King Theon

Lots of people in this thread not realising that Cersei is being a properly scheming in this episode, not being nice for the sake of it. It was obvious with Tywin, but apparently when it was being subtle - the Marg scene - some people are mistaking her acting nice to twist the judges' arms for 'whitewashing'. Any excuse to whine about the show for some people ;) Jojen, Lysa & Sansa were all so good in this episode. Slight shame that the Jon Arryn reveal wasn't left until Only Cat, but that scene is still destined to be epic.

I'm with you on the Hodor warging front. Keeping all of my fingers and toes crossed for that. Then for Karl to tell Jon they killed Bran and Co. (because he's a mega-douche) so that Jon goes back to thinking he has no family and thus the Stannis offer situation goes back to normal.

Getting angry over a TV show is a waste of time, really. Look at how angry people got over Jaime-Cersei, it wouldn't erase the scene and the controversy only actually served to bump the viewership for the following episode! I much prefer the books but I'm sympathetic to changes and overlapping as it's simply the nature of the books being unfinished and them being literally impossible to adapt exactly without being stupidly expensive and stupidly confusing. There were definitely things I didn't like in the episode (Ghost caged, Marge sneaking into Tommen's room unexplained, Locke happening to waltz in as Sam bumbles out a contrived plot point that's coincidentally right), but I thought the vast majority was pretty brilliant.

Ha, answered it for me, thanks.

I always thought it was 'sword', guessing it's not confirmed what it is she says? It's been a while since I read Feast/Dances.

Hi QueenSansa2! I'm a long-time lurker, only started properly rambling today, but I'll have a waffle at your points. Re 1) I think you're reading into it a little into it. The pause, imo, was just dramatic/emotional tension. It would've been rubbish if they'd rushed the scene. I also disagree a little (a lot less convincingly, because this is just my theory!) about the Jaime-Brienne fate, as I think it'll be Jaime that kills Brienne in trial by combat, well, her telling him beforehand what she knows about Gendry etc, then letting him win. Re 2) Again, I have to respectively disagree. I think the Tommen-Marge scene was brilliant. They only aged the actor up one year (he's still 16) in the show, but every kid is aged up a bit in the show. I don't *think* they'll ever have sex either in the show, just Marge c*ck-teasing. She defo has still been screwing around still, I think, with Loras is what I think the show will go with to avoid casting randomers. She didn't buy him Ser Pounce in the show as it would immediately giveaway this secret friendship they're building behind Cersei's back, which *should* result in an epic showdown between Marge and Cersei when she finds out! They have to do Cersei's storyline a little differently as a lot of her rage is just in her head in the books. Just my opinion, anyway. Re 3) Another point, another respectful disagreement! My money's on her just sweet-talking the Kingsguard chap, she's the hottest woman in King's Landing after all. Then again, I think this is a plot hole for the show not to point out how she did it, especially following the Jaime-Cersei scene, so god knows. I also don't think Varys is starting a war as they've been in a permanent state of war since the end of book one, I'm in the 'he's a Blackfyre' camp so I think him killing Kevan is just to help put Cersei back in control to screw everything up and make it easier for Aegon to conquer. Re 5) Foreshadowing or red herring? People get their knickers in far too much of a twist about this sort of stuff, I think it was a fun throwaway line that hints at a potential future but not necessarily definite foreshadowing. I'll hold my hands up and say I don't an effing clue though! I figured I'd end my ramble by defending the show, which you seem peeved at. I say don't blame the show, blame GRRM. He knows how slow his writing of the series has become, it's his fault if the show overtakes the books. I realise it sucks that we're going to find out the ending in the show before the books (not everyone seems to have come to terms with this yet), so I don't think it's fair now the show's starting to overlap. Unless GRRM pulls the most shocking, brilliant bunny out of a hat and realises two massive books in the next two years, it's going to happen.

Some viewers will think the latter, but the show can't help that. There's always going to be some viewers who care more about nudity than plot, and it's more of a loss to them. I'm sure it'll try its hardest to show how humiliating and degrading the experience is for Cersei (if it doesn't, then that's a whole other kettle of fish). But this Craster's scene is *nothing* in tone like Cersei's walk of shame. It serves to show how evil the mutineers are without the degradation of a main character who the viewers have grown to care about. The degradation on show is definitely impactful though, it's just that the point of the scene isn't the same. This feels like a circular debate at this point, to be honest. Some people aren't going to feel like the rape scenes work, some people are. I just think that it's upped the hatred of the mutineers and created an excellent sense of dread in the final 15 minutes. To each their own.

Think about people's strong reactions to sexual violence though. As a society, not many people are more hated than rapists and people guilty of sexual assault. Showing it - and showing how horrible it is - is a valid way of making the viewer loathe the mutineers. I think saying that they portray sexual violence all the time is a reason not to do it as an argument against this scene is not fair - we're surely discussing an isolated scene in an isolated storyline here. When in Jon or Bran's storylines have we seen rape yet (implied with Craster's in the past, I think, I might be wrong though)? Yes, they killed Mormont, but this is another level of evil (at least in most readers' eyes). So I think it adds to the foreboding and horror for when Bran's captured and the assumed elation when Jon arrives to give them what they deserve.

I'm firmly in the camp of thinking that there was nothing wrong with having rape scenes at Craster's Keep. Well, obviously it's horrifically wrong, but from the perspective of the TV show I think it was necessary. The implication of rape has nowhere near the same effect (in my opinion, at least) as gruesomely showing the horror of it when in the following scene involves characters you love being captured by the bad guys. They made it tasteless, they made it terrifying and they made us hate the characters. That's exactly what that scene needed, I thought. So what if we're not given a backstory about why these people are evil? When a minor character goes around doing selfless things, do we demand an explanation on why they haven't descended into anarchy? Karl Tanner will almost certainly be dead soon, what's the point in fleshing out why he's horrendous? The best example of why I thought it worked was Meera's reaction to realising that the Night's Watch people at Craster's are rapists. She's the one who cowered in fear upon realising what these people are capable of, while Bran - who is seemingly too young to understand what evil men can do in the world of Westeros - is oblivious. I immediately empathised with Meera's fears, knowing how awful the people inside that shelter were having seen moments ago, and wanted them to get away. When they get caught seconds later, it makes the feeling of dread intensify too.