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noshowjones

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  1. noshowjones

    Bakker LVI: the Rectum of Creation

    Was it honeyed or anus you objected to? haha. I apologize. I am not sure how to quote from one thread to the next. I'll bold your quotes: That Mimara is an actual prophet. Not in the sense that God speaks to her, because the Eärwan God-of-gods is the demiurge, it does not care, isn't conscious, has no active will. And not that she speaks to The God, again, because the Eärwan God-of-gods doesn't listen. Rather, that she is the perspective of God from the mortal viewpoint. That is, the view of God, from God (because The God is infinite), by God, through Mimara. But the kicker is that God is not conscious and doesn't care. But Mimara does. So, in this way Mimara can actually judge, where The God cannot. This is the same as Christ as judge, in the Christian sense. That is, Christ came to "humanize" Old Testament God, by allowing God to suffer, to be mortal, to be limited in a way God could not otherwise be. Mimara fulfills that same role. It's just that we have only narratively read the "Old Testament" by Bakker so far. And so Mimara's narrative role is totally incomplete. That's not really thematic as much as it is plot. And that plot went nowhere in this series. If he publishes the next I hope he does more with it, because i agree that it could be interesting. After which fact?  That interview was in 2008. After the fact that it becomes obvious that people thought there were some sexism issues in his books. Yes, Eärwa is more patriarchal to display how bad it would be if we actually lived in a world that our pre-modern ancestors thought we lived in. That is, if the world really was determinately patriarchal as people thought it was. In the same way that the world was as meaningful and moral. In the same way that the gods were real. That Eärwa is akin to actual Hell because of this. That fact that you object to the character of Eärwa proves Bakker's point: that the pre-modern world is sexist and capricious and akin to Hell. If he included token female roles, or empowered more female characters, he would be saying instead that the gross, arbitrary nature of Eärwa isn't so bad, because you could transcend it if you just really tried. But the fact is that Eärwa is morally stacked against this, so much so that it is basically impossible. And this is what should offend our modern sensibilities. I don't think he is doing anything groundbreaking by writing a book that is as patriarchal as everyone back then thought it was. There are a shitload of fantasy novels like that. Is he doing anything daring or new by writing the same? But that's beside the point, because even in a time when people legitimately thought females were objectively inferior, there were exceptions to the rule. There are none in Bakkerverse. Your argument, while valid to many Bakker fans, doesn't really hold up. It would still be an equally objectionable world if he included a couple of empowered female characters, because real life iron age societies are objectionable by modern sensibilities even though we know there were such exceptions. We know a lack of effort wasn't the only thing keeping women from succeeding because reality, not just his books, has a gross arbitrary nature. Effort or lack thereof wasn't (and still isn't) the only thing keeping people from bettering their situation. I think you take that the wrong way, because Eärwa, again, is fashioned directly off a worse-off version of our own past. That is, the past where the "arbitrary nature" of reality isn't just opinion, it is a fact. Yes, he intentionally fashioned a world worse than reality. I think anyone applying a little academic rigor would question his motives. He hasn't done anything to earn me taking his explanations at face value. In fact, he's done the opposite. So, yes, in Eärwa, a strong women would just be a token, because the sexist nature of reality there would demand it be so. Substituting a woman in a traditional masculine role isn't really feminism. It's egalitarian, in a sense, and perhaps a victory for some women but isn't a victory for femininity at all. Because it actually discounts the importance of femininity itself, saying it should be replaced by the masculine role. What then of the feminine role? What value does feminine virtue have, if our default position is to assume it be better off replaced by a masculine role? You seem to want things to be very cut-and-dry here, but I'm not seeing it anywhere near as such. Could Bakker right better women characters? Yes. Is his depiction of a misogynistic world sexist? Well, yes, in the sense that it highlights how shitty and sexist it is the believe that kind of crap. Is then Bakker a misogynist? Nah, not buying it. I would argue that you are the one who wants it simple, because the actual feminist argument to this is that gender roles (what we deem as masculine and feminine) are socially engineered. This is evidenced by the fact that what we consider masculine (or feminine) behavior is not the same across cultures or history. What do you perceive as the feminine role? Having children? Making a home? What is feminine virtue? The very idea of femininity as something women have to adhere to is the root of sexism. If you want to talk about "traditional" male roles, then he could have substituted women into traditionally feminine roles ie shield maidens or female warriors which have been present in history. Scandinavian regions had female warriors. Africa and Asia had several female dominated societies in which women participated in warfare prior to the modern advent of "equal rights." I don't know if Bakker is a misogynist. I've never met the guy. But the more I debate people about this the more skeptical I become. But to take another example, Flannery O'Connor wrote a lot of stories that engaged with racism, and a lot of people don't want to say she was a racist herself. But if you read all of her short stories, you'll find at least one which will lead to the inevitable conclusion that she was a product of her time, and as such, had some racist beliefs. Edit - You reposted while i was typing. My bad:)
  2. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    The Inevitable Honeyed Anus
  3. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    Yes. That’s possible. Bakker is just pretty imprecise in his writing. I do think he’s a middling writer. Not great and not terrible. I kept reading because he’s a great storyteller. Which is why I felt so much disappointment at the conclusion of tUC. Ill address your longer reply to my post shortly when I make it back to a computer. Too much to write and quote from a phone.
  4. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    The simplest explanation is bad writing. Same as the shark comparison I mentioned.
  5. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    Hahaha. Yeah. I caught that too when he was doing the meditation. I just chalked it up to bad writing. Kellhus also compares a skin spy to a shark and there was little reason to believe he had any experience with sharks or knowledge that they had cartilage for bones.
  6. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    What do you think he retconned here? I didn’t read anything that stuck out to me.
  7. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    Do tell. I don’t think I agree, but what is the theme of the series and how is Mimara important to that theme? Or which particular theme do you think is most important (I can come up with several themes for it off the top of my head) Yeah, I’ve been on boards a long time even if I haven’t been posting. I’ve read the interviews. This all just seems like BS he came up with after the fact. Because reality (which the interviewer seems to ignore) is that Bakker’s world was more patriarchal than the reality that inspired it. He went out of his way to create a world where it was worse for women. Where exceptions didn’t exist (be they individual or societal—female dominated societies existed in human history). The lack of nuance I mentioned is supported by that. And by the fact that he did nothing to subvert the patriarchy in the series. The most powerful women in the series, to a one, were treated as sex objects. He even transformed one from a crone into a sexpot. Hell, there were situations where it would have made sense to have female warriors (as opposed to just tokenism) such as shield maidens in northern sranc-infested lands, but there weren’t. They are surrounded by sranc, and still they ignore the fighting potential of half their population. Because vaginas. The argument that Bakker makes in that interview is itself a sexist argument, because he’s he can’t conceive of a world where a strong female character isn’t a token. It’s a common argument among racists and sexists alike. He then bolsters it with the idea that confirmation bias will just point people the direction they want to go, but I defended Bakker (in my head arguments against the naysayers like a cracked moon) until I read about the whale mothers. I made it five and half books in thinking, he’s gonna show em. He did. Just not in the way I anticipated. Haha. I remain a fan of the series. I’m listening to the audiobook of tUC at this moment. But the dude has some issues with women. I can think of no other conclusion.
  8. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    Yeah, maybe. But there wasn’t anything else in the series to bolster “misogyny is bad” as a theme of the book.
  9. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    I’m not sure I believe Bakker knew his depictions of women were problematic until someone pointed out they were. And if he didn’t realize they were problematic then it’s a textbook example of misogyny. He did nothing in the series, as he said he would, to change my mind about that. I kept thinking he would, but he did not. The fact remains that he perhaps didn’t do a particularly good job because he was incapable of the nuanced thought required to do a good job of it.
  10. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    It’s just a bit of a strange argument. I suspect it an author wrote a sci fi book in which the hyperdrive could only be operated by men because of (insert pseudo science reason) then people would accuse that author of mysogyny. Or at the least, question that author’s intentions. Likewise, if Altered Carbon had an episode where they explained they could “cure” gay folks from their sinful desires by tinkering with their DHF, the show runners would be called out for homophobia. Im glad you clarified your argument. As in everything in life, it depends. Edit - as others have said, there are a number of threads with people complaining about the bad science in sci fi on the basis of it just being bad science.
  11. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    I think you’re quoting the wrong person here. I’ve stated I have issues with the science in Altered Carbon. I’m trying to figure out exactly what Callan S is trying to argue.
  12. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    There is potential for intense moral issues in AC. They just don’t engage with them. Your original point was that people don’t get that bent out of shape about the impossibility of AC technology the way they do about whale mothers. Correct? Edit - and you believe that’s because the whale mothers engage with morality in a way sci fi doesn’t?
  13. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    The show isn’t deep enough to really explore moral issues. They touch on what it means for religion if people can live forever, but give it a superficial treatment. They kind of touch on what gender means if you can swap bodies at will, and that’s interesting, but not explored very deeply. Ditto for murder/violence. What does it mean to sell your body to get murdered if you can swap into a new body afterwards? It’s what 10 episodes in a single season? There’s much less there than 7 novels.
  14. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    This isn’t an Altered Carbon discussion thread. Do you think I don’t have issues with it?
  15. noshowjones

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    No. I found a lot of Altered Carbon implausible.
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