Alex13

I think they would end up like that, if they took land from the region of a lord paramount and created a cadet branch of the royal family. As mentioned in the beginning, Summerhall was a summer castle. I don't get the feeling that Targaryen's lived there year round and long term, to develop the land and collect taxes. I don't think that the king can't take castles/land from a region and create a cadet branch in that region, without smoothing things over with the lord ruling the region. Could Aegon or Daenerys take that castle and it's lands or part of the regions, as punishment for the rebellion? Sure. But i still think as it would be viewed as overreaching on the monarchs part, as the Baratheon's had good cause to rebel.

I think this is how you end up with kings being deposed and decapitated, at the end of rebellions

From what i know, Daemon Blackfyre was granted lands near the Blackwater and he had the right to raise a castle. But the Blackwater is in the Crownlands, under the direct control of the crown. I'm talking about creating new houses in Harrenhal and/or Summerhall, which are in the Riverlands and Stormlands, thus the house would be a subject of House Tully or House Baratheon.

Say a Targaryen king has a couple of children and he decides to restore Summerhall, but instead of rebuilding it as a summer castle and royal residence, he has it rebuilt as a seat for one of his children. And that Harrenhal is vacant and a new house needs to be established there, so he decides to give it to one of his children. Thus the king would create House Targaryen of Summerhall and House Targaryen of Harrenhal. Could the king do that on his own or would he need to smooth things over with lords Baratheon and Tully? Also, how might the creation of those houses impact the politics in those regions? I mean, there are now royal princes in those regions, ruling a castle and lands. Might some lords try to bypass their lord paramount and go with their issues directly to the newly created Targaryen house, in an effort/belief that that would ensure that their issues gets to the king quickly?

I'm not sure that i agree with that. I doubt the fact that the North defeated the Others by themselves during the first long night and i believe that they had help from the entire Westeros, which was easier to obtain as at that time, the entirety of Westeros was dominated by the First Men, so they were more culturally and religious tied to the other regions, compared with the current situation in Westeros, with only the North being dominant First Men, with the other regions being filled by Andals. And given the loses that the North has suffered so far and the casualties that they might still incur with the fighting between Stannis and Ramsay, and possibly Jon and Ramsay, should Stannis fail, then the North's military strength will be further depleted. And while the other regions/kingdoms might agree to help the North with troops, food and other supplies, i doubt that it will help the North out of the kindness of their hearts and not expect anything in return. Plus, the North might end up being the most depopulated region after the war against the Others and they might not be able to withstand an invasion from the Andal south.

Considering the losses that the North have sustained so far, in terms of men and material (due to the Ironborn raids) and the losses that the North will sustain, if/when the battle/war against the Others will commence, the North will be one of the most hard hit regions in Westeros, if not the hardest. Given all that, would it make sense for the North to be independent? I imagine that as a part of the Seven Kingdoms, they had some advantages when it came to buy grain, animals and food stuffs from the other kingdoms; i'm guessing that they were able to buy them cheaper, then when they were independent. Plus, following the wars, if they are part of the Seven Kingdoms, they could ask for help from the other kingdoms and the crown and they could get it at better rates, then if they were independent.

How is that on Jon and not also on Ned? Jon was raised a bastard and although he was raised in Winterfell and received the same lessons as Robb, he knew from an early age that he is a bastard and can't inherit anything. Him going and asking to get something, would have looked to Jon, as his bastard tendencies coming to light and making demands. Jon can't just show up to another lords castle and expect them to house and feed him. Ned would have had to foster or squire him with a lord or send Jon at another lords castle in an official capacity for House Stark. The Hornwood bastard, Edric Storm Mya Stone and Daemon Sand are staying with other people because they were sent there, not because they decided to leave home for better prospects. Larence Snow (the Hornwood bastard) was also sent to Deepwood Motte to be raised by Galbart Glover, by either his father or his grandfather. Mya Stone was given to the Royce's of the Gates of the Moon, because Jon Arryn decided to either pressured Robert into ensuring her future or asked Nestor Royce to take her and in the future give her a job. Edric Storm is with Renly, because Robert conceived him with Delena Florent (a noblewoman, from a historical and prestigious house) during his brother's wedding. Due to the magnitude of Robert's fuck up and that Edric is noble on both sides of his parents and because of pressure, Robert sent Edric to be raised at Storm's End. And Daemon Sand is from Dorne, where they have a far more liberal view of bastards, then anywhere else in the Seven Kingdoms and he is from House Allyrion, whose seat of Godsgrace is close to Sunspear. And he also squired for Prince Oberyn. But in all 4 cases, the children's parents, either through pressure or because they wanted to, were the ones that sent them to be raised someplace else. The bastards didn't turn 15-16 years old and just left their homes and travelled to Deepwood Motte, the Gates of the Moon, Storm's End or Sunspear and demand housing, food and a work place from the lords of the castles. Their family ensured that they will be sent and received to the places where they currently are. Ned never did any of that for Jon. He kept him at Winterfell and thus (inadvertently) limited the options that Jon thought he had. Ned could have sent him to foster/squire with the Glover's, Umber's, Manderly's or others, but choose to keep him close and watch over him. And at 16 years old and without a letter from Ned or Robb, Jon can't just show up at White Harbor and expect to be treated like a true born son.

Personally, i think that Jon choose the only option that he thought was open to him. Yes, Jon choose to join the Night's Watch, but he only choose that because he didn't see any other option for himself. I agree that he is the one that choose the Night's Watch and that he ignored what Benjen said, but it's not like he was presented with another option. When Ned talked with Jon, he did propose Jon learning from Rodrik or Jory, to one day replace them. Ned just asked him if he is sure and when Jon said yes, he didn't press on to ensure that Jon knows what he is signing up to for, possibly suggesting that he can go to the Wall in an inspection for House Stark, see the reality and then decide if he wishes to join or if he wishes to remain in Winterfell, where Ned and/or Robb would have found something for him to do. I imagine that it was hard for Jon to choose a future for himself, when no real options were presented to him. In his mind, joining the Night's Watch was a opportunity to wash away the shame of being a bastard and earn honor for himself and his father. And i don't think that Catelyn would have appreciated Jon staying at Winterfell, while Ned is in King's Landing. Plus, i don't think that Jon could have just shown up at White Harbor and expect to be a guest of House Manderly. Jon is at the end of the day a bastard, not true born. And i don't think that the Manderly's would have just housed and feed him, out of the kindness of their hears or because he is Ned's son. They would have done that if Ned or Robb would have sent him there in an official capacity, representing House Stark. Or if Ned would have talked with Wyman to foster/squire Jon with one of his sons.

That does make sense, but Ned kinda sucks at communication and he never told Jon that he was planning/thinking about giving him lands and letting him make his own house. Jon was at Winterfell his entire life and i don't think that Ned ever talked with him about his future and Jon did ask him about it, due to his bastard status and i'm guessing that Jon thought that Ned doesn't wish to help him setup for the future, so he saw the Night's Watch as his only alternative.

I think that the Targaryens would have had small chances of success if they invaded with the dothraki. The Targaryen would be seen as invaders and if they are invading with the dothraki, they will lose supporters and sympathy from Westerosi lords. And the dothraki practice of taking slaves and mass rapes, plus their different culture, would have drawn the Westerosi lords together and they would have banded against them. The dothraki might be good, but they have problems against well-equipped and trained formations such as the Unsullied and the Golden Company. And the men at arms in Westeros are equipped and trained in a similar manner to the Golden Company. Plus, the dothraki would have had problems in the forests of the Stormlands, the hills and valleys of the Westerlands, the mountains of the Vale and the swamps of the Neck and the cold of the North. I think that initially the Targaryens and the dothraki would have had success, but they would ultimately lose.

Why would Randyll Tarly agree to foster/squire Jon, a bastard from the North? I know that House Tarly has First Men roots, but i can't really see Randyll agreeing to squire a northern, regardless of their birth status. If there is anyone from the Reach that would squire Jon, i would imagine that it is the Tyrell's, especially if Robert is helping Ned look for someone to take Jon. They would probably see Jon as a political tool through which they could get close to the king's best friend and then get closer to the king. Sure they have Loras squiring for Renly, but another access point would not hurt. The Tyrells would either have Garlan take Jon as a squire or squire Jon with the Fossoways of Cider Hall, as that is close to Highgarden. Plus, if they are in contact with Ned due to Jon squiring with them, they could also invest money in the North and get some control and influence there; and Ned could borrow money to invest in developing the North, provided that the Tyrells don't want a big interest rate.

I don't think that Ned would have squired Robb outside the North. If he would have squired/fostered Robb, he would have found someone in the North, the same way that Rickard did with Brandon. And after the Greyjoy Rebellion, Catelyn and Ned have Robb, Sansa and possibly Arya (she was born before or during the Greyjoy Rebellion). And why would people speculate that Jon is Robert's bastard with Lyanna, if Robert takes him as his squire? So far, no one has thought about Jon being Robert's bastard. Also, i can see Jon being squired in Dorne, especially with House Dayne, as that would re-enforce the rumors that Jon is Ned's son with Ashara. As for the Reach, who there do you think would agree to squire Jon? Either at Ned's request or because Robert is helping?

Well, from what i know Jon wasn't given full lessons into leading or he wasn't given lessons about leading at all. If he is a squire, he could get leadership lessons and possibly be brought out of his shell and be made more confident.

If Robert would have travelled to Winterfell following the Greyjoy Rebellion and offered to help his friend Ned with Jon, by taking him as his squire or helping him find someone to take Jon as a squire, what would have been Ned's options? Would Ned have refused and state that he already has plans to squire/foster Jon and then work on that? Or would he have accepted, so as to not raise suspicion for refusing? I imagine that Robert taking a bastard as a squire would have raised a lot of eyebrows, but i don't think that Robert would have cared how that looked, as he would have seen it as doing a favor to his best friend. Not to mention, Jon is said to look a lot like Ned, so that could have been a comfort for Robert and help him reminisce about his time in the Vale. Or if Robert would not have taken him as a squire, then in what region would Ned and/or Robert be looking to squire Jon and with what knight or lord?

The Greyjoy rebellion took place in 289 AC and Robert was crowned in 283 AC. Not to mention, that Joffrey, Robert's son and heir was born in 286 AC. How come Balon waited so long, considering that before Joffrey was born, Robert's line was not secure. And Robert's reign and hold on the Iron Throne was also not secure, as Robert winning the Greyjoy Rebellion lead to his rule being secure.

I think that is (at least partially) due to the pride of having the largest castle in the Seven Kingdoms. They don't want to tear it down and build a smaller, stronger castle, because they are the lord that has the biggest castle. And i think tearing down the current castle and building a smaller, more acceptable one would cost a lot of coin and take a lot of time. Although the costs and time might be reduced, if stone from Harrenhal could be reused.

From what i have seen and from what i remember, the Lord of Harrenhal, doesn't seem as wealthy and powerful as he could be. It's mentioned that the Lord of Harrenhal commands vast tracts of fertile land and that at a stroke of the pen/quill, a newly named Lord of Harrenhal would become one of the wealthiest and powerful lords of Westeros. And if the lands are as vast and fertile as it is mentioned, then the lands should also house a sizable population, which would also translate into a large (3000-5000) army/levy at the disposal of the Lord. But none of these things are mentioned. And it's pretty central location, would also give it ample opportunities to become a commerce and trading hub. It's close to or on the king's road and i think that it's a few days ride or a weeks ride from King's Landing and it is also close to the Crossroads of the the Trident and where the King's Road, the River Road and the road leading to the Vale meet. Not to mention, the God's Lake has a river running from it to the Blackwater Rush, on which products could easily and cheaply be shipped to King's Landing. Are these things not mentioned and is the Lord of Harrenhal actually poor or struggling due to the fact that he needs to invest a large portion of his income into maintaining Harrenhal, thus not allowing him to gather wealth and to maintain a large army? Or did George not fully develop the lordship of Harrenhal, it's lands and it's economy and simply stated that Harrenhal is the largest castle in the Seven Kingdoms, the Hoare's died there and that the castle is cursed? And if Harrenhal were a smaller castle, but still command it's current lands/territory, how wealthy and powerful (military, economically and political) would the Lord of Harrenhal be?

But if the Stark's/the North would be very interested in establishing a port city there, would they also not develop a fleet, to protect the city and the merchant ships? Plus, if the Ironborn start raiding the city, then wouldn't that be a declaration of war and would they not be breaking the king's peace? The last time they attacked a city on the western coast of Westeros, it was Lannisport and the Greyjoy rebellion had started.

Would a new house be created with the house becoming a vassal or House Dustin or House Stark? Or would it be an independent house, with possibly their own vassal/s and answering directly to House Stark? And would House Dustin be able to directly control it, possibly moving their castle/court to the new port city or will they or the Starks (depending on who establishes the castle) have to give it to someone? If the Starks were to establish the port city, with the city and the lands around it remaining within the control of House Dustin, would they be able to create a new lord, without any relation to the Dustin's and they make them vassals of House Dustin? Or would they have to create a new cadet branch of House Dustin?