Mr Fixit

This is SPARTA.

Stan, you're on on a roll tonight. Almost better than watching the episode (which, unfortunately, I'm not. Soon :drool: .)

ETA: Also means the show has a 100% fresh rating from me... :P

Ran, I knew you were a closeted apologist! Say it or I'll hunt you through all Seven Hells!

654 votes, 8.77 average, 9 median, 8.94 normalized average.

Holding steady.

Did they cut out a Ramsay rape and killing scene? The episode was eight minutes short and the prior episode six or seven minutes short. Are they toning it down after Jaime scene?

Seems to me something was cut. I suspect Myranda died in some way but they chose to cut it for whatever reason. Maybe due to the recent Great Spring Outrage of 2014?

By the way, what do you consider the best episodes of the series (top 5)?

Arghhhh, too constraining... does not compute...

I'll recuse myself from rating Season 4 because I need more time to let it truly sink in. A nice proper binge watch in a few months ought to do it. I do think it's very good though.

Anyway, I think TOP5 would have to be (in no particular order) Blackwater, You Win or You Die, Rains of Castamere, Kissed by Fire, Baelor, and What Is Dead May Never Die. Okay, that's 6, but I can't really take anything off that list.

worst episode of the series (barring The Night Lands)

Yeah, about that. Why does everyone hate poor Night Lands so much? :( I really dig that episode! KL stuff is fantastic, we see the introduction of the one and only Salladhor Saan, Theon's arrival on Pyke is handled very well, and in hindsight I especially like the changes made to Jon's story - witnessing a WW carry away the baby - because it leads to Jon's great explanation to Mance on why he left the NW (much better and more believable than in the books, I think).

Is it because of all the nudity in this episode? Theon on the boat, that hilarious and truly over-the-top scene in LF's brothel that cracks me up every time I see it, and then Stannis and Mel? It was a bit much, I'll grant you that. Coupled with some of the more pronounced deviations from the books, I can understand why people rate it lower. As I said, though, in my opinion it's a very good episode.

If I had to pick the weakest episodes so far - and even those I like as they have enough to recommend them - those would probably be: 1x02 The Kingsroad and 2x08 The Prince of Winterfell. Those two are the only episodes I feel are really mediocre. Everything else is at least good.

I'd say D&D are the best GoT writers. They always deliver on the big moments, and, unlike GRRM or BC (both of whom are amazing, but BC>GRRM), have much more on their plate. They probably get less time, but produce amazing scenes. The Rains of Castamere, Baelor and And Now His Watch Is Ended are all undoubtedly some of the greatest episodes of TV ever, and among the 7 best GoT episodes- BC and GRRM both have two (they get less, but very juicy scenes). We're incredibly lucky to have these 4 amazing writers working on GoT- I can't wait to see how Dave Hill does next season!

I think the argument goes - not unfairly - that Cogman is more consistent. While D&D do occasionally write a weaker script here and there, all of Cogman's episodes have been really top notch. In my view, he wrote the second best episode of Season 2, What Is Dead May Never Die, it's a tie between Rains of Castamere and Kissed by Fire for the honour of being the best Season 3 episode, and Laws of Gods and Men has clearly been the best episode of Season 4 so far. Bryan is very very good indeed.

On the other hand, I feel that GRRM is somewhat overrated on these boards. Not that his episodes are bad, they're certainly not, but besides Blackwater I don't think they particularly stand out. The Pointy End is great, but not quite on the level of episodes directly preceding or following it. The Bear and the Maiden Fair is among the weaker Season 3 outings (though still pretty good; I don't get all the hate directed at it or The Climb), while The Lion and the Rose, although a good and enjoyable episode, is somewhat uneven at times.

ETA: Averaging out just my own votes concurs that I hold a similar view -- George pips Cogman, but is more inconsistent (thanks to "The Bear and the Maiden Fair", but also thanks to "Blackwater"; GRRM's the only one of the two to have gotten a 10 from me so far).

The other being... let me guess... Baelor?

ETA: Strike that. I seem to have misinterpreted you. You didn't say that you gave only two episodes a 10, but that Cogman is the one (as opposed to Martin) you've never given a 10. Right?

I personally simply adore Kissed by Fire. That one deserves a straight 10 in my opinion. One of the very best episodes the show has ever done.

601 votes in, 8.79 average, 9 median, 8.95 normalized average.

Now that we've seen all 5 Cogman episodes produced thus far, do you think he's the best GoT writer?

Better than Martin mayhap? ^_^

^Of course it isn't. Once again, it's pretty well-reviewed. There was just a convergence of fan outrage and ideologue outrage over that one scene and that coloured how a lot of folks saw it. Wrongly IMO.

Agreed. Oathkeeper, too, was a really good episode, one of my favourites actually. Cogman was up to the task, us usual. Give that man more episodes! I do agree though that First of His Name was solid, but no more. For me personally, the weakest episode of the five aired so far.

People can strongly dislike the Craster's material for the stupid logic and the fact that it's a closed circle that literally just filled time.

Others have suggested things they could have done alternatively -- even things to make Jon's trip up there make sense, and then to generate something more for him-- and I suspect they would have been happier with it (I certainly would have been). Hell, some people were probably as annoyed by the fact that Locke -- an invented character taking part in a new storyline! -- was killed off in a way that they felt undercut the potential there was to that new storyline. Amazing! People who "hate hate hate invented material with a passion" who disliked the writers waste the potentials in "invented material"!

You're not going to find anyone who feels apologetic for not liking when writers contort logic to make a story line work, or then fritter away anything worthwhile from it to reduce it to a (fairly unexciting) action beat. If you want to reduce that to "not liking new story lines", feel free, but I think those who rate it as they did know why, precisely, they did so.

Notice that I didn't make any value judgement as to the quality of the invented material. I can perfectly understand that people think it was bad stuff. As for 4x03, neither the Seven nor the Old Gods (and the Drowned God too!) will convince me that Breaker of Chains was the worst episode ever aired.

Weird. I actually think that season 4 has been the strongest so far.

I wouldn't say that exactly, but I think it's been very good. I maintain that low figures given for the last three episodes can be explained by 2 simple things: sept scene for 4x03 and Craster's for 4x04 and 4x05.

Book readers hate hate hate invented material with a passion. Ah well, what can you do?

If providing ships turned out to be the only plot-consequential thing Victarion did in the books, there's approximately zero chance he would make it into the show. Martin never felt the need to build a whole subplot around the Golden Company's shipping fleet. They hired some ships. End of story.

There is that dragon horn business...

Are you going to tell us the sun rises in the east and nothing is certain but death and taxes, too? ;)

Hey, that's your American/Swedish bias there! Where I come from, taxes are most definitely not certain. ^_^

As for the episode, look how many posters rated it 1-5. I'd say the main reason is that the show went off books, simple as that.

614 votes, 7.66 average, 9 median, 7.86 normalized average.

So, if I understand correctly, the posters here believe this was one of the weakest GoT episodes ever put to screen.

Yup, no book bias at all. :read: :commie: ^_^

I suggest people look up the meaning of "filler". It doesn't mean "not in the books". The sooner you get it, the better.

Completely agree with your Bran comment. The only way it could have been worse was if the outlaw Crows had captured him in a whore house. I'm surprised HBO didn't try to work that angle.......

Har de har har.

Do you write your own material?

These deserters would simply kill Bran,Jojen &Hodor, & Then brutally treat Meera. Pointless, worst change since the whole Dagmar acts as Reek moment.

And why is that? Only an idiot would kill the last freaking Stark of Winterfell in existence (Rickon being gone who knows where, might even be dead by now). You don't kill him, you use him as leverage if it comes to that. This boy could be the mutineer's ticket home, if they play it right.

People could really think things through before moaning about e.v.e.r.y s.i.n.g.l.e. change from the books.

A great episode, no doubt about it. Bryan Cogman delivers his best, as usual.

I like how focused Season 4 has proven to be so far. D&D aren't afraid to leave characters off-screen for multiple episodes which results in a tighter narrative with more forward momentum. Dany's conquest of Meereen was brief but very effective. I like Grey Worm's increased prominence and the way the show made him our viewpoint into the slave revolt. King's Landing was great as well, but Jaime was the man of the hour here. He was served very well by Cogman's script: his scenes with Bronn, Tyrion, Cersei, and Brienne were of exceedingly high quality. I must say I really like the Wall storyline this year in a way I haven't since Season 1. Kit Harington's new&improved Jon Snow is a welcome sight and it's easy to see why so many black brothers would choose to follow this guy. Bran's story deviation has me quite interested; I like not being sure how it'll play out. Will Jon meet him next Sunday or will Bran's little band manage to slip away while the Night's Watch raiding party keeps the mutineers occupied? The last scene of the episode was such a great moment. It's easy to forget, even with all the dragons and direwolves, that this is a fantasy show. It's nice when the show reminds how truly alien and mysterious things are going to get down the road.

A very strong 9.

Polls are fun though of limited value. People seem overly swayed by strong last scenes or shock factor. Silent episodes almost always get a lower score than they deserve.

Its not as though they forgot that the Hound said he had a code. The only reason the Hound said he wasn't a thief was to set up him being a thief later on, otherwise that would have been a pointless aside. D and D wrote eps. one and three so that "inconsistency" (as many have called it) was purposeful. I don't know why they chose to have him say one thing and then do another, but it wasn't accidental or forgetful on their part. That line was clearly meant to set up this episode's scene.

The guy was being flippant and facetious. Arya put him on the spot there and he dismissed her with a funny retort. While I believe that Hound does have a code, stealing from gullible peasants doesn't strike me as something he's opposed to on principle. He stole in the books as well. Remember the ferrymen incident?

Mr Fixit is a voice of reason as always, here and on wicnet. I'm extremely surprised that this episode has been rated so lowly. It was strong and consistent and moved the plot along a helluva lot without being clunky about it. Currently it has a nine on imdb and a ninety-five on Rotten Tomatoes. I gave it an eight. But really do people think this episode is worse than "the Night Lands"? I just don't see that. Besides the over-politicised and overblown objections to THAT scene (which I by no means share), I can't see why anyone would consider this the worst episode of the entire show.

Thanks. :blush:

Yes, Breaker of Chains is very strong for a transitional episode that checks in on quite a few storylines. Aftermath of the PW was handled very well containing multiple strong scenes with Tywin, Cersei, Tommen, Oberyn, Tyrion, Pod, Tyrells and yeah, THAT SCENE. As a fan of lore, I was especially pleased with Tywin's recounting of various kings of old as well as with the mention that Dorne withstood the Targaryen invasion.

Arya and Hound were a delight as usual and a welcome peak into the lives of smallfolk in war-torn Riverlands.

The Wall moved things at a nice clip, introducing both the WIldlings' plans to draw out the NW out of Castle Black by raiding the Gift and Jon's plan to eliminate the mutineers at Craster's for very sensible reasons - if Mance gets to them first, he'll know that there are only 100, not 1,000 black brother left at CB and then it's Game Over. Sam and Gilly had a nice setup scene that will probably play a role down the line, though it was a bit repetitive, as it didn't reveal anything we didn't already know about them. However, since the show had to re-introduce them this season, I'm willing to cut them some slack on this point.

Dragonstone scenes viewed in isolation are actually quite good. I really enjoyed Davos and Shireen and his Iron Bank plan. (There's certainly a lot of new plans being put into motion this episode, right?) However, I do agree that Dragonstone material feels pretty stagnant since Stannis essentially broods for a season and a half. I look forward to some action here.

Finally, Dany was a blast; an absolutely fantastic scene. Everything there rang true. I giggled at Daario the Inconsequential, apparently the only guy in Dany's inner circle that's no big deal if he dies. I liked how anticlimactic the duel was with the whole Indiana Jones vibe. And Emilia Clarke's command of Valyrian... unbelievable how good and charismatic she is.

A very strong episode, no doubt about it. Around 8.5 or even better.

The internet frenzy is really dumb, yes, and I too hate how people are parading around their "anti-rape" views like it makes them some kind of hero. I'm not in disagreement with you there. But other stuff, like the actual characterization of Stannis, Jaime and Sandor has been very weak and random these past couple of episodes, and fans of the characters have the right to be annoyed at the show screwing around with perfectly fine characters that have been developed rather well until this point (well, except Stannis).

Oh I agree that fans have every right to voice their displeasure if they don't like something.

Though, I must say that I don't agree with your points on Stannis, Jaime, and Sandor. I won't reiterate my thoughts on Jaime (I've done it enough already on these boards); I'll just say that in my view this was a very brutal and ugly turn of events that was nevertheless grounded in established Jaime-Cersei dynamics and I am quite interested to see how the writers will address this in the future. I truly don't think that this amounts to character assassination derailing Jaime's Redemption Train. Writers definitely took a big gamble and we have yet to see how it'll turn out. I am intrigued by the narrative prospects of this decision. Let me leave it at that.

As for Sandor, I'm not sure what the problem is. He was always a hard and brutal man. The first thing we see of him is when he kills a defenseless boy for running away. He's one of Martin's most complex creations and I don't doubt for a second that he's able to club some peasant over the head if there's motivation enough. Yeah, in 4x01 there was that cool man's gotta have a code line, but I saw that as simple a funny retort to Arya's point, not as the acknowledgement that he's this uber-principled man that never stoops to theft. Sandor's and Arya's scenes this episode are really great in my opinion, revealing a fantastic character dynamic between these two unlikely "partners".

On Stannis I agree to a point. Not because I think they botched his characterisation, which I don't, but because Dragonstone seems to be the biggest victim of ASOS's partition into two seasons. Stannis doesn't have that much to do until 4x09, so they're keeping him in limbo mode, going in cirlces and restating all the relevant momets already covered in the last season. So yeah, here I'd have to agree that the Dragonstone material is definitely lacking and isn't all that interesting. But that in my view is a consequence of not enough meat on them bi-seasonal bones and not of Stannis characterisation. Don't worry, by the end of S4 and into S5 he'll be the Stannis you love.

You seem quick to blame supposed book purists getting whiny over changes, and yet you don't consider the real reason it was rated low by some was maybe because of how boring and unnecessarily long and pointless some scenes were (Sam and Gilly), or how rushed and underdeveloped others were (Stannis and Davos). The entire final scene outside Meereen was weirdly directed and edited, and this episode also featured another pointless brothel scene that doesn't develop Oberyn any further than "hey remember how this guy is bisexual and sexually active? Yeah... he still is...". Characters like Jaime and Sandor acted randomly out of character, and some glaring continuity errors popped up, like how Sansa and Dontos leave the wedding in the middle of a perfectly clear warm day, and it's foggy and night in a couple of minutes.

These kind of things are also detractors for an episode's overall quality. Don't get so defensive before you consider other things apart from "hardcore book fans" and this "crazy overblown internet faux-outrage." While I wouldn't say this was the worst episode of the series (that 'honour' goes to The Bear and the Maiden Fair), and not even the worst of the season (that'd be The Lion and The Rose in my opinion), it was definitely in my top ten least favourite episodes of the series.

I'm not certain on which points you and I are in disagreement. You said yourself it's not the worst episode of the series. I said the same.

As for internet faux-outrage, well, it is. Do you think mainstream media care one bit about Jaime's character arc and the supposed damage to it? Do you think they protest because Jaime raping Cersei means the show condones rape, glamorizes and romanticizes it? That this, after all the shit that has happened on the show, is somehow the most morally reprehensible act we've ween? No. They jumped on the bandwagon because they saw the potential for clickbait. Just look at the dates of the published online material. The media outlets had these episodes for weeks in advance. Almost no one made a big fuss over the scene. Actually, many respectable critics noted the interesting deviation from the books and expressed interest in how it will turn out. Then the net explodes in outrage and suddenly everyone publishes articles on inappropriateness of the scene. So, yeah, where media and the internet culture are concerned, it's faux-outrage, an opportunity to stand on a soapbox and show just how progressive they all are. Then they can pat each other on the back and say mission accomplished.

And, by the way, this episode has been rated lower on the forum than any episode before it. Previous record holder was the the season 2 episode "The Night Lands", at 7.07 with 398 votes in. But note the effect I noted above: at 400 votes, _this_ episode was at 7.08. So had "The Night Lands" had as many respondents to the poll as this episode has now, I expect it would be at the 7.00 mark as well.

Quite interesting, really.

An expected reaction by hardcore book fans, fueled by this crazy overblown internet faux-outrage. Does anyone really think this was the worst episode of the show? Come on. It's not even close. Just how last episodes's average was no doubt brought down considerably because of Stannis faux-outrage. Though to be honest, that episode was probably brought up by the Joff hype so maybe, when all is said and done, there we were closer to the truth.

I find the Unsullied reaction a good barometer: this Jaime thing barely registered as something inconceivable and unforgivable on their radars.