Abaddon

I struggled but finally gave it an eight. Was leaning towards seven strictly on the horrible, terrible, awful rape scene. Honestly, that really soured the whole episode for me. Otherwise I thought it was good to great.

Not the absolute best-adapted hour of the series so far, but still well done and the original content is so strong I can't help but give it a 10/10 (my only perfect rating of the season).

I think pointing to D&D saying this is the moment they hoped to reach and then nitpicking the hell out of it (my opinion) is pretty silly. As if we should consider it a failure because they were as blown away by the scene as we were. But, to each their own.

Gave it a solid 8. I would put it roughly on par with S3E1 and a bit better than S3E2. After the run of great episodes (3-5) we've just had it naturally feels like a letdown.

Really enjoyed the interaction with Mel and the BwB. Looking forward to seeing Gendry at Dragonstone. Loved Oleanna and Tywin of course, although I was a little confused by the quill snapping but it makes sense to me now after reading some of the previous comments. I am one of the few genuinely sorry to see Ros go (did not care for her in S1 but liked her in S2 just fine) and the way she went was brutal and shocking and totally unexpected. The scene with Sansa at the end was one of the first times I've felt empathy for her this season. Oh and Jaime&Brienne&Bolton continue to be masterful in their scenes.

Wall climb was good, not great, to me. A little too Michael Bay over-the-top Hollywood in execution and the ending seemed weirdly out of place. Not bad... just not quite what I hoped for. Can't agree at all with those that said it looks bad or cheap though, it looked spectacular.

The Riverrun stuff was fine, but I think it's suffering a bit from trying to recover to a position that will end where it does in the books. The way they got here didn't work for me as well as the book. That said I think from this point on it's going to proceed pretty similarly and I am really on pins and needles thinking about that. I agree with those who have commented that the Blackfish is being written to be too boorish. It reminds me a lot of Quorin, in fact. They really failed to translate Quorin very well and I see echos of that here, although they are doing a bit of a better job with the Blackfish than they did with Quorin.

I think overall this episode is showing some of the stretch marks of some of the threads being extended, notably Kings Landing and the Bran storyline. I can't say I mind that too much as I feel the alternative (compressing other storylines to move more briskly through the material) would have been far worse. But, it still shows.

9. As usual by the time I've gotten to the end of the thread I'm so discouraged I don't want to even bother posting my likes/dislikes, so I will leave it at that.

Gave it a 9. (That's 7.5/7 8.5/8 9/9 and 9/9 so far from me). Although, I've only seen it once and it was in a sadly talkative environment. So this could end up becoming a 10 once I have a chance to re-watch it...

Dracarys is right up there with Baelor as one of the best scenes in the show. Just brilliant.

Speaking of things that seemed strange in the episode; Burn Gorman as random Night's Watchman? I would have expected a bigger role for him. Even with the expectation that he plays a role in the upcoming demise of the Lord Commander, it still seems like a pretty bit part.

So... that leads me to my latest show spitball: I think Burn Gorman is going to become a main antagonist in the Night's Watch to Jon, probably taking the place of either Janos Slynt and/or Aliser Thorne. I've really been hoping that both of those actors come back for S4 and it's still possible. However, if they can't get one or both back, they're going to need to have someone more obviously antagonistic to Jon than anyone else we've seen yet, so it would make sense to introduce someone at some point this season to take that role.

Or, maybe he dies next episode, and I can forget about my thought :).

saw a lot of posts to this point, but I didn't see anyone really hit it on the head...

It's not that Locke is dumb, jealous, or rage full ... It's that Locke doesn't intend to ransom Jamie at all. He tells them that at the end of ep2 when Jamie says he is worth riches. As far as Locke is concerned, he'll bring Jamie back to Roose, Roose will send him to Robb where he will be beheaded for his crimes. A beheading goes just as well whether or not the prisoner has 1 or 2 hands.

On the other...hand (had to) there was no mention of Brienne. She is not a fugitive, only a new prisoner. Thank's to Jamie she now has ransom value, and so is kept unbesmirched (not defiled)

This, I feel, is an improvement to the source material. You sum up the whole motive for the "behanding" by simply saying that a Northman sworn to a bannerman of the King in the North would obviously assume the lord he is loyal to would not want to be on the Lannisters good side. Roose ought to be fine with a 1 handed Jamie if Roose was loyal. Since Roose has some other motives however...

Locke thus introduces a few plot points and will help wrap that whole thing up nicely when the viewers consider it in retrospect

I had some vague ideas long these lines, but you have very cogently summarized them, much clearer than I was thinking. Well done! This makes perfect sense. And agreed, well done show.

I gave it a very solid "9". I wouldn't say there was anything in particular I disliked just a few minor notes here and there that felt just a little bit off. (For reference, I rated Ep1 an 8.5 (8) and Ep2 a 7.5 (7)).

LOVED the ending and the end credit music. Although I can definitely understand this is something that is going to be love or hate with really no middle ground to speak of. I have some further thoughts on that but I will probably save it for the review thread.

I gave it a 10, as always I'd give it an extra few digits if I could for the rage it's inspired from a few people on here.

I gave it a 12 but because of the horrible end credit music I had to subtract negative two and ended up at a 14.

Which is exactly what happens in the show as well.... or am I missing something.

In the book, while Jaime does tire, it's a long fight and much more competitive. In the show he tires very quickly and she beats him down really easily, and derisively. The objection that I was replying to was the show doesn't leave one with a sense that Jaime is one of the best fighters in Westeros, because Brienne beats him so easily. I agree that Jaime comes across as less of a badass in the show version, but I've concluded that it is more realistic that way given the conditions of his long imprisonment. Hope that helps clarify my thinking.

After watching the show's version of the Jaime/Brienne fight and thinking it over some more, I've come to the conclusion that the book version was pretty unrealistic. No way Jaime can fight effectively while his hands are manacled together and he's been literally chained up for months. I don't care if you are the best swordsman of Westeros, if you've been chained up for that long you're going to be in horrible shape and have no stamina at all.

1) She was already on her way out of the place with no one blocking her and the door. 2) I would expect there would be horses outside, although I didn't see anyone on horseback, so maybe not.

I don't think she'd run away with Gendry and Hot Pie still captured... just my two cents.

I gave S3Ep1 an 8.5/10 (voted 8/10), this one a 7.5/10 (voted 7). Rounded down because I tend to be a little over-positive.

I thought the episode was very solid, but only occasionally spectacular. I can't believe I am saying it but I think the lack of Dany in this episode is the biggest single reason for my rating difference. It seems strange to say that after almost a full season of not caring (positively or negatively) for Dany's storyline at all. In any case:

+ Unlike most weighing in here I really liked the Shae/Tyrion scene. I thought it very effectively captured an awakening awkwardness and rift between them. Shae was genuinely surprised and a little bit angry that Tyrion admitted finding Sansa attractive; Tyrion was defensive but not really apologetic.

+ I loved the QoT. Thought she was perfect. I've been very on the fence with Mance (and continue to be so) but am delighted with Rigg so far.

+ I loved Thoros, aside from the bizarre choice of having him sing the Rains of Castamere. WTF?

+ I liked Orell's introduction.

+ I liked the Brienne/Jaime fight well enough. It suffered a bit from being condensed from the book but in the end I thought they captured the important bits. Looking forward to seeing more of Locke.

+ I "liked" the Theon bits... they weren't over the top (yet) which is good because they will need to build up to that.

o I am neutral on the Robb stuff. I do think they are doing a good job of developing Karstark and Bolton.

- Although I was prepared for it, the Catelyn scene seemed really weird. Everything about it was really well executed but it was like Bizarro Catelyn... think http://upload.wikime...ssicBizarro.PNG... and just ... well, bizarre :). I should note that everyone else I was watching it with (mostly show-only viewers, a casual book-reader, and a spoiled viewer) all thought the scene was great.

- The Beyond the Wall stuff (all of it) underwhelmed, other than Orell. At least the scenery is spectacular.

Will need a re-watch to really dig in.

Yes exactly. It's so frustrating, especially with the Shae/Sansa friendship. They already had an amazing rivarly between Cersei and Margaery - why do they need more? The only reason the Cersei/Margaery rivalry works so well is because they actually both have a lot of reasons to be wary of each other.

As book-readers, we should all know why they need to start developing a Shae/Sansa rift. Shae and Tyrion have much more of a genuine relationship in the show than the books. I was really glad to see the signs of some cracks in their relationship. Sansa is clearly going to end up being a big wedge between them. This is earlier than I expected, but they do need to start planting some seeds so it doesn't just come out of nowhere.

I enjoyed this episode better than last time. See? Without nude scenes squeezing in, we get to see more of our important characters on screen.

Ridiculous. 30 seconds of screen time is the difference between getting to see important characters and not? Please.

Moreover, you literally have her taking the view that maybe this is all her fault. Those who are inclined to believe that, either through latent misgoyny, a lack of empathy, or a preference for simplistic narratives, are just going to latch onto it. That's not what I think the writers expected, but it's what they're going to get.

Well, let's be fair here. A lot of readers of the books hate Catelyn. I think that's bizarre personally, and I know that's not what George intended. But it hardly seems fair to blame the show for making many show-only viewers blame Catelyn without acknowledging the book did the same thing (albeit very differently).

At this point I don't really think of them as the same character, and while I certainly wasn't a Catelyn hater I didn't love her character either. I wish they had stuck to the book Catelyn and I don't know why they didn't, but while it's a shame there are other alterations that bother me a lot more (Jon & Quorin at the top of the list).

My thinking was that he has simply gone a little insane as a result of what he has seen and has been done to him. Lying amongst corpses for I would imagine a protracted period of time would perhaps psychologically steer him towards

necromancy

.

Book spoiler:

In the books, at least, we know that Qyburn was evicted from the order of Maesters for necromancy. So he was already quite practiced before we see him doing what he does at King's Landing. I don't see any reason for the show to change that, of course, that doesn't mean they won't :)

Not sure I like the introduction of Qyburn this way. Putting my reasoning within book spoiler code.

If he almost died at the hands of Lannisters, why would he be so helpful to Cersei during the WOS and with Robert Strong?

My guess, they are setting up Quburn as a Lannister stooge from the start. He gets intentionally left behind to infiltrate and see if he can breed dissension in the ranks. He will be the one who connects Roose with Tywin. I think this makes a lot of sense and could work really well.

It sounds fucking awesome, to be more precise.

Damn man. Now I'm really excited and anticipating this! Still have to pinch myself that we got dialects and the way Peterson created them is fascinating.

Did anyone think that Valyrian did not sound as refined as expected? not a big deal, but I sounded too common to me.

What we heard was a variant of "Low Valyrian" or as David Peterson calls it "Astapor Valyrian". We're going to hear some High Valyrian later and it should sound MUCH more refined.

Gave it a 1.

Your rationale is very convincing. After reading your stunning conclusion I feel like I am going to change my vote of 8 to a 1 as well.

I mean how do they explain Dany magically getting a ship to take her to a land that hadn't even been discussed in season 2 (Astapor).

It was very clearly stated in Ep10 of S2 that Dany got enough treasure from Xaro's house to "buy a small ship" as per Jorah. I am pretty sure Astapor was mentioned as a possible destination at some point, although that was admittedly easier to miss.

I'm feeling an 8.5. Since I can't do that, I'm going to knock it down to an 8 "plus", because I don't think it quite deserves a 9.

A few random notes:

- I don't have as much a problem with the opening as most people seem to. I wouldn't call it a standout of the episode but I am fine with them skipping the battle.

- The Giant rocked. They do such a great job of not making things "too fantasy". There has to be an edge of plausibility and they do that very well.

- I liked the change in Jon's stated motivation in deserting. I think the 'bastard' bit worked for a proud 14 yr old boy in the books but would have felt a bit ridiculous for the Jon Snow in the series. I also liked that they built on the previous change of Jon actually seeing the Walker and Mormont knowing (not just suspecting something weird was afoot). It makes me dislike that change a little bit less, and shows they are at least thoughtfully considering their changes, even in cases where I don't like them...

- I will need to re-watch the Robb in Harrenhall bit. My guests (I host a smallish party every week of the show) were talking during this and I missed a lot of conversation :(

- I am intrigued by the introduction of Qyburn 'surviving' the bloodbath at Harrenhall

I think this is an indication that in the show the Roose/Tywin connection might have come about due to Qyburn being a plant by the Lannister forces. I am pretty bad about reading between the lines in the books so I don't know if anything like this was ever implied or not.

- Loved the Kings Landing stuff, all of it. The Tywin/Tyrion scene being the standout, naturally.

- Davos (yay) and Dragonstone were good. Glad to see Salla back, hope we get to see him more than once this season.

- Loved the Astapor stuff, all of it. Out of the entire episode the Dany stuff WOWed me more than anything else (other than the Giant, I suppose).

I'm really looking forward to catching up with the rest of the gang next week. And then... onward, and upward!

That's not an accurate statement. Many folks in the past few weeks have complained about the needless "T and A" of the series especially in the Ros scenes, now they complain about see two men get it on and they are homophobic?

Oh, of course you're right, look at all of the complaints in this very thread about the needless Margary/Renly sex sceen that was so gratuitous, definitely NOT in the book, and far more explicit than the Loras/Renly sex sce-

Oh, right, there weren't any complaints about that. At all. And it happened in this very episode.

I don't want to derail the thread, but you're full of it.

I give it a 9 (following an 8 and a 7.5 promoted to 8 respectively).

Was going to write a lot more, but the homophobia that is continuing to crop up in these threads is making me sad and is pretty much killing my interest in posting. "I'm not homophobic but that was gross". If you feel like turning away from the screen because two men are kissing, but you don't find kids being stabbed through the throat coughing up blood troubling, you're homophobic.

Oh yeah, and I still don't get Shae. I hope they have somthing more in mind for her than the book version because otherwise I don't really see the point.