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FuzzyJAM

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Everything posted by FuzzyJAM

  1. FuzzyJAM

    Saddest moment in series?

    The descriptions have been somewhat. . .hm. . .poetic, thus far, yes. But that doesn't mean the reader is supposed to actually think it was poetic. That assumes George despises his audience and thinks they should take descriptions at face value. Clearly that's not the case. And that romantic vision has already been countered at least in part with stuff like "And Rhaegar died." The Robb and Bran scene, where Robb is desperately doing his best, is definitely touching. Re-reading that just now made me sad. Rickon and Bran hearing about Ned's death is another moment that hit me. But I think on first reading, the most moving thing I remember was Maester Aemon's speech.
  2. FuzzyJAM

    References and Homages

    Reference are inherently homages and arguably vice versa. References and homages also often aren't just superficial - deliberately using an inspiration, when it's supposed to be signposted, is a form of homage. And even if not inspired, they can go beyond the surface and use a particular name or symbol or whatever for something you've seen in your own work that is somewhat similar - e.g. you've written a character and then afterwards you note a similar character in a different work you enjoy so you give him a similar name: not an inspiration, but not a superficial reference either. This can even be used as a form of foreshadowing. And there are other relationships too, but this paragraph isn't going to be exhaustive! I don't think they're quite as distinct as you seem to be making out, though you're totally right that they have somewhat different connotations. Yup, the real Cleon was around at the same time as Sophocles. Someone mentioned him earlier which is why I wanted to be careful in saying my possible reference was very tentative. I don't know how common Cleon was as a name in that period for Greece. Humans are exceptionally good at seeing patterns even when they aren't there. Another possibility. I haven't read it. I wonder if, after he's finished writing the series, someone can one go through everything posted here and ask George about it. That would be fun!
  3. FuzzyJAM

    References and Homages

    If there's a link between Heart of Darkness and Tyrion it's a mild stylistic similarity (i.e. dreaminess) during a portion of the boat ride. Plot similarities beyond a boat trip to seem questionable but maybe it's a deliberate resemblance, IDK. At any rate, I'm sure he's read the novella, so he might have echoed it subconsciously. I don't think anyone mentioned yet that King Cleon is a possible reference to King Creon, who's most famous from Sophocles' versions of the Oedipus legends. Creon is a (debatably) evil king whose most famous act is to leave a corpse rotting out on the battlefield. There are enough dissimilarities that it's not clear, or perhaps it's an indirect influence, but there you go.
  4. FuzzyJAM

    References and Homages

    Abel is pretty obviously a reference to Bael in-universe, but I think it's also an allusion to the Biblical Abel. Abel is most famous for being the first brother. He quarrels with his brother and is killed by him. Mance too quarrels with his brothers and is "killed" by them (actually Rattleshirt, but hey). And in the story of his death, burnt offerings to God are key. There's a question about whether "God's favour" (which Abel has, his brother does not) might come into play with the NW later on, or perhaps R'hllor glamouring him might fit in. At any rate, it's not at all one for one, but there seems to be enough mixed up similarities for it to be something of an allusion. But maybe just seeing patterns where there aren't any. Sad to say, this was the only potential allusion I remembered from my re-read that has yet to be mentioned in the thread.
  5. FuzzyJAM

    References and Homages

    Haven't finished reading the thread yet, but has anyone ever suggested a link between Sansa's love of lemon cakes and Proust? In one of the most famous passages of In Search of Lost Time, Proust uses a lemon cake to explore aspects of memory. This makes me think of Sansa, who loves lemon cakes, and has that wonderful false memory of the kiss that wasn't. And then there are Dany's famous lemon trees, which suggest false memories too. I could be way off, but the idea of lemon (cakes) being symbolism for (false) memory doesn't seem too crazy.
  6. FuzzyJAM

    References and Homages

    I do apologise if this has already been brought up (I read the first 15 pages or so and didn't see it, I'll read the rest later), but I think there are strong parallels between the Glencoe Massacre and the Red Wedding. To give some background, the Glencoe Massacre happened after the first Jacobite rebellion. To cut a long story very short, there were religious issues and the kingdom of Scotland (i.e. the north of Britain) considered seceding from the joint kingdoms of England (and Wales) and Ireland and proclaiming a separate king, as was the case in the past. This did not happen, but there were those who tried to do it in a rebellion. When this was crushed, those responsible were offered pardons should they swear loyalty by a certain date. The Glencoe chief was three days late in swearing loyalty, though no issue was made at the time because there was bad weather and whatnot. Anyway, a plot was made regardless to kill the MacDonalds of Glencoe regardless and was signed by the king himself. What happened was that soldiers stayed at Glencoe in traditional highland custom, and then after two weeks massacred those who kept them as guests. Parallels: -The massacre was in violation of guest rights in Scotland. Admittedly it was reversed - the guests killing the hosts - but the idea is there. Indeed, this idea of hospitality ran deep enough that there was a charge of "murder in trust" for such occasions, so deeply ingrained was the idea of guest rights. It was just as unthinkable to do what the Campbells did to the MacDonalds as it was for the Freys to kill their guests. This is still remembered in Scotland today as something utterly abhorrent and reprehensible. The North remembers. ;] -The massacre was related to the northern part of the realms wishing to become independent again. -The massacre was related to issues with swearing an oath to the king. -The massacre had Scots killing Scots at the behest of a king to the south. -There was even a marriage relation between the man in charge of the massacre and the chief of Glencoe.
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