Ran

What'd you think?

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We've had three brief scenes with Loras this season. In two of those scenes he comes across as rather dumb, clumsy in his conversation, and also well over Renly. When you have very few scenes for a minor character, it seems to me that it's essential that those scenes convey the character you want to convey. This is why the Blackfish has been consistently depicted as a tough guy, for example -- they want to make an impression that this is, well, a tough guy. With Loras, what they've conveyed this season is something rather a lot weaker, and rather a lot weaker than the character in the novel. They could have easily handled this sort of thing. This scene could have played off more like his very first scene with Sansa, where you can tell he's not really interested but he's not sitting their in awkward silence or saying inane things, and there you go -- not particularly interested, but not a dimwit. (He's not supposed to be stupid, by the by -- I just recalled Catelyn thinking that he appeared lively and intelligent).

Well, to be fair, Loras Tyrell dresses fashionably. So I wouldn't say he's uninterested. But I don't think that babbling about gowns really conveys the character. His conversation with Sansa in ASoS is probably a much better depiction of the way he carries himself and conducts conversations than what they gave us in the show.

Loras rides stallions elsewhere The characterization intended by Loras at the Hand's tourney was that the was clever. They literally spell it out after he wins: the mare was in heat, Gregor Clegane uses brutish aggressive stallions, and that made the difference. Anyone who is stuck on "But... gay guy rides a mare!!!" is being obtuse. The characterization that comes across on the show is that Loras Tyrell is totally over Renly Baratheon, and is also an idiot. Which characterization diminishes the character more? I know, I know, oh oh oh.

You can't read the presentation of the brotherhood and its ideals in ASoS, and then see where they are in AFfC, and pretend that they haven't changed. They changed massively. I'm not sure what else to say about it. It's all quite clear in the books. Just consider how much scarier Lem gets, and notice that the brotherhood is broken, with part of the group apparently with Edric Dayne and the other part with Lady Stoneheart. Almost certainly due to the philosophical differences between those who wanted to adhere to Beric's pursuit of justice and those who wanted vengeance. (This dichotomy is why Arya's sojourn in Harrenhal last year was a screw up, actually.) Thoros is with Stoneheart presumably because she's resurrected and he feels some responsibility or some purpose in remaining around, but it's pretty clear that he's not in moral agreement with what she commands them to do, unlike with Beric.

The show needs Gendry to fill the Edric role, this is true. This does not mean the BwB had to sell him out, however. They could have had Melisandre tell him his parentage and convinced him that he should join his uncle. She could have seduced him. She could have found some other way to convince him. Basically, they could have done it another way, without too much more or less dialog than they had in the version in the show. They didn't, though. Nonsense. Thoros even remarks how they've fallen since they lost Beric: I mean, now, that detail isn't really going to fly in the show. It's not important, I guess, but... it adds something, to tone and theme, if they ever revisit the BwB. Maybe the whole point is that they never are, and so it doesn't really matter how they depict them and so on.

An uncle he doesn't know, and it's not clear they've been told he's related to Stannis, and in any case, again, it's clear their "brother" did not want to go. It's a very, very different situation from the Arya thing.

They say they're brothers. They're a brotherhood. They protect one another, and they strive to protect the realm as best they can. Their loyalty is to the Seven Kingdoms. I mean, you can understand why these men follow Beric -- he has become egalitarian, he has shared knighthood with them, he's given them a common cause and he has made the greatest of them no better than the least. That's pretty amazing. On the show, they really seemed to be going there, but this episode kind of just kills that. Why couldn't they have Melisandre just convince, seduce, or lie to Gendry to make him come of his own free will? I don't really get it. Arya could even still blame Beric for letting Gendry leave, so it's not really a need to create Arya-BwB conflict, I think.

In the show, he's been welcomed into their brotherhood, and then they sell him out. That's pretty low. Arya was never part of the brotherhood, OTOH. And while they're looking to profit, they're taking her to where she wants to be, whereas it's clear that Gendry doesn't want to go with Melisandre.

Possibly I'm still too ill, but what you're saying is quite impossible for me to figure out. I don't understand where Martin was supposed to be ambiguous. Rhaegar was a fair lad. Jaime was a fair lad. This makes them gay? Are all the Tyrells gay because they have roses on their arms and they live in Highgarden? Riding a mare makes you gay? Is the Faith gay, because the rainbow is an important emblem? Is Littlefinger gay, because he dresses well? I mean, color me very thoroughly confused. I don't see the ambiguities. There's no ambiguity that Loras Tyrell is gay. But it has nothing to do with his having used a mare once, because he was a member of the Rainbow Guard, because he's good looking, because he's associated with flowers. It's because, uh, he's gay. Whereas the show has failed to actually indicate that he misses Renly or that Renly's death has had any lingering effect on him this season -- despite the writer of "Kissed by Fire" saying that that was the impression they wanted to give -- and has made him incapable of holding a conversation with a young lady unless he distract himself with talking about details of her wedding gown and the fine point of difference between a broach and a pin. These are their choices. Their characterization of him in the aired episodes is pretty clear. Can they change things around with the last four episodes, and provide something more to the character to re-establish the connection to Renly and so on? Maybe they will, but I'm dubious. Not least because it's really three episodes, since I suspect episode 9 will be focused solely around the Twins.

No he doesn't. He has a character who last knew Renly when he was 6 years old call him "copper", not "weak steel". Doesn't have anything to do with Loras, though. So if you're not a bruiser, you're falling into a gay male stereotype... ? You know, nothing says he's weak or "below average" in strength, and everything points against it. He may well be stronger than bigger men with less training and natural gifts for it. (I always imagined him as having a wiry strength, more of a "fast twitch" muscle than "slow twitch" kind of guy. I keep thinking of Eric Davis, who would have gone 40-40 in '87 if he hadn't missed a big chunk of the season.) This sounds like young Jaime Lannister, or Rhaegar Targaryen.... In fact, Loras has curling brown hair. I never knew being good looking, lean, and having long hair made you any kind of stereotype at all. Once ever, so far as we know, as a trick to make sure he beat Gregor Clegane. His family arms feature a flower, his family seat is associated with them, and in the world of Westeros, there's nothing remotely stereotypical about being associated with flowers. Well, maybe "Typical Tyrell". Leo Longthorn, the Queen of Thorns... they all get associated with flowers, one way or another, if they're of any note. Which Martin has noted was never named as a reference to the rainbow emblem of the LGBT movement, and came purely from the fact that Renly loved pageantry and he had established that rainbows are an emblem of the Faith. He's portrayed as a legendary knight who half the maids in the realm want to marry and all the boys want to be like, the sort of young man Robert himself said a man would be proud to call a son... and who also happens to be gay.

Westeros.org ratings as of May 8, 2013: Season 1 Episode 1: 8.31 (of 229 votes) | ((1*0)+(2*0)+(3*0)+(4*1)+(5*4)+(6*15)+(7*38)+(8*60)+(9*68)+(10*43))/229 Episode 2: 8.17 (of 269 votes) | ((1*0)+(2*0)+(3*0)+(4*2)+(5*3)+(6*17)+(7*39)+(8*98)+(9*84)+(10*26))/269 Episode 3: 7.87 (of 235 votes) | ((1*1)+(2*0)+(3*1)+(4*6)+(5*4)+(6*15)+(7*52)+(8*76)+(9*61)+(10*19))/235 Episode 4: 7.99 (of 278 votes) | ((1*1)+(2*2)+(3*6)+(4*3)+(5*9)+(6*24)+(7*37)+(8*67)+(9*89)+(10*40))/278 Episode 5: 8.64 (of 264 votes) | ((1*0)+(2*2)+(3*4)+(4*3)+(5*1)+(6*6)+(7*23)+(8*48)+(9*103)+(10*74))/264 Episode 6: 8.80 (of 234 votes) | ((1*0)+(2*0)+(3*3)+(4*3)+(5*2)+(6*6)+(7*12)+(8*37)+(9*98)+(10*73))/234 Episode 7: 8.12 (of 228 votes) | ((1*1)+(2*1)+(3*1)+(4*7)+(5*7)+(6*13)+(7*33)+(8*55)+(9*66)+(10*44))/228 Episode 8: 9.04 (of 269 votes) | ((1*0)+(2*0)+(3*0)+(4*1)+(5*4)+(6*5)+(7*13)+(8*47)+(9*80)+(10*119))/269 Episode 9: 8.77 (of 352 votes) | ((1*2)+(2*4)+(3*2)+(4*4)+(5*11)+(6*13)+(7*18)+(8*45)+(9*93)+(10*160))/352 Episode 10: 9.32 (of 382 votes) | ((1*1)+(2*0)+(3*2)+(4*24)+(5*2)+(6*6)+(7*11)+(8*51)+(9*135)+(10*171))/382 Average: 8.50 Season 2 Episode 1: 7.57 (of 565 votes) | ((1*2)+(2*0)+(3*8)+(4*7)+(5*30)+(6*43)+(7*146)+(8*193)+(9*92)+(10*42))/565 Episode 2: 7.07 (of 391 votes) | ((1*7)+(2*5)+(3*10)+(4*12)+(5*27)+(6*50)+(7*97)+(8*101)+(9*61)+(10*20))/391 Episode 3: 8.55 (of 431 votes) | ((1*1)+(2*2)+(3*3)+(4*1)+(5*5)+(6*17)+(7*33)+(8*102)+(9*176)+(10*91))/431 Episode 4: 7.7 (of 418 votes) | ((1*5)+(2*3)+(3*10)+(4*8)+(5*19)+(6*34)+(7*68)+(8*119)+(9*101)+(10*51))/418 Episode 5: 8.25 (of 409 votes) | ((1*2)+(2*1)+(3*3)+(4*5)+(5*12)+(6*17)+(7*50)+(8*109)+(9*142)+(10*68))/409 Episode 6: 8.11 (of 435 votes)| ((1*2)+(2*7)+(3*9)+(4*11)+(5*16)+(6*21)+(7*42)+(8*84)+(9*140)+(10*101))/435 Episode 7: 7.87 (of 399 votes) | ((1*5)+(2*8)+(3*9)+(4*7)+(5*13)+(6*22)+(7*52)+(8*107)+(9*113)+(10*63))/399 Episode 8: 7.3 (of 390 votes) | ((1*5)+(2*5)+(3*10)+(4*15)+(5*18)+(6*45)+(7*87)+(8*104)+(9*69)+(10*32))/390 Episode 9: 9.5 (of 714 votes) | ((1*2)+(2*0)+(3*5)+(4*3)+(5*2)+(6*8)+(7*15)+(8*28)+(9*122)+(10*527))/714 Episode 10: 7.6 (of 899 votes) | ((1*18)+(2*14)+(3*23)+(4*32)+(5*46)+(6*72)+(7*111)+(8*192)+(9*231)+(10*155))/899 Average: 7.95 Season 3 Episode 1: 7.58 (of 753 votes) | ((1*2)+(2*3)+(3*3)+(4*17)+(5*26)+(6*67)+(7*182)+(8*286)+(9*123)+(10*42))/753 Episode 2: 7.64 (of 637 votes) | ((1*6)+(2*8)+(3*7)+(4*13)+(5*20)+(6*50)+(7*144)+(8*191)+(9*141)+(10*57))/637 Episode 3: 8.41 (of 668 votes) | ((1*4)+(2*1)+(3*4)+(4*6)+(5*16)+(6*10)+(7*69)+(8*178)+(9*270)+(10*110))/668 Episode 4: 9.22 (of 797 votes) | ((1*0)+(2*1)+(3*0)+(4*2)+(5*2)+(6*12)+(7*25)+(8*102)+(9*264)+(10*389))/797 Episode 5: 8.81 (of 642 votes) | ((1*2)+(2*0)+(3*2)+(4*1)+(5*7)+(6*13)+(7*32)+(8*133)+(9*274)+(10*178))/642 Episode 6: 7.32 (of 661 votes)| ((1*6)+(2*9)+(3*8)+(4*19)+(5*35)+(6*78)+(7*163)+(8*205)+(9*89)+(10*49))/661 Average to date: 8.16 | (7.58+7.64+7.32+8.41+9.22+8.81)/6 Series average to date (26 episodes): 8.21 (8.31+8.17+7.87+7.99+8.64+8.8+8.12+9.04+8.77+9.32+7.57+7.07+8.55+7.7+8.25+8.11+7.87+7.3+9.5+7.6+7.58+7.64+8.41+9.22+8.81+7.32)/26

Loras has no siblings on the show. Willas has never been mentioned, nor Garlan.

With 630 votes in, the episode rates 7.30 of 10 now. Gone down a little bit since the last tally. (I often find this to be the case with all the episodes, though -- with time to mull it over, later voters seem to like them just a little bit less well than early voters).

It's not. It's the worst of the season, but not of the series, at least on this forum. ETA: Tallying it up, The Night Lands scored a 7.07 from 391 voters.

The forum has things rated rather differently. I believe the lowest we had was for Night Lands, which scored just above 7.0, I think.

She thought she was safe, spying on Littlefinger... ... until she took an arrow to the knee (and other, more vital parts). I'm serious. There's an arrow in her knee. I can't imagine it's coincidence.

This one is very mediocre on a writing and characterization level, I felt, and it's probably my least favorite of this season. Obviously you need to retool to start gearing up, but... meh.

Fringed sleeves, not French, I'd guess.

That George is fine with it (we should qualify that by noting that we mean fine in a broad sense; at the level of individual details, there are things he isn't necessarily in agreement with on the show) doesn't really mean anyone else has to be. It's a personal thing, isn't it?

What'd you think?

Spoiler-free discussion of the show goes here, for those who want to discuss the episode without any reference to the books whatsoever or other spoiler material This topic should open automatically around the start of airing.

Book spoiler discussion of the show goes here, for those who want to discuss the episode in relation to the books, and with reference to spoilers from them. This topic should open automatically around the start of airing.