butterweedstrover

Greywind? Ghost?

Wert, Martin mostly gets excited about award shows, television adaptations, and Hollywood buzz. He loves going to premieres, press events, and galas. His initial career was in television. Writing wise he has mostly been a no show since his contract with HBO. He then follows up GOT with a whole new slate of releases and posts that he feels “sorry” for people who are stuck up on Winds. Massive backlash ensues and his tone changes all the sudden to appease fans. He is very well aware of what people say else wise he wouldn’t have specific complaints about online commentary. None of this suggests genuine excitement.

I mean more so everyone has ruled out the possibility that we never see Winds. Because OF COURSE the publishers will do it. But we have to ask if the manuscript will even be a publishable state, or if the legal hurdles set up by Martin are even worth testing.

It's funny how people are super confident the book will come out eventually. George has said multiple times in case of his passing no one is to finish his series and he might as well wish an incomplete book to not be published. I'm not saying its likely, I'm saying its possible.

I was talking about YG and Jon Connington. If they weren’t part of the story before, Dany’s endpoint was planned out without them. Side note: GRRM adds a lot of nobodies to his glossary that he can later take from and turn into a fully fleshed out character.

Couldn’t the “rival” Targaryen have just been Jon? Mummer’s Dragon means the Dragon of a mummer (possession), not that the Dragon is a mummer.

Yes, and how does Drogo invading help their plan with Young Griff? The two things (Viserys/Dany and Connington/Young Griff) openly contradict each other. The blue haired boy might have crossed paths with Dany or Viserys at some point if he existed back then, but he didn't.

The plan Ilyrio and Varys had in AGOT cannot be integrated with the plan they came up with in ADWD. With Young Griff there is no need for Viserys whereas Viserys in actuality was a vital component to their original plot. In the dungeons they mention the need to delay the conflict so the Dothraki could be prepared for the eventual war. So what was their plan? Have Viserys and Drogo lose on purpose (destroying the brand name of the Targaryen sigil) or have them win only for a third claimant to come and take the throne (eviscerate their own forces). Why give something so powerful to Daenerys in that case. Even if they didn't believe the eggs would hatch they gave Dany, and by extension Viserys, a powerful tool that might mitigate any military strength of a dragonless Young Griff. Unless they were clinically braindead, this was not part of their plan. And there was no way they could (or should) have thought that a thirteen year old Dany would have become stronger after being raped incessantly, watch Viserys die, lose her own child, lose her husband, and then build up an army of slaves instead of heading west thereby giving Young Griff time to grow up and Connington time to build up his own forces. I'm sorry, but there was no way this wasn't invented until after ASOS. There is not even an inkling that such a child exists, I don't mean baby Aegon, I mean that blue haired fraud, mummers dragon or no.

I wasn't talking about Euron. Aegon VI and Young Griff are different. He did seed the idea of baby Aegon being alive, but whoever that is that doesn't have to do with the child we meet in ADWD. He is an entirely different character if only inspired by the idea of a living Aegon certainly not Aegon himself. Had George thought of this fake as part of Varys or illyrio's schemes he would have been referenced in some way, even if not by name. According to Varys in ADWD the plan was to make Young Griff king but then they raised Viserys to rule during that same time. They were literally talking about it in the dungeons and no hint of Connington or this child were given. Things had to turn out spectacularly wrong for him to be introduced in ways Varys/illyrio could not have predicted, from Viserys death to Drogo's infection to the hatching of the Dragons. Connington had zero place in any story. Ned or Robert might have mentioned him once but they never did, it was completely a decision made later in the game.

I meant Connington and Young Griff.

I think post ASOS is late in the game. There is no evidence Martin had even thought up either of these characters before then which makes there introduction seem less like a vital aspect to the overall story and more like appendages to reorient the narrative. Or maybe he just wrote in a bunch of new characters because he was tired of the old ones. Either way I don't see YG being an important part of Dany's journey.

Just a side note: the Gaiman quote is really dumb. Neil is very good at gaslighting his audience with emotionally charged statements that bulldoze over any nuance and kills the potential for discussion. He is good at tweet sized messages but otherwise the stuff he says is worthless. Read the blog post where he said "George is not your bitch" or whatever. It wasn't from some entitled fan demanding answers after years of delay, it was a very respectful question about the nuances of non-contractual obligations between readers and authors and to what extent they might emerge in a practical setting. George isn't writing a series of books with their own self-contained narrative, he is writing one sprawling novel split into different volumes with no clear beginning, middle, or end. That doesn't mean he is our bitch or we should demand he finish, he can give up. But he monetized an unfinished story people thought was going somewhere, and gaslighting consumers into thinking they are abusive for even expecting a continuation is garbage.

If Young Griff, Cersei, and Dany all sit on the throne before Bran's ascension that would constitute "many people" relative to the rest of the series. Three new regents after Tommen will be as many as there has been the entire series (Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen). Myrcella might actually rule as well if she isn't already dead. I'm not sure, and I doubt she'd survive very long anyways but it is always possible. I think what I disagree with is the order or sequence rather than the players involved. Cersei already has her trial coming up and plans to bring down the septas. I don't see how after Kevan's death she'll just slink back to the Rock. Most likely she stays, overcomes the trial, and uses Connington's attack to put herself on the throne (something she would otherwise have no legitimacy to do without children). Where the show messed up is not having Connington burn the city and replacing it with Cersei blowing up the sept herself. It makes her ascension seem dumb. But I 100% don't think the final conflict will be Dany vs. YG.

They're different post-season 4. But broad strokes it is a question of who the final combatants will be. Dorne can be very different, but if the Dornish end up losing none of that really matters for the end game.

In what way can you compartmentalize the fact that (if true) Martin deliberately withheld information about his series to the showrunners he selected to adapt his material after failing or even out right refusing to produce more viable chapters for the show to continue without it being sabotage? Isn't that what it is, why beat around the bush? If true it would be sabotage. Luckily for Martin I don't think that is the case and I believe GOT and ASOIAF will have exceedingly similar circumstances (much to the fandoms disappointment). Reading ADWD it is clear (to me) that Cersei is being set up for a return to power with Robert Strong as her tool for vengeance. Young Griff is to face the same demise as Aegon VI and Connington will only fail his surrogate son by larping as Tywin and sacking KL only to turn potential allies away and possibly strengthen waning Lannister authority. Meanwhile the Tyrells will be just as impotent as they were in the show. Mace will lose at Storm's end (as is being highly foreshadowed) and their homeland will be pillaged by Euron. That has been what is happening so far, the Greyjoys and The Golden Company aren't posing an existential threat to Cersei, but an existential threat to her enemies. And before the show many were willing to admit that these late additions to the character roster will play as linchpins to get the major characters in conflict with each other. Instead, due to the poor reception, it has become the default position by fans to assume Cersei (a major character) will be replaced as the central antagonist by some non-POV tertiary figure invented late in the game rather than him just being another literary tool to position Dany/Cersei into their inevitable conflict.