protar

Why would Bronn side with the woman who poisoned him? Why are they putting in an Arys plot line after the Sandsnakes attempt to capture Myrcella? Tbh I think it more likely that he's taking the part of Darkstar though. They'll pay him off, he'll try to kill Myrcella and run off. But then in the books Obara is going after Bronn, which doesn't make sense in the show if it's the Sandsnakes who pay him to kill Myrcella. Ugh, why is Dorne such a mess?!

I think it actually is. Seeing boobs sped up his heart rate. I'm not a doctor so I'm not going to complain about that - could even be plausible for all I know. But the scene itself was so pointless and ridiculous.

Yes, but the only reason he was poisoned in the first place was for a nude scene. So...

I gave it a 7. It was much better than last week. Still a lot to dislike, but a fair bit to like as well. Kings Landing and Meereen were probably the better parts of the episode.

People (myself included) have explained in depth what exactly is wrong with the lead up to the scene. Saying "you have no idea how TV works" is not an argument. Nor is pretending that our complaints are something other than what we say. If we're so clueless about television and you aren't, actually explain and reason to us why don't you? Explain to me how LF's plan makes sense. Explain to me how they didn't have time to show Sansa in the Vale, even though that would still leave them with fewer storylines to handle than other seasons. Explain to me how it's okay for D+D to spend years planning exactly how the plot could be bent to include the scene.

I'll be honest - as an isolated scene I thought it was pretty great television. It was uncomfortable to watch but that's as it should be. To me it's the surrounding context which I find reprehensible.

I did not imagine anything. We know exactly what Sansa's scene was intended to be. I didn't find the cock merchant joke particularly funny, but if I did it is not in anyway hypocritical. It is a joke: Clearly written to be a joke as well, given the whole "it would be a dwarf sized cock"/"you'd be wrong!" exchange and we sheer absurdity of the line. So take your complaints to D+D. And it clearly won't actually happen to Tyrion. Sansa's scene was a rape scene, clearly written to be such. I can't even comprehend how one can consider the two scenes on equal level of distaste. So I think I'm done discussing it with you.

What happens in the books. They had plenty of time to introduce Jeyne in S3 when Theon was stuck in the Dreadfort with no plot. They had northern lords plotting, murder mystery, frey pies, Mance/Abel. And Theon's development. And then the Battle of Ice to cap off the season. There's plenty they could have done.

Well look. For me an ideal S5 would have had the following stories: Winterfell (8/9 episodes) Meereen (8/9 episodes) Dorne (8/9 episodes) Kings Landing (7 episodes) The Wall (7 episodes) Tyrion/Aegon (7 episodes) Braavos (5/6 episodes) The Vale (4 episodes) That's less storylines than there were in S3 (which had the most IIRC), so why is that not manageable?

They waste so much time on pointless stuff that that's no excuse.

It was not unfilmable. In fact they did film it in S4. They just rushed through it. Why not take a bit more time in S4 before Lysa's death, setting up someone to take the fall? Then have that guys trial and the lord's declarant in S5? You could sideline her for most of the season, just give her 4 or 5 episodes.

And endless gif of the sandsnakes fighting would be fitting.

How exactly is a penis joke on par with what happened to Sansa? And no, both did not happen in the books. Jeyne was raped, not Sansa. Characters are not interchangeable. I think the best example that's been bought up is: Imagine for a second that Tyrion was put in the plot of Maester Kerwin (who is raped by the Ironborn). Would anyone see that as anything but gratuitous? Even though Tyrion's plot requires far less changing than Sansa's did to put him in that position? If Jeyne had to be cut there was absolutely no need to have that scene in the show. But they went out of their way to keep it in, while far larger parts of the novels lie on the cutting room floor, sacrificing all logic to get there and destroying a character arc in the process. They planned this for years. That is the complaint people have.

One actually happened in the books (Albeit off screen) the other didn't. And even then there was a lot of complaints about the torture porn at the Dreadfort, at the very least because it was a waste of valuable screen time.

Oh I've seen that one as well. "A woman's first time isn't supposed to be pleasant."

Yesterday I literally had some one deny that Sansa was crying at all during the scene. The lengths some people will go to excuse the writing here...it's some of the worst cognitive dissonance I've ever seen.

Enjoying fantasy books does not mean you're not a genre snob. If you enjoy ASOIAF, but call it pulpy popcorn fun because it's a fantasy, that's genre snobbery. If ASOIAF was 50 years old and didn't have any magic, it's place as a literary classic would not be in dispute. I don't know how anyone can say that ASOIAF doesn't have anything to say, or that it doesn't critically examine its characters. Indeed you're forced to admit that it does have something to say - about the horrors of war (which is one of just many themes ASOIAF explores) - but oh it's hamfisted and boring so it doesn't count. Even supposing it is boring, if boringness was enough to prevent a work of fiction from being a classic, we wouldn't have many classics. There's a vast corpus of analytical essays on ASOIAF, but because they're written on forums and not in journals, the wider literary scene does not consider them of merit. That is the sad reality of the speculative fiction ghetto. ASOIAF is tightly plotted, with a deep and immersive world, a vast cast of complex and memorable characters, with a lot to say about war, honour, power and morality. What about that isn't a classic? And most importantly it is interesting. You can't have the cart without the horse: If your deep, philosophical message is not wrapped in with an interesting tale it's useless. I would rather have a slightly less philosophical story with an interesting plot, than some dry, dull tome which I have to take a university course to understand its message. The latter is a literary failure. ETA: And semantic debates about what qualifies a classic aside, I do not see how anyone could truly believe that the show reaches the same level of depth as the books. Saying that the show's fine because it's "pulpy fun fiction just like the books" implies that not only is ASOIAF pulp, but it's pulp on the same level as the show. Are you really saying that?

I'm not sure what your point is. I'm only pointing out that Game of Throne's viewership is dropping. It's reached its lowest point in two years. That's just a fact.

I don't know how anyone can say that the show's decline is due to the books, when they're only following the very broad strokes of the book's plot at this point.

The existence of fantasty elements does not mean that a series cannot have realism. It boggles my mind how many people can say that on a fan forum for a series of fantasy novels, and it makes me realise that the reason the show continues to get praise is because people literally think the books are boobs and dragons and nothing more. The key is internal consistency. When a series introduces fantasy elements it must still have logic and consistency. For example dragons work a certain way, we know a fair bit about their behaviour and biology. If that knowledge is contradicted, then there is a lack of internal consistency. Martin puts a lot of effort into building a consistent world, and to telling us about politics, military strategy etc. He takes a quasi-historical approach to the series, drawing upon the real middle ages to make his world more believable. The fantastic can only be believed if it is grounded in reality.

I didn't say it wasn't still being watched a lot. But it's simply a fact that it's ratings are the lowest it's been in a long time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_Thrones#Viewer_numbers For the first time in the show's history episodes are getting lower ratings than episodes of previous seasons. That doesn't mean it still isn't doing very well. But it is undeniably in decline at the moment.

"Classics of fantasy literature, but not of all literature." - okay say no more, I get it: You're a genre snob. Lots of people are, I think it's part of why GoT is not held up to the scrutiny of other shows. The show surpasses the extremely low expectations people have of fantasy, so they don't expect anything more and don't look any deeper. ASOIAF may do none of that for you, but the books have certainly inspired me, and changed my world. The books are incredibly deep, you could write a dissertation on each POV character. And ultimately the books are really good. For me that is the only true measure of a classic: Quality. If the story is no good, all the philosophical depth in the world is meaningless.

Well I just can't agree with that. The books are modern classics, some of the finest work the contemporary fantasy genre has to offer. Some of the finest the genre has to offer period. But of course, some people see nothing more than boobs and dragons. If you only want to enjoy the books in that shallow manner be my guest, but you're missing 90% of the story by doing so. But the show? The show is just that top 10% layer. I have no doubt that you can find plot holes in ASOIAF. But to this extent? No. For the most part ASOIAF is very tightly plotted with a lot of effort put into realism and believability. The show on the other hand has practically no internal consistency at this point, relying on pure bamboozlement to stop people from noticing.

Hatewatching is actually pretty fun. You watch the show, laugh/cry at how bad it is, and then come on here and tumblr and snark about it. Plus it provides some interesting avenues for analysing the books and throws their qualities into an even better light.

I'm not denying that a lot of people still like the show, I'm simply having trouble comprehending why. Well, that's not really true - I know that the general public laps this stuff up, it's the same reason why the Transformers movies can make billions of dollars. The show is undeniably riddled with plot holes and inconsistencies. The show apologists seldom actually come up with proper rebuttals to the complaints about the show, they just stick their fingers in their ears and shout argument ad populum at the top of their lungs. I would dearly love to see someone, anyone, analyse the Dornish plot line this season and come to the conclusion that it makes good television. Why is this show good? If you want to have a discussion you need to actually look at the show and tell me what is so great about it, not blather about how many people watch it. And to be honest, I think the drop in quality is beginning to show. I know my family are beginning to grow bored with the show, and many of the Unsullied seem to be nearing the end of their rope. After this episode the critics are finally starting to actually criticise the show and viewing figures have dropped below that of a previous season for the first time in the show's history.