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Black Crow

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  1. Actually, its long years [I won't say how long] since I last read Tolkein, but yes, I'm suggesting that those swords placed on Stark tombs were not intended to keep their dusty corpses lying there, but to prevent their riding the cold winds
  2. I think the point here is that if R+L=J is true, the significance is not that Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and destined for the Iron Throne, but is the son of Lya Stark, "a son of Winterfell" like that son of Bael the Bard But for now, good night all and we'll continue this particular heresy tomorrow
  3. I refer to my answer of a few minutes ago. In Tolkein terms the Others are not Orcs but Nazgul and I think that some of them may once have been Starks
  4. Yes, though I'm inclined to look at it slightly differently. The Others are not a race, but individuals who were once men
  5. As I said [or tried to say] earlier, I think there may be a a significant and widespread but obscure misunderstanding regarding the Others, to wit an assumption that the Others are a hostile race and that lots of them are on the point of invading the south. I'm suggesting that there are only a few of them and that they were once men Jon, I'm suggesting has a part to play, but alongside other Starks, including Bran Adding: in Tolkein terms, I'm suggesting the Others are not Orcs but Nazgul
  6. GRRM: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”
  7. Ah well, while I see Jon becoming an Other, that isn't necessarily the same as "joining" the Others. Remember Osha; Winter's got no King That is perhaps the trouble and the solution. It may not be a matter of defeating/destroying the Others in a big battle, but giving them the king [Jon Stark] that they need
  8. I don't think the dream [dreams?] literally foreshadow raising the dead kings in Winterfell. Rather its not a matter of him being rejected by them, but his fighting against joining them. R+L=J may be true but the importance of it is that Jon is the son of Lya Stark
  9. This of course is pretty much what I've been arguing for a long time now and emphasises the importance of getting somebody on the inside. Bran is obviously in a position to learn but I don't see him doing it on his own. Rather I see it as a collective return of the Starks to their roots - beginning with Jon
  10. They don't seem "wargable" to me either. My argument is that I think they ARE wargs who are capable of forming their own bodies from snow and ice rather than taking over someone else Happy to discuss further, but right now I'm off to bed
  11. Providing his real body is still alive, Ghost could indeed form a stepping stone to trying to take over some innocent third party, but the immediate problem there is that Jon, however powerful, is a newbie when it comes to skinchanging. Varamyr on the other hand was an experienced expert and the human Thistle managed to fight him off. It also comes back to my earlier point, why kill Jon ? Simply re-enacting Varamyr's attempt to skinchange/warg Thistle hardly justifies the effort. Forming himself a new body of ice and snow, showing where the Others come from and revealing the Stark connection is MUCH more radical
  12. I'm dubious about the second option. It seems a bit of a stretch that a quite different party should be able/willing to duplicate a mysterious process from legendary times. I'm much more inclined to see them as one and the same. As to lying with women to produce those "half-human children", no I agree that those demons made of ice and snow who slew Ser Waymar didn't stop off at Craster's on the way home... I think bearing in mind we're talking about legendary history rather than forensic reconstruction, that there's probably an easy way to explain it If we look at the Others as wargs/skinchangers, cut off from their original bodies - remember how Varamyr described riding the cold winds after his original body died - then lying with women before that death would produce children who were not just skinchangers, but skinchangers who could form their own bodies from ice and show rather than be compelled to fade away in their familiars Starks ?
  13. Very tempting though it is to suggest a Coldhands outcome, I remain very conscious that Jon's apparent demise was preceded by the Varamyr prologue and that while Coldhands offers a solution I'm not convinced that outcome would be radical enough to justify killing Jon
  14. GRRM has described them as 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” The description that they are “made of ice” is exactly how Stannis references them as “made of snow and ice” and then turning back to GRRM, he confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together." So in short, the Others seen in the books supposedly ride the cold winds and then appear in human form but are made of snow and ice held together by magic.
  15. It’s a bit quiet at the moment, so I think I’ll expand on something I said a few posts back. Midway through ADWD GRRM apparently killed off Jon Snow Why ? OK there are immediate motives in the story which explain why certain minor characters took it into their heads to stick knives in him, even Queen Cersei was keen on the idea. So textually we can explain why he ends up face down in the [winter] snow with puncture wounds in his back. But why did GRRM kill him ? Why did he, as the creator and only writer of this happy tale, feel that he needed to kill off a major character at this point – and remember the character is geographically isolated – and then turn around to hint that he may not be as dead as a Dodo ? His death actually comes against the background of a major mystery and I suggest is part of the key to learning the truth behind that mystery. And the mystery? Who are the Others ? Supposedly they are the big bad and are on the point of sweeping south to kill all living things etc. They have been a looming threat since the very first page, but thus far all we’ve actually seen are the group of six [6] individuals who killed Ser Waymar Royce and one who was more or less accidentally pinked by Sam in the retreat from the Fist – and for all we know he may have been one of the first six. Apart from that we only have second and third hand stories and legends. So yes they exist and yes they are hostile, but otherwise we really know nothing. Enter Jon Stabbed multiple times, he falls and the last conscious thought recorded is a call to Ghost [his direwolf]. This is widely and pretty plausibly interpreted as his soul taking refuge in Ghost. But there’s a problem, a big problem. As is customary ADWD started off with a prologue relevant to something about to happen in the book. In this case it was the story of an unpleasant character called Varamyr, who told us about how warging works. He could switch bodies, but when his original body died his soul was first cut free and then drawn into his most powerful familiar. At first sight that seems straightforward. Jon dies, but his soul is cut free and ends up as a guest in Ghost. But what next? Varamyr is pretty clear that once the original body is dead the warg can neither return nor switch to another host. So Jon is stuck. Or is he? We’ve looked at the Others very carefully. GRRM has described them as 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” The description that they are “made of ice” is exactly how Stannis references them as “made of snow and ice” and the turning back to GRRM, he confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together." So in short, the Others seen in the books supposedly ride the cold winds and then appear in human form but are made of snow and ice held together by magic. Can Jon [being a Stark] therefore leave Ghost to ride the cold winds as Varamyr did, but then, unable to enter another living host, form himself a new body of snow and ice, thus confirming GRRM’s gnomic remark that he’s not dead [“the Others are not dead”] and so continuing as a major character and revealing the true nature of the Otherrs.
  16. As Seams points out, there are repeated connection between the Tullys and the Blackwoods, and Brynden Blackwood himself remarks: "I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden." "I have an uncle Brynden," Bran said. "He's my mother's uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he's called." "Your uncle may have been named for me..."
  17. Whether or not you choose to accept how much previous knowledge the reader of this passage [which caused great excitement when it was first published] the fact that Bloodraven is a Blackwood is directly relevant to this thread about taking sides in the Blackwood/Bracken feud
  18. There was absolutely nothing in the Mummers' Farce which identified Bloodraven as a Targaryen As to the books, which is what we're discussing here, Bran [Stark] has only encountered Bloodraven as Brynden Blackwood and believes him to be the Crow. There is no Targaryen involvement.
  19. Lineage and identity are one and the same - especially when we bring crows into it
  20. The blue eyes of death may very well be relevant here, but if so it may not be a matter of a blue-eyed Jon reaching the crypts with an army of dead. If Jon is indeed to return as one of the blue-eyed lot it may be precisely because its where the Starks come from and belonged - before the Nights King was betrayed by his brother. Could be fun
  21. I rather thought it came into play when Bloodraven introduced himself to Bran in the cave
  22. He is the son of Melissa Blackwood. She named him* and appears to have brought him up at Blackwood Hall after she was replaced as the King's mistress by Barbara Bracken *when telling this to Bran, he also makes it clear that Brynden/Brandon are the same
  23. The real point, I think, about the Blackwood-Bracken feud, is not a question of right or wrong, but rather that it exists in the first place Bloodraven was once [is?]seen as a Targaryen loyalist. He certainly fought for the Targaryens in the Blackfyre Rebellions, but arguably his real battle was with his half brother Aegor [Bracken] Rivers, and now as he sits in the cave of skulls is he still a Targaryen bastard or is he Brynden [Bran] Blackwood = after all it was his mother who named him
  24. Sticking to the books - as distinct from the Mummers version, there is very little information and only two appearances - a group of six in the prologue to AGoT and then the lone individual pinked by Sam in the retreat from the Fist. That's it. I'm not going to take over this thread by going to lengthy arguments anent the evidence in the books, but if you want to look for a comparison to LOTR, they are not Orcs. They are not a a race, far less forming a formidable army. They are, however, very like Tolkein's Nazgul.
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