Woman of War

6 hours ago, Philpenn said:

^^  Don't think the 3 Eyed Raven in the show is Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers like he is in the books.  Can't recall him ever being called/calling himself that, or even Bloodraven ever being mentioned by anyone.

 

On the same note, has anyone on the show ever called that Umber at Winterfell Smalljon, or even just Jon?  Kind of doubt the show is getting that specific.  Hell, the Greatjon isn't even dead on the show.  He sure as shit wasn't at the Red Wedding.

The three eyed Raven can't be Bloodraven since he said that he had been a thousand years in that cave

This was an excellent episode.

I am not one  who always needs  wild action scenes and  breathtaking fights though I love them from time to time. But I am not bored without them.

I enjoy subtleties just as much and there were a lot of it. Cersei-Tommen-Jaime-High Sparrow, now we know why they needed a good actor for Tommen. Sansa and Briennne, Sansa and Theon, Meera and Asha, sorry, Yara is Asha to me, I am not tone deaf.

A propos, the music was not as spectacular as in he first episode but just as good.

I loved it when Tyrion told the dragons that touching childhood story exactly like it was in the books. Tyrion is bitter now but he could really stop going at Varys, we got it, writers. Let him be bitter elsewhere. But Varys looking at Tyrion - let the forum burn

Arya desperately fighting where there was nothing, that was so Arya.

Now we all want to know if Jon is still the same nice guy. I would not like it if having been dead has no impact at all, if he can simply go on and have a complete and normal human life after that. Martin knows his philosophy, will he belittle death as ultimate challenge, as ultimate affront to mankind? 

What I did I not like was Roose getting killed, he should have continued to be the great villain he was and McElhatton was fantastic. Walda and her baby - that was to be expected, after Shireen my soul has turned to ice.

The man of my heart watched with me and despite loving the episode he would certainly give no more than 8 for a very trivial reason: the episode was too dark, for some parts we could not see much since we don't have a movie hall at home.

I gave it an 8.

there was Dorne....ok....we know by now...it won't be over since there are the two assassins left, so let's see what the show is going to make of them. I nurture a tiny sparkle of hope that Areo is not dead in the end, I guess I am delusional but he did not deserve this banality of an exit.

And the Varys/Tyrion dialogue was a bit lacking, we know that Tyrion makes cock jokes by now. If they want to present his cynicism they could have found something else! I expect more from Tyrion, make better use of Dinklage!

I loved Cersei, Headey was great, and Jaime, this is promising and it is far better for the story if Jaime and Cersei do not fall apart so soon.

Theon and Sansa running was so well done, the light, the colors. It's always Sansa who gets the best coloring, the best use of light and optical effects, magical. Yes, there is inconsistency with dogs and surviving the water. I have run marathons myself at below zero degrees C. If they had taken their clothes over their head before going into the water they could have been fine. But this is nitpicking, it does not diminish the beauty of the scene. I liked the desperate moment of closeness between the two.

And the oath was so beautiful. Of course Sansa takes every advice she can get, in that case from Theon, her next advisor may be Pod or Brienne. It would rather be unbelievable if Sansa in that situation could have recited the oath properly. And I am sure there is a reason Pod has to be established, once again, as being far more clever than he appears. He did his best to fight, touching.

Davis was, once again, great. The athmosphere at the wall, everything had that melancholic tension. 

And I liked how the Melisandre revelation was done. She had given up, no need anymore to keep any illusion not for others nor for herself, withthat look into the mirror she said goodbye to the world and she went to bed, maybe hoping she might sleep forever.

yes, they had the courage to show a really old woman naked, nice subversion of all image of GOT.

 

 

 

But that's the point at that part of their story. Dany is lost and is trying to find her way again. That's the point of the Daznak's Pit scene when she embraces her heritage for the first time in a long while. Tyrion is a mess and quite reasonably so given what happened in ASOS.

I didn't like Feast at all on first read. Like you I wanted to read about Tyrion particularly. There are problems with it but on reread you do start to notice the qualities in it.

There are maybe one or two too many Brienne chapters going nowhere and we probably didn't need to see Areo Hotah's or Arys Oakheart's POV in Dorne. And in Dance we could have had Quentyn turn up in Meereen without his POV in getting there after establishing through Dorne chapters that he is going there. There are problems but there are also a number of genuinely great chapters and sequences. Some editing tweaks and they wouldn't be that far off books 1-3, though clearly that ship has sailed.

I'd sign every word you wrote about Feast and Dance. I loved both books with the exception of, well, some chapters.

And I was really disappointed that they did not present my favorite character's, Tyrion's, descent into moral and emotional misery in the show, the more a pity since they have an actor with Dinklage who could have given us all that and yet return to the complex antihero character Tyrion we will root for when the story goes on. A character may have been down there and yet he can decide to do the right thing - and is not beyond that artificial moral event horizon lesser books try to sell to us. In some undefined future I would love to read an interview with D&D why they decided to take away from Tyrion and from Dinklage - beyond the always working and certainly realistic excuse lack of screen time.

There are other issues like why is Ellaria not the voice of peace and reason, meaning Martin's voice, but the voice of revenge? Will they give her a slow and cruel learning arc at the expense of one or more of her daughters? A character who seeks revenge over all is doomed in Martin's universe, one of the most important author's messages. And readers who cheer for cheap catharic revenge will be disappointed.

But it is the message, the spirit, that has to be kept in, not the details. Some of us love some of the characters and their story while others, who would have thought, love other elements. We all have different favorite characters and of course their respective story is the essential one that should be sacrosanct.

Some changes are necessary, given that there are seven series and, who would have thought, 500 fans have 1000 different opinions here.

I e.g. love the changes done to Cersei, she is better and more complex in the show. I believe the changes done to Sansa are a good thing or at least will pay off in the end. The actress is great where she is but would be a miscast as little girl charming hollow boys. I do not miss much of the Ironborn apart from Asha. The animalistic sex appeal of one eyed pirates killing women is lost on me. Remember that dance group where the female dancers landed right on the erect penises of the male ones? Ouch!!!! I can do without. Ridiculous writing from Martin's side, sorry. Talk about sexposition in the show! A big LOL! Actually i do not think that showing sex and naked people, called "nudity" in US America-speak, is anyhow negative. Like everything else it is only bad when poorly done - which sometimes happened in the show. But there would have been no excuse for including that disastrous dance scene from the books.

And what is "gratitious"??? Gratitious dinner descriptions, elaboration of costumes and dresses (I love the costume design in the show), gratitious sex, gratitious architecture descriptions - everything that puts flesh on the bare story bones is gratitious. Everything that makes a story, books or series, come alive. Puritans stay away!

I have some issues with the books and yet I love them more than most I have ever read.

And I have some issues with the show. And yet I love it.

Maybe the last episode was not more than a nine due to the overuse of cliffhangers, certainly something done in favor of the author, so he can tell his own story first.

But I gave it a ten since I am thoroughly annoyed about the insulting, poor mannered and pubertarian schoolyard bully way some people treat the showmakers in this forum, not necessarily in this thread. (Though I would not know, I have the worst on ignore ;) )The showmakers are after all artists like me, only on another field. Why would they ever take any critic serious that personally insults them and calls them names. I guess they have given up reading this forum at all, the bridges will be burned by now.

Someone asked me today why I bother watching the show if I think it's so bad. Well, the show brought me to the books. I watched S1E1 at my girlfriend's insistence and fell in love with the thing. I watched the whole of season 1 that day and borrowed a copy of AGoT, to see what they were like. I read about a third of it during the night and the next day I went and bought books 1-5. So I'm eternally grateful to the show for bringing me to the books. And I genuinely thought that it was some of the best stuff on TV. I watched seasons 2 and 3, and although they had flaws, I thought that they were still pretty great. Season 4 was when I thought things started going wobbly. But I still enjoyed it and afterwards I looked to season 5 with anticipation. I was looking forward to some of the changes that they would make. But this season has been poor. It left in stuff that should have been cut, it removed stuff that should have been left in. The writing got sloppy and, at times, bad. The leaps of logic required to justify certain narratives became too much. The failures in continuity happened more and more often. Even the acting took a hit this year. But I've never been a hate watcher. I watch each episode hoping for it to be the great show that it once was. Every episode this year I hoped against the increasingly unlikely outcome that the episode would be great, or even good.

I want this show to be great. And that means criticising it when it makes mistakes. And this year there were plenty.

I wished more of those heavily critical posters would admit that they first of all want the show to be great. Actually love and hatred, not indifference belong together as emotional investment. Which in no way justfies the hatespeak towards the showmakers in many posts, that is simply juvenile.

"The scene in which Jaime Lannister was finally able to confess his paternity to Myrcella was downright touching"

-andy greenwald, grantland

"The mutiny against Jon Snow isn't meant only level to be satisfying to the audience — Jon is among the show's purest heroes, after all — yet it's not hard to understand why Alliser, Olly, and the others think he deserves it."

-alan sepinwall, hitfix

" In a beautiful overhead shot, we see the Bolton forces closing in on the ranks Stannis has just ordered to dig in for a siege" - Alyssa Rosenberg, washington post

"this season was as good as any in the show’s historic run, and the finale capped that off on an extraordinary high note." - brian lowry, variety

i love the juxtaposition of this board and these reviews.

LOL

I gave it a ten and I am proud of it ;)

I might have given the episode a nine because there was one or two cliffhangers too much for my taste but I am quite sure that the showmakers agreed with Martin to let him write his story without having it spoiled.

Actually the series might have been even better in itself if the show had cared less about giving Martin the time he needs.

It's explained in the Inside the episode thing. She drops it so she can be tracked, like a bread crumb. I'm sure there will be a scene next season where Daario and Jorah come across it and know they're on the right track (as unlikely as that is lol).

Well, they might look for a big burned spot with scattered bones ..........

Thank you for recognizing that. JCRB knows full well that I didn't know, have reason to know, or actually believe s/he needed treatment and was just using an idiom that means "calm down". And I got a Warning point.

Wonder if the trolls who call D&D pedos and Pervs get warning points. They are actually serious.

I got a warning point for calling someone "boring" who suggested Martin himself were a pedo.

Maybe they give him the swag bag when he comes back to shoot his funeral pyre scene.

Jon is dead and it looks like Kit isn't coming back next season. But they still have to shoot the funeral pyre scene because otherwise nobody will believe he is dead.

I have been predicting a sudden change in Jon's appearance for a couple of weeks now. Unless people are lying Jon does not come back in which case why give a damn who his parents were or he comes back and a different actor plays the part.

A resurrection scene seems inevitable. But how do D&D do it? Quite possibly in a different way to GRRM because they are very magic averse.

D&D have budget for next season. Why would they not shoot the pyre scene already? They have the actor, they have the set. That is a tell there. I am certain there is a scene and there is a reason not to have shot it already, like leaking info.

Looking at the whole plot arc of the season, I think it points to a way of selling Jon's resurrection to skeptical viewers:

* No Lady Stoneheart because having more than one unStark is stretching credibility.

* Mel's Shireen BBQ reminds viewers of the power of fire.

* Make viewers really, really hate Mel.

The last is the odd bit. Mel is surely an essential part of Jon's rebirth. Why else show her return? [That looks like a pony to me BTW, not a horse and certainly not a battle horse which is what Stannis was asking about].

But Mel is also evil incarnate. If she resurrects Jon, he is going to become evil. Unless of course, she doesn't do it willingly.

Here is what I think happens:

* Deserters from Stannis report what the red witch did to Shireen.

* Alliser Thorne tells the men to put Mel on Jon's pyre

* Mel gets the crackle crackle treatment she deserves

* Jon is reborn, life for life.

Anyone have any other use for Mel plotwise at this point?

Breathtaking :bowdown:

One thing I don't see anyone mentioning is the huge gift D & D gave to book readers. I think it's very possible they left so many cliffhanger storyline the way they did, or at least part of the reason was to give Martin a chance to finish book 6 before season 6 comes out so that book readers can read first how most of it ended.

Agreed 100%.

I know it's the cool thing to shit on D&D, and I do it too sometimes, but they gave the book readers AND George huge breaks. All the major cliff hangers are still in place. They could've easily gone further and probably made a better episode, maybe tied things up a bit more, but they didnt.

Like someone said earlier, this episode felt like they're giving George one last shot to finish TWOW and reveal most of the major events and fates himself.

This

I think the showmakers were really careful here.

No, I am not so happy about all those cliffhangers since I somewhat dislike cliffhanger overuse but it is obvious that the last episode precisely took up and collected all those damn open questions.

And now Martin is free to answer them first and in his own way. Which makes me believe that the next book wil come out before the next season.

That way we can enjoy both: eat the cookie and have it

Dp

Is Stannis dead?

Maybe he could redeem himself at least a tiny little bit if he died sacrificing himself for another young girl, Sansa, after having murdered his own daughter.

Looked like it was a different poison, Bronn took a while to weaken and get dizzy, Myrcella was immediately bleeding and collapsing

What makes me nervous is that with Myrcella dead Trystane could now go to Mereen, try to marry Dany, be as unsuccessful as Quentin and get scorched.

 

I don't think Myrcella is really dead. Bronn formed quite the little relationship with Tyene. I was wondering why we got to see that whole scene in the jail play out with the poison and the antidote; how I believe it was shown so that we would understand that

1) the poison is not totally instant drop-dead, Tyene had time to talk with Bronn before finally tossing him the antidote, and Jaime will yell for help on that small boat; and

2) that additional Bronn/Tyene flirtation when they were on the way out of the jail was a reminder of their "friendship"; and

3) Bronn has experienced the symptoms himself and knows how to recognize this poison so he will know the instant he sees Myrcella. I would bet you dollars to doughnuts that Bronn is carrying one or more vials of the antidote to that poison on his person and Myrcella will be saved.

As for why, *if* Tyene gave him the antidote on purpose, she may have known about Ellaria's "plan", and decided she wanted to protect Ellaria from being killed by Doran.

Makes an excellent season end cliffhanger though.

You give me hope.

And why should they have casted a different actress for those few minutes!?

I found that on Watchersonthewall:

With the season ended, I don’t particularly feel the need to nitpick. I’ve said enough about the Dorne story not being that strong. At this point, I just want to appreciate the fact that that Game of Thrones is so well-made, engrossing and packed with an incredibly talented cast, from the stars down to the minor roles. In terms of quality, the show can only be compared to itself, and I love it. It’s always transporting, and full of passion. If it didn’t inspire passion in viewers, then we wouldn’t spend so much time debating it and occasionally complaining. There is nothing else like it on television, and I’m happy to have the show. The finale tonight was powerful and enjoyable, and I’m looking forward to next year already!

Some people know how to enjoy themselves in a non masochist way. Congratulations to them for having a good time!! :)

I agree that they need Jon next season

What heroes do we have?

Dany - Drogon will look out for mommy and want some horse BBQ

Tyrion - no idea what will happen. Varys?

Bran as our only eye in the North??

Jaime - unpredictable by now

Sansa - will have to look after herself first of all

Rickon and Osha??

Jon is needed for viewers to to root for and to actually move the plot, they cannot only count on Mereen and on more or less shady antagonists like

KL - a mess with nice Tommen in between

Tyrells - good or bad guys??

Dorne with or against Trystane???

Boltons

Greyjoys - Yara vs Euron?

Baelish

And some oldtown magic addded to the soup

Only Dany and Tyrion appear as strong characters to root for and who really move the plot. There must be one more.

Also, booksnobs this season:

1) There won't be any "Egg, I dreamed I was old." WRONG.

2) D&D are gonna show Sophie Turner naked because they are pedophiles (borderline libel). WRONG.

3) They won't say "For the Watch". WRONG.

And still we have ridiculous frothing at the mouth fanatics here claiming D&D's entire raison d'etre is to troll the fandom. WRONG.

Thank you

The voice of reason

Jon dead, Stannis dead, Myrcella dead, Sansa and Theon dead - you don't believe all of them are !?

What about the kiss of life to jon from Benjen?

Though in the end of this season two out of three young girls are definitely dead, Shireen and Myrcella, and they are those two I cared most for, that's sad. I actually hd high hopes for both of them since in the books Myrcella is a strategic mind who masters cyvasse easily and Shireen as we all know was just wonderful. Her fate was obvious for two seasons but I have been in denial.

Show Sansa has grown to me, thanks to the actress, so in the end I will have to be content with her surviving. But I am sad, really.

Yyou are right, Dolorous Gabe, but in the show he is not quite there. Yet they showed, during the boat trip, that Brienne is very present for Jaime.

But most of Cersei's deillusioning manipulations and and her getting more and more psychotic have not yet happened, Cersei may be mean, self centered and ruthless but so far she appears relatively sane given the situation she is in.

Does Jaime even realize how she (and Margaery) made use of Tommen? Does he know, does he care?

The trouble here is that they haven't established any reason for Jaime to fall out with Cersei. In the books Jaime comes to the realisation that Cersei never truly loved him the way he loved her and starts to see through her manipulation of him, but the show hasn't yet given him any reason to think that is the case. He hasn't watched her losing her mind, Tyrion never spoke his line and they never fully played up the way their relationship is significantly changed since he returned to KL less a hand.

So, I'm really not sure how it's going to play out and what the show has in store for them.

If he received a letter now and burned it, Jaime would look a bit of a dick to be honest.

Yes, I would see Jaime as a dick and a self righteous fair weather lover if he ditched Cersei after she had one unimportant affair that is long over. That could hardly make up for a lifetime of love. Apart from that: She would still be his sister, treacherous lover or not.

In the show Jaime and Cersei may have fought but there hasn't been given any serious reason for Jaime to fall out of love with her. If anything he feels guilty towards her because freeing Tyrion caused their father's death in a way.

On the contrary: Jaime will not fall out of love because Cersei cheated on him, he will be desillusioned because she turns into a monster. She might get a compelling story towards that while in the books she already is quite monstrous. She will do horrible things and that will turn Jaime, he will have to choose between what morality is in him and his love for his sister.

The affairs as reason have always been a little thin for me even in the books, too much male pride hurt by cheating woman, this somehow does not count as redemption for me. There should be more emphasis on Jaime fundamentally disagreeing with Cersei's moral and political approach.

wasn't the whole point of Mel trying to seduce Jon cause stannis' seed was weak?

It was also the reason she sought out Gendry in S3

Oh oh, how much king's blood is left?

How to get to Tommen....?

Stannis himself of course.

Balon would be great, only she tried to off him already. If this did not work then his king's blood might be worthless as well.

Balon's children - where are they? And if Daddy did not work already....

.......but Theon is quality material though only for burning, too bad for him.

Jon of course - shall I fuck him or burn him or in that order?!

Dany? Fucking her would not be promising

Tyrion??? Would she fuck him or burn ........

But how is a battle between two sides, where we care about neither side (anymore), good writing? Or even remotely interesting? If we don't care about the characters on either side, what investment do we have in the outcome?

But we care about those who might get crushed in between: Sansa, Theon, Brienne and Pod. And I still think that Selyse's desillusionment with Melisandre would make a good story.

It is absolutely in Martin's intention to tell us that both sides are wrong and that it is the collateral damage we should care about. See the lesson about the Dance of Dragons Shireen had taught to her father without success.

People tend to dislike Brienne's story in Feast and Tyrion's story in Dance anyway, so by that logic it's no worse than in the books. Personally I thought Tyrion's storyline has been dealt with brilliantly this season. His scenes with Varys, Jorah and then Dany were all excellent.

As much as I love th character of Tyrion I wished they had more explored the dark side of his arc, as victim and as abuser. But that may be me, I want my favorites in every nuance, I have no problem to continue rooting for them. While show only audience might be bothered by too much greyness. After all it was not Cersei who killed Robert's kids and Sandor did not assualt Sansa in the show.

I think we can all accept that the show has to operate under certain constraints, however that does not excuse the poor writing we've had this season. The show is not even internally consistent and that comes down to sloppiness. I didn't mind Sansa popping up at Winterfell but the execution of that plotline has been rather poor. Seems like the entire WF plotline is in service to Ramsay. Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, are any of their storylines better than their Feast and Dance storylines? Not in my opinion.

If anything the storyline is a service to all three actors, first of all Sophie Turner who is at her best here. Alfie Allen and Iwan Rheon are as great as they had been before already. No, it is more a feast for Turner as actress.

Is there another site where rational fans of the books and show can discuss same without devolving into a D&D hate fest and whinefest about show spoiling books that probably won't even be finished?

Seriously. I used to love this site, but it's tit-for-tat with some of the same repetitive characters calling D&D pervs, idiots, etc. etc. etc. It's gotten personal against them, too, and it's sick.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2015/06/07/game-of-thrones-season-5-episode-9-review-the-dance-of-dragons/

http://www.wired.com/2015/06/game-of-thrones-recap-s05e09/

http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/game-thrones-experts-dance-dragons-220516

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/recaps/game-of-thrones-recap-how-to-train-your-dragon-20150607

Charlie Jane Anders, io9

http://www.ew.com/recap/game-of-thrones-recap

Sarah Hughes, The Guardian

Neil Miller, Film School Rejects

Eric Dodds, Time

Elio Garcia, Westeros.org

Scott Meslow, The Week

David Crow, Den of Geek

I'm guessing from the "If I'm going to die, let it happen while there's still some of me left" from the 5x10 promo, that Brienne and Pod finally arrive at Winterfell to rescue Sansa, and Sansa refuses their aid in favour of some sort of suicide mission, maybe to kill Ramsay or Roose or both, thus Chekhov's corkscrew.

LOL

If Sansa refuses their help she should at least be so sensible to ask for a proper dagger instead of screwing the Boltons with a corkscrew.

Dinklage isn't "only" a fun actor, he can do everything.