nimlot

On 5/22/2023 at 4:02 AM, Smoke317 said:

Arthur’s camps were orderly in the South because he was dealing with disciplined knights & soldiers.  He’s had to adapt to how the Free Folk live since joining them.  They are much more chaotic and less structured. But somehow Mance (Arthur) has still found a way to do the impossible and unite all of them.

And I think if Arthur believes in the prophecy of Jon being the promised prince, he would willingly go North and begin the process of uniting the Wildlings.  Basically establishing Jon’s army in the War for the Dawn.   Imo, I think it also sets up the strong possibility that Mance sent the pink letter in an effort to entice Jon to bring the Wildling army to Winterfell where he will eventually reveal to Jon his true lineage down in the crypts of Winterfell.  

I think the Daynes are caretakers of Dawn and the chosen protectors of the Promised Prince(s).  Ashara chose to go with Aegon as a caretaker under the guise of Lemore or she could be Quaithe guiding Danaerys, and Arthur chose to go up North with Jon.  
 

Part of me still thinks (hopes) Dawn is in Lyanna’s tomb and Mance (Arthur) is gonna reveal to him his destiny as the one who will bring the Dawn.   How cool would it be to see Mance training Jon in how to use a 2 handed Greatsword?  But what if the twist is that “the promised prince” was actually a promise made to the Others that they would be given a Prince who would become their King and the Children & Men reneged on the deal? That could be why they tested Waymar in the prologue. To see if he was their Promised One.  He wasn’t.  Jon with Dawn will pass the test and will ultimately make the sacrifice and become the True Nights King or King of the Others and lead them back to the Lands of Always Winter.

Thanks for pointing this out. It would totally be more difficult to organize wildlings even not orderly, but somehow he did it. 

I am also inclined to believe that Mance wrote the Pink Letter. I like the Cantuse's theory on it.

Dunk and Egg anytime. I don't why, but I am not that interested in FB. I haven't even started watching THOD. But from what I've heard the characters are all unlikable, this is the next level grey characters for me and I'm not sure I like that. I generally know the history and that is enough for me. D&E stories are really interesting, have good format and narrative. And I want to see Winterfell and Starks from another angle. That would be awesome!

Some of my favourites were already mentioned.

Here they are:

1. Jon is Arthur's and Lyanna's son. This is mostly based on symbolism and parallels for me. One of my favourite parallels are Jon - Pyp - Grenn = Arthur - Oswell - Gerold = Sword - Bat - Bull and Jon's dilemma with broken vows if Arthur + Lyanna took place. We are also shown the same struggle of Arys Oakheart. Also Arthur's Camaris and Lancelot parallels.

2. Still considering it, but Arthur = Mance and Gerold = Qhorin. It's like an intuitive attraction to the idea. And I strictly opposed it at some point. I don't really see the point of Arthur being there other than for the revelation for Jon, for whom it might be not even valuable if he resurrects less emotional and stuff. So a beat weak. 

3. Joffrey got poisoned circumstantially by Tyrion's pie. Littlefinger wanted to kill Tyrion, Olenna got on board only after Sansa's marriage.

4. Still unclear, but something should have happened at Wolf's Den connected to Ned during the Rebellion. Too much details are given in ADWD when Davos is there.

5. Dany's father is Rhaegar. Probably Ashara is the mother.

6. Shadrich, Morgarth and Byron theory by sweeticeandfiresunray.

7. Cantuse theories about what's happening in Winterfell in ADWD.

8. Not a theory in any sense, but just a feeling that we don't know anything about the real reasons why the Rebellion started. I don't see Lyanna and Rhaegar fleeing together. I believe that maybe some third party (either Aerys or Tywin) tried to capture one or both of them and a rescue took place, which might be successful or, on the opposite, not. I am really not sure about the pieces in this game, who was on which side and who did what. Just that it was not a fairytale elopement for the prophecy.

I'll probably remember more later.

On 8/7/2010 at 9:48 AM, History of Westeros said:

There have been several mentions of Memory, Sorrow and Thorn in this thread.. but there are quite a few more that deserve mentioning.

 

1) Forget King Arthur and the sword in the stone. Arthur Dayne is Camaris from MST. Both were the finest knights in the realm, known as much for honor as for martial skill. **Both wield a sword forged from a meteorite** (Looney theory based on this connection about to be posted after I finish this one).

 

2) Pryrates, a fire mage who comes from a far off land, is closest advisor to the king and wields undue influence. An obvious Melisandre. Also, said king was the unpopular younger brother of a popular king.

 

3) There is an ancient evil that arises in the frozen north. I don't need to explain that one.

 

4) In MST there are good elves (hidden from humanity and thought extinct) and bad elves (ancient evil in the north). I suspect that the Children of the Forest are the good-guy counterpart, "hidden good guy elves" (even if they are all dead in aSoIaF. I bet they are not, however). This also makes me suspect that the CotF and the Others have similar origins.

 

5) If R+L = J is true (I think it is), the main character of MST is a "hidden heir" a la Jon Snow. This is by itself, not much since the hidden heir thing has been done a million times, but considering all the other parallels, it goes to show how much Martin was inspired by MST.

 

6) Also, though it certainly isn't unique to the two series, MST used shifting POV's as the narrative style.

 

I recall that there are even more parallels, but I read MST more than 5 years ago. When I read it, I had already read the pre-Feast books at least 4 times each. Reading MST was fun.. it wasn't great, but there was a wealth of similarities to aSoIaF which enhanced the experience.

I was really surprised to find out about such similarities.

Although for the 5th point I believe that the parallels might go even further:
"Josua rescinds his claim to the throne, saying Simon has more of a right anyways since Josua's father was Camaris, not Prester John. (Camaris' confession)"

I'm an Arthur + Lyanna supporter.

On 3/7/2023 at 5:31 PM, Fun Guy from Yuggoth said:

When I was looking up Arion words I found some strong evidence to support the theory that Arthur Dayne is Mance Rayder

So "Mance Rayder" is an anagram of "dayne camerr" and camaoir  means "Dawn" in Gaelic

 

airgtheoir  [Arthur] means "plunderer, spoiler"  which is synonymous with "Raider"

airightheoir [Arthur] means "observer, a listener, one who feels, perceives"

radarc  [Rayder] means "vision, eyesight, observant, wisdom"  [this is where the word "radar" comes from]

 

Thematically, King Arthur unites the people, and King Mance Rayder unites the people Beyond the Wall. 

duno / dyuno  means to "unite" in Welsh  and daoine  means "the people" in Gaelic and duin means "manse" in Gaelic

 

Beyond the Wall  is a metaphor for "in the Otherworld, afterlife" / "the dead" as the Wall is the barrier between life and death. 

manes means "ghosts of the dead" in Latin and mane means "dawn" and mance means "to free"  [just occurred to me that there might be a "dawn of the dead" reference here]

 

Mance unites the Dead beyond the Wall, and brings them into the world of the living.

 

and cam  means "blind" and "tricky, deceitful" and "blind in one eye"   Mance is a master of disguise and there is an Odin reference with the One-Eye, and Mance's raven helm.  And Odin gathered an army of the Undead at Val-halla (wall hall) to unleash at Ragnarok, but they were the good guys. 

 

riadaire  [Rayder] means "a cunning old fellow"

airithe  means "special" and the first usage note is duine airithe [Dayne Arth]  "special man"

 

art means "stone, rock" and "champion, noble, great, bear"

arth / urth means "bear" in Welsh and in Gaelic bear  means "invader"  [raider]

dwyn means "bear" in Welsh and dal  means "bear" and Mance married Dalla
 

 

reodh means "frost" 

radaire / radaireacht means "wanderer, night-walker"  [radaireacht is where the name Royd Eris from Night-Flyers came from]

rheidyr means "knight, rider" and manes means "ghosts of the dead"
 

The White Walkers are made of frost, and they are night-walkers who can only come out at night and they are Ghost Knights.

 

rheiddio  means "to shine, to beam, to cast rays"

 

I am all for it. I don't actually like the idea that much because I can't see the logic behind the narrative. And I can't imagine Arthur doing all this stuff Mance does, but again we know almost nothing about Arthur. Also there is one contradiction: Arthur's camps were orderly and Mance's chaotic. But maybe even this is a clue. 

But some elements around Mance are definitely connected with Arthur. Especially and his fight with Jon Snow while he was concealed as Rattleshirt. And if he and Jon are related (uncle or father) then the scene is so cool.