You can say that is not evidence for anything, but I can because I am discussing this topic. Is it insane, or uncalled for? If that is path you want to go down, then be my guess. But don't ridicule or insult me. Is it insane when I compare Gendry to Robert, or how he is paired (not romantically, these people are kids) together with Arya on arrival to Harrenhall. Is it insane to notice the distaste one man has for the other? Or that a new comer, with white hair (half dyed red for Elia as I've said before) comes before her, and they even go so far as having a scene where one pledges to another under the heart tree? Or that both Rhaegar and his counterpart gift the girl, one with a coin, the other with a crown. Am I insane, or are you gaslighting me when you see Tywin as a parallel to this relationship or that any and everyone else could apply? Or when you say lord hunter, and Jon Arryn, and Brandon Stark should be there as well when the story has been about one girl and her two lovers. You have a right to disagree with me, but I am surprised to see you show me none of the respect you do others on this form. I don't demand it, if I say something stupid then I should be called out on it. Saying their is no evidence because anyone could fit a certain description is you being dishonest. What does this mean? I expand upon the character's imagery and motivations. What is it that you want for it to be worth discussing? But going down a tirade on how anyone could be anyone is something I doubt you speak of towards other people. Saying things like the alchemist could be Robb or Loras shows me that you are trying to ridicule the subject rather than engage it. You also just compared the word choice of "Valonqar" over "little brother" (something the book emphasizes, even going so far as changing "the" to "yours" in Cersei's thought process) to some youtuber called trump El Presidente. How are you being serious with me, unless you think this is a hysterical joke that you're playing? No, you really can't. We have ample evidence that the alchemist is the man from Harrenhall. We also have ample evidence that he is looking for a book on dragons, and that he has an egg for himself. In fact a significant part of the fandom already debate why he has an egg, or what he wants to do with it. Yet you single me out for ridicule because for some reason I am a special type of idiot in your mind who makes stuff up. In Tyrion's chapter in the next book he deliberately speaks about a book on dragons locked away in the citadel. Is that more "gratuity" on GRRM's part, would he tell me to f*** off? Or was that just your way to tell me to do so but you didn't want to say it yourself? If Loras is a fake than anyone could be a fake. That is the logic you are using. But you know its insane, you just want to attack me for some bizzare reason by claiming a false comparison. Saying someone is Aegon VI (or Ashara Dayne for that matter) is far away from saying anyone could be anyone. Knowing who the quantities of which we speak (the Alchemist) does change the discussion. But you keep bringing up these false parallels to make what I say sound irrelevant or insane. You don't have to agree with me, but you also don't have to be dishonest. And I trust you're smart enough to figure out why such comparisons don't work. Many people have met Ashara Dayne, many people have met Wenda the white fawn. But people speculate on their true identity. No one does so for two characters active at the same time. Like Sweetrobin and Jeyne Poole. That was an actual example you gave to try and argue against me discussing someone's true identity. Do you know how insulting that is to me? Or are you just trying to be mean spirited because you don't like what I say? Sure there is. When their is ample discussion of a baby swap, but one person doesn't fit the description, questions arise. Also we have every reason to believe YG was a late addition, and even if not, GRRM probably didn't have a good idea who this character was early one. Talking about the baby swap comparison's with Jon, the prophecy of Aegon VI at the house of the undying, the repeated motif of a baby's head being unrecognizable. These are common literary devices. Could they be a red herring? Of course, but there were reasons to believe Aegon was alive before YG, and there would still be had he not come onto the series. A lie is saying something when you know its not true. Rather than just say "you're wrong", you accuse me of being a liar. I apologize however. I just realized ACOK has an online PDF so I don't need the book: https://www.nothuman.net/images/files/discussion/2/bc2d525a2ac485f688a1f2dcb7740432.pdf "But Jaqen H’ghar still smiled. His garb was still ragged and filthy, but he had found time to wash and brush his hair. It streamed down across his shoulders, red and white and shiny, and Arya heard the girls giggling to each other in admiration." Shining white is an allusion to silver. But there is more in that chapter as well, his mannerism is not fit for a ragged peasant. There is a discussion about the prince and the pauper of which the boy in rags still had an aristocratic manner. He cleans himself (frequently), he is respectful with his food, he smiles and charms others. There was more about a chiseled face and aristocratic features when I was discussing this elsewhere, but apparently its not in the books. So again I apologize. Again with this comparison. Many people are many things, many people are kind, and soft, and cruel, and regal, and everything in between. That doesn't mean anything. We are discussing a specific character with specific parallels. Disagree all you want, but stop this tangent about Tywin or Robb being the alchemist, or Jeyne and Sweetrobin liking the same things. And besides, from what I remember Robert Arryn pretends to like whatever Sansa likes. One of these characters doesn't need to pretend to like something for they are not (at this point) claiming their identity. It happens naturally because that is who they are. Their kids, they also don't have a tourney. Its the role the characters play in relationship to each other. But if you can't see what I mean, then I don't have much else to say. We have to look at where he would be. Not Asshai, or north of the wall, but in Essos, where the baby swap happened. If he moved to either of these places, then that would be years off and the character would need to be followed from one place to the other. What exactly? And you didn't respond. No its not, because Robb is irrelevant to this chapter. Saying he stole his face means he could steal anyone's face. (who is dead) I had thought the faceless men take from who they kill, but you expand that to mean anyone. Now the alchemist, rather than being a specific character introduced to us from Harrenhall, is whoever and whatever we want him to be. That is, again, a false equivalency. I am discussing a specific character who went from the blackcells in KL, to the citadel in Oldtown over the course of three novels. He writes plenty about food, he also has plenty of symbolism, especially clues for people to pick up. Things matter, and even more things are hidden in sight so that people don't unravel a mystery too early. Or is this going to be another El Presidente/Valonqar thing. I've already discussed how Pate has parallel's to Jaqen and Rhaegar. The dragon, wanting the girl (fifteen year old maid), and most importantly, his identity is taken by the man from harrenhall (not Robb Stark). We are also introduced to an age (15+3=18) which fits Arya's description. The man was older than her, but not enough that she would compare him to a paternal figure (like her father who was in his 30s). Again, words have specific meanings when associated with specific people. Sansa is beautiful, that doesn't mean anything as regards to Rhaegar or his children. I have, but you are ignoring it. He dyed (yes, people dye their hair, it is not naturally two colors) red for his mother Elia (House Martell's sigil is the sun, like fire, like the red god). Again with calling me a liar. How does this promote a healthy discussion? Again you specifically say using the word Valonqar instead of little brother doesn't mean something. Many people, including myself disagree. But you say it doesn't mean anything (in a book where a prophecy is carefully worded) because you switch languages all the time. I can't begin to tell you how condescending and dishonest you're being. Get a grip "Jaqen is dead, as dead as Arry". Arya also fakes her identity. He came to westeros to reclaim his own, why would he change his face for that. Much like the Sphinx (who also bathes and grabs the attention of women) or Hugor Hill (Tyrion) people in the series come up with fake identities. "“Some men have many names. Weasel. Arry. Arya.” He is not embodying some false face, as he would take on their entire identity if he did. He came to Westeros to reclaim his title, changing names just helps keep people hidden in plain sight. Tyrion wants casterly rock, but he changes his name for a time to help himself achieve that goal. Again with the casual insults. This is how the book writes the scene: He has sworn. “Even if I named the king . . .” “Speak the name, and death will come. On the morrow, at the turn of the moon, a year from this day, it will come. A man does not fly like a bird, but one foot moves and then another and one day a man is there, and a king dies.” He knelt beside her, so they were faceto-face, “A girl whispers if she fears to speak aloud. Whisper it now. Is it Joffrey?” Arya put her lips to his ear. “It’s Jaqen H’ghar.” Even in the burning barn, with walls of flame towering all around and him in chains, he had not seemed so distraught as he did now. “A girl . . . she makes a jest.” It's a peculiar wording, that was also changed in the show. But it plays to the same affect. He says a girl would weep and lose a friend, but that is after this scene. YG claims to be Aegon. Anyone who does must follow a similar timeline following a baby swap. Especially given Ilyrio's chest. Oh wait, are you going to say that is gratuity as well? Are you going to tell me GRRM wants me to F**** off for discussing something, or does that apply to everyone else who makes these discussions? When Arya is sent to kill the money lender, she is told not to show her face or she would fail. They do not steal items. However if he meant to kill someone it could be possible, but overall the concept of breaking into the citadel to steal a valuable item does not fit what the kindly man established was a religious organization with no ulterior motives. And yet you are doing just that right here. You have continued to bring up the point that many characters do many things, which is to be honest irrelevant and useless. We are discussing a chapter centered around an assassination by a faceless man. The text discussing a kindly old mentor who sighs applies to the context of the characters being introduced. Again with calling me a liar. So you brought up a minor character in a discussion about a specific character to insinuate that anyone could be involved. Was his face stolen as well, same as Robb? They are not the same characters because they are not the same characters. There is a fundamental difference between what we speak. Saying something like Jeyne likes lemon cakes as does Sweetrobin (which I don't think is true besides) does not apply to discussing a mystery character hidden from view being someone else introduced to us. For example, I'm sure other people like ginger, but I'm sure those other people are not secretly Aegon VI. We have to look at who the subject matter is (at Harrenhall or elsewhere). That's fine. You see I won't insult you for your opinion. Pate's story cannot, because it has to do with alchemist, and any and all forms of symbolism I point out should be discussed. Of course not, but you can see that quiet clearly. Evidence does not have to be confirmed to be discussed or analyzed. If so most nothing could be discussed on this site. Looking at motivations (dragons), character movement, as well as their role in the plot can help figure out many truths. Just like the mysterious newcomer in Harrenhall. I have expressed above why I believe what I believe, that doesn't equate to confirmation of anything.
  10. Likely illegal, etc. ignores all the facts that Rhaegar is a Targaryen, the conqueror had two wives. Its like saying incestual marriages are not allowed, being a king, and a Targaryen, does not make one bound to some strict constitution. Regardless something happened between them at the time of the kidnapping, and they obviously had a relationship (consensual or otherwise). These are not the same parameters as saying it is all made up or anything else could be true. Yes there is. How dismissive, despite this entire discussion. You don't even claim it is unlikely, you claim there is no chance. Here is the problem: A facelessman stealing a face does not make them that person. Stealing the face of Robb (for example) does not make them Robb. They still have their own identity (as shown in Arya's chapters). Aegon VI is someone most people believe is dead. YG claims his identity. This is different from a living person who is known and active in the world. Saying Jeyne and Sweetrobin are the same person is impossible because they are two separate characters in separate parts of the world. Here let me explain it like this: Lets say there are two people. person a and person b Person a has never been seen before, person b has. In this equation (granting that said person fits the description) person b can claim person a's identity. Now if person a and b are neighbor, you cannot claim they are the same person because they are two different people. The comparison doesn't work. Robb would still be dead, stealing his face does not make the alchemist Robb. An identity, and a person are two different things. Saying you are Rhaegar and Elia's son, a person who has been believed dead, is different from saying you are this well known person who other people know of. I really don't know how else I can phrase this. Ok, you see, this helps. YG and 'Jaqen' (false name) are two different people (correct). Both of them could claim the identity of Aegon (for example) because Aegon VI is unknown. Do you see the difference between YG claiming to be Aegon VI and YG claiming to be Loras Tyrell? Those are two active people, and it cannot be true. That is the difference we are dealing with when saying something "cannot be true". Has anyone met him before? If the answer is no, then he is an identity someone can claim. He is not an active character. People would debate based on similarities, timeline, etc. But you can see the comparison with things like Loras and the Alchemist (two separate agents) being the same person is not of the same discussion length. He is, in ACOK. The word regal is used. (breath). Ok. Tywin is a person, like George Bush. Jaqen is a person, like Jackie Chan. These two people cannot be the same person. NOT because it is unlikely, but because it is a logical fallacy. I really hope you are being honest with this line of discussion. Lyanna was betrothed to Robert when she came, she was betrothed to Robert when she left. The kidnapping happened a year later. Why cut me off like that? I went on to detail how the lines fit together, now you won't engage. Did you see something you don't like? It's retrospective in that it becomes apparent after the conclusion is made, but it also reinforces the primary statement through textual evidence. Please, I would like to know your opinion, and what you think. I wouldn't have written about it otherwise. Oh god not this again. Lets forget about what I believe for a second: Jaqen could be Aegon. He could also not be. Jaqen CAN NOT be Robb. Do. You. See. The. Difference. Because of his role in the story, and the combination with Ilyrio's chest. The ginger is important otherwise it wouldn't be brought up as regards to the baby swap. It's also not a common factor among different characters. But you see, when you have a character with the proper age, physical description, and geographic disposition (he came over to westeros from Braavos) you need to consider the possibility. That is not the same thing as justifying any and every character being anyone. Lots of people can't be Aegon just from situation circumstance, including Jason Mallister. The features together are what make up the whole. That is your belief, but I have already explained my reasoning. It means something, or else it wouldn't be translated. I don't know how you can compare Maggy the frog telling a specific prophecy with Lindsay Ellis calling Trump President in a different language. But I'll give you one thing, there is a reason Lindsay did it. Whether it was because of his relationship to Hispanic or whatever, the language being spoken does not just change for a specific word without reason. But I don't think I would have to explain this. In the context of my post, it does. I've already explained this. The white is for his father Rhaegar, the red is for Elia Martell (house Martell's sigil is the sun). Young in this case puts us in the right range. The Lorathi accent is faked. In fact it breaks when Arya accidently accuses him of being a king. This happens under the heart tree. We can if we look at the timeline of events inside and out of westeros. (When Aegon was born, who took him (Varys), where he was sent, when he came back, etc.). Interestingly it is pretty common to assume the Alchemist has the dragon egg among the fanbase. Aegon himself is an identity at this point (until the truth is revealed). His goal is whatever person is claiming to be him (or nothing if he is dead). Looking to crack a dragon egg (which would prove his legitimacy) is certainly in lines with things a character believing to be the dragon heir would do (In fact Dany did do this). Going off of this we also don't know Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. Things are interpreted. That is why even most people believe the Alchemist is looking to crack a dragon egg, even if they have no clue who the alchemist is. It goes back to the keys, the locked away book, and the contract to kill Balon. Sure: You're not suppose to look into the eyes of someone you're about to kill. You're also (from what we know), not suppose to break into the citadel and steal an item (of course there could be exceptions but we have not been told of any yet). If they didn't it would make his actions even more covert/breaking the rules. Lets look at the context: 1. We know Jaqen is the alchemist. 2. We know Jaqen is a facelessman 3. We know the kindly man is some sort of mentor in the house of black and white 4. We know the alchemist is about to kill Pate and steal his identity. 5. We are told of a kindly old mentor who sighs. Now you can claim that is not who Ebrose is meant to represent, but that doesn't follow along with it could be anyone who sighs. Yes they are, in ACOK It's both, and its about Lyanna centrally (its from Arya's perspective). Her two lovers are Robert and Rhaegar, not Holwand, Brandon, or anyone else. And its not a tourney same way as the couples are not romantically engage. The pledge is a pledge to kill three people. This is again a twisted retelling. Read what I wrote above. First, Olyvar is not a book character. Second we are falling back into that trap I mentioned above. The Alchemist could be Rhaegar and Elia's son. He cannot be active characters totally separate from himself like Jon, Robb, or Loras. I don't know how else to say this. This is what I am talking about, thank you. So you see this is a perfect demonstration. Pretty Merris is an active character. It is possible for her to be Ashara (an unknown), but it is impossible for her to be Brienne. I hope we are on the same page now. Anyways that's a fine theory, but I think from most of what I read Pretty Merris, if anyone, is Wenda the white fawn. Not Ashara. There is of course more, and specifically it is because his character fits the sequence of events. Much of the other evidence is in posts like this one. I added to Pate's story, to give more context. I did so here as well, but in the previous post you cut it off. I still don't know why.
  11. It was between the old gods, not the sevens. A septon wouldn't have married them of course. The Alchemist is Jaqen. Jaqen is a false name, he is really Aegon VI. You can agree or disagree, but there is no chance he is Robb. Why? Because (besides their being no evidence) those to are alive and active at the same time. Meanwhile Aegon is missing/presumed dead. Different characters. Its the same thing with your Sweetrobin/Jeyne comparison, the two don't work. Those are two separate characters, Aegon VI (the Valonqar) is an identity. Not really, I look at his behavior in Harrenhall. He is described as regal, and he makes other women swoon. The men (like Rorge/Biter) fear and respect him. This is a parallel between Rhaegar, but in a different context. Rhaegar came as the charming prince, and he two had young men who looked up to him (Jon Connington talked about the young lords who rushed to Rhaegar's side. That includes Jaime BTW). We're talking about the events in Harrenhall. Gendry wants her to stay away from 'Jaqen', but eventually she goes to him for help. Lyanna also leaves Harrenhall with Robert, that is besides the point. I don't think the thief line is proof of anything. I only added that in on retrospect, knowing the identity of the alchemist. Same with the Aragorn parallels. I don't use either of those as evidence, I just think they are cool tidbits to point out. Again, this is being retrospective, but I'll give you more examples of why "thief" doesn't apply to just about anyone. Besides the alchemist having no clear parallels to any of these other people, we have to understand Aegon VI is an identity. Daario, Victarion, etc. are all active characters elsewhere in the world doing different things. They are not the alchemist. But lets look at some of the details: Rosey (the girl Pate wants) is a maid of fifteen (Just like Lyanna at the year of the tourney). He wants a golden dragon for the girl. He wants to take the girl. The alchemist asks him about the key, but he is thinking about the girl. He wants to take the girl. "Are you a thief" then becomes about taking the maiden. "I suppose I am". The alchemist speaks "sadly" when they part ways, and his last thoughts are of rosey. There is more symbolism of the rose, and the wine (in ASOIAF wine usually means lie, but I'm not going to get into all that). But they don't work because the alchemist is not Robb. Robb is a character we saw die. Aegon VI is an identity of who we have not met and is presumed dead. These are false equivalencies. It was specific word choice that matters. He is regal, young, beautiful, with a chiseled face (GRRM has identified that word as a marking of the Targaryen look), and he makes women "swoon". This goes along with Valonqar. Valonqar is Valyrian for little brother. Aegon VI has Valyrian blood, he is the younger brother. "Until there comes another, younger and more beautiful" (these are descriptive adjectives, not nouns). Who else is a younger and more beautiful version of Rhaegar than his son? Beautiful is important here because of the gender bias. We associate "beautiful" with female which is why when so many people read Maggy's prophecy they (mistakenly) believe the word "queen" is in it (as does Cersei). A man who fits his descriptions and is described as regal and beautiful, who is of the right age, follows the proper timeline both in geographic location, and goal (Pate wants his "dragon", Just like the alchemist wants his "dragon". The egg he won from fulfilling the contract). Well I believe he has broken many rules. He did as the alchemist, and he does looking to steal from the citadel (not the FM's MO). I don't even believe they would have taken the contract from Euron. Remember Ebrose's "sighs". The kindly man "sighs" at Arya when she rejects the path and embraces her own identity. Coming to westeros as himself with his own face is the whole point. He only changes faces after Harrenhall, after he has been locked up in the black cells, and when he leaves to return to the house of black and white. No. As I said above their are parallels regardless. He comes in Regally, and women swoon. He is tied with Arya, who has obvious symbolical similarities to Lyanna (horse girl/horseface, wild stark looks). And those parallels are evidence in of themselves. If an act is being played out, you need actors for each role. Harrenhall was a twisted retelling of the tourney. Ebrose as the kindly man is obvious, the rest is about revealing what has happened in the Alchemist's time in the first three books. Which again fits perfectly with his true identity. It's not. If it is then I apologize, but I swear I think its true. I'll get back to you once I find out where I got this. Either way five + thirteen is eighteen which is how old Aegon VI should be, or the alchemist. These are things we don't know (minus the waif). It could play out in different ways, and we would have to read to find out. My guess is he thought since Varys/Illyrio were his foster parents, they would support his claim. Now how he discovered his identity, and why the waif would tell him is different. She had her baby swapped, the one that died in Aegon's place. She was Elia's champion, and here is her son. The kindly man would not approve, but alas she felt she owed both Elia and Rhaegar. Elia because she died, and Rhaegar because she (the waif) betrayed him. According to AWOIAF (I think), the waif went to Brandon and told him that Rhaegar meant to use Lyanna for the prophecy. She set the starks against the prince, because she wanted to support Elia. She could not predict the war. If you can tell, the waif is Ashara Dayne. I wrote about this elsewhere, so I won't repost here. This is a separate discussion. There is much and more in the text. Look at the situation in the prologue. It is not about Robb, or Catelyn, or any of the other characters you have brought into the discussion. It is about the alchemist, a dragon, a fifteen year old girl, the sphinx, Jaqen, the man who was with Arya at Harrenhall. Look at the context of the discussion. And again there is more evidence, much of which I don't have because the books are not with me. I wrote more about this above.
  12. Sansa is not weak or disabled. And Sam will never be in a position of power, never.
  13. I'm not going to respond to all of this because I really need to finish an essay by the end of today and I don't want to keep sidetracking myself. I'll get back to the rest of this on the weekend or monday. But for this, I really need to say: It's a false comparison. Rhaegar does kidnap Lyanna near Harrenhall on his way north, that we know. The chances that they married under the heart tree so the son is legitimate is very different from saying Ned found Jon in an alien crash pod. Do you see how these are false equivalencies? Same thing with Rob being the parallel to Pate, or Rob being the alchemist. These things are no where near similar. Hot Pie, etc. are characters in Harrenhall but again there are three I need you to notice: Gendry, Arya, and Jaqen. Robert, Lyanna, and Rhaegar. The first two are paired together, and Gendry wants Arya to stay away from the other man. Bu Arya eventual chooses him over Gendry. Its a subversion of the typical romantic trope since you'd think those two would be paired together, but it happened much in the same way as what happened in Harrenhall. Also, Elia and Rhaegar were speaking of a third child when the vision ended: "“There must be one more...the dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded…" Then read the lines between Pate and the alchemist: "I am no thief" "Have you decided what you are?" "I suppose I am a thief". Notice he is drumming his harp, his music made Lyanna weep. He stole her heart, and now he wants to take her from Robert. "There must be one more... the dragon has three heads." Elia can't provide him a third child.
  14. So he may die at the right moment. I wish Sansa kills him, that would be a twist. But I doubt it. Honestly I want Sansa to become a villain, but it doesn't seem like where her arc is taking her.
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