Hiram McDrogon

How so? Book: decides he's the rightful king, kills Renly with some regrets, fails to take King's Landing, licks his wounds on Dragonstone, decides to fight for the realm (and PR benefit) of defending the Wall, successfully defends the Wall, heads south to fight the Boltons and faces adversity. All the while thinking about but never quite making a blood sacrifice to the Lord of Light, and never really showing much emotional attachment to his daughter. Show: decides he's the rightful king, kills Renly with some regrets, fails to take King's Landing, licks his wounds on Dragonstone, decides to fight for the realm (and PR benefit) of defending the Wall, successfully defends the Wall, heads south to face the Boltons and faces adversity. All the while thinking about but never quite making a blood sacrifice to the Lord of Light, and at one point showing a deep emotional attachment to his daughter. Then he makes a blood sacrifice to the Lord of Light, and that sacrifice destroys any chance he had of victory. His ambition undoes him. I'm not too sure how the show butchers or simplifies the arc. Simplifies the character, maybe, but the arc? What Stannis actually does in the books so far is pretty close to what we've seen in the show - when and if we ever get more material for the arc, OK, we may say the show simplifies it, but for now I don't see how that can be said.

Wow dude, Arya's scene alone probably takes you up to 11/10. With For the Watch factored in, you're looking homicidal.

Pshaw. Obviously not a Doctor Who fan! We all know Littlefinger has a TARDIS, and when he gets there, he'll turn it sideways, and Sansa and Theon will fall in, with the swimming pool set up to catch their fall, just like for River Song when she jumped off a New York skyscraper. (Goddamn, I like the show. I shouldn't be writing stuff like this.)

Remember that when Thoros first resurrected Beric, he had no intention of doing so - they were just words he said when someone died, and he was as surprised as anyone when Beric got up (at least that's in the show - I can't remember what happened in the book). Who knows - coming to her god with humility may be what actually gives Mel the power she claimed, and perhaps thought she had, all along.

Actually the TV forum here is a much more positive and enthusiastic place during the off-season. It's full of people who enjoy the show. Or at least I hope it will be again - many of the more prolific posters at that time of year have disappeared during the on-season, perhaps overwhelmed by the negativity. It does amuse me that the two most popular votes are 10/10 or 1/10 (the former seems rosy-eyed uncritical enthusiasm, and the latter absurd), but I guess this is the internet, and reasonable dislike or enjoyment just isn't done.

Voting 8, I guess, although I'm having trouble disentangling ratings for the episode (pretty good, probably 8/10) from the season as a while (meh, 6 or 7 out of 10, oddly lower than my average for all the episodes). I liked Arya and Trant, even though it didn't really make sense to me, based on what we'd seen of the brothel last week, that they'd let people come in and just beat little girls. But other than that it was well done (and, um, bonus, kind of, for not doing any creepy sexual thing. Beyond random beating, that is). I think Stannis's story ended (?) marvellously well, even if it seemed a bit too cribbed from Macbeth at the end. I have no idea where it's going in the books, but that doesn't matter - in the show, I love this season's progress from triumphal hero at the Wall to a broken man who's destroyed everything he cared about. Plus I'm very curious what's going to happen with Melisandre now - her face when she returned to Castle Black was fantastic, the first sign we've seen of any character development for her. (I guess Stannis is dead now, even if a weapon being raised prior to certain death, followed by a cut, has led to real deaths approximately ... zero times in this series?) King's Landing and in particular Lena Headey were excellent, although I wish we'd heard something about what's happening to the Tyrells. Yes, the walk went on too long - good. I'm glad it seemed awful. That was the point. I also liked how Qyburn rushing up with a blanket instantly turned our dear little mad scientist into the most kindhearted man in King's Landing. Meereen was good, with Daario showing more character this episode than perhaps he ever has before. They found a more sensible reason for Tyrion to be ruling than I thought was possible, so that's good. (Still odd, but not as absurd as I'd feared.) I'm curious why Dany's interaction with Drogon this week looked so much better than it did last week. I guess I'm happy to see Varys back, but ... WTF?! I think Dorne, Winterfell, and Castle Black were all solid enough in isolation, but not that good when viewed for the season as a whole. Dorne: well, Jaime had a great scene there, and Myrcella was good too. I'm very surprised that she's (presumably) dead - with Cersei's prophecy, I was sure that she'd be queen after Tommen's death. But they got Alexander Siddig for that?! At the moment Ellaria's plan seems bizarre, but, well, if I'm going to give GRRM the benefit of a doubt on much of ADWD and AFFC until the next book comes out and hopefully ties it all together, I can do that for the show too. Winterfell: assuming Sansa is in this situation, all well and good, and nice to see Myranda dead, and Theon returning. But why oh why has there been no hint this season that she was even trying to play the Boltons?! Try and fail, OK, but ... did she try? And I've only watched it once, but from the way it was filmed, that leap off the wall looked like a suicide jump - if they wanted it to seem like a big gamble, where maybe the snow would break their fall, that didn't seem to come across. Castle Black: again, in isolation, the scene with Sam was good, and the murder was good. But it just doesn't make sense to me that, after they'd heard what happened at Hardhome, the murder would happen now. And as is typical for this season, there are just too many inconsistencies or implausibilities: as I said earlier, the brothel letting Trant beat girls; Sansa's candle briefly turning into some kind of arc light; Stannis somehow making it back to the forest before being found by Brienne; Dany going on what seemed a pretty epic hike for a bite to eat; Varys somehow having a spy network in Meereen ... none of these are huge, but at some point around the middle of this season the show punctured my suspension of disbelief, and I'm not sure if it's going to come back.

But that's all book knowledge, isn't it? I'm not sure if that information has ever been provided in the show. In the show, seeing as how Stannis's army came along the north side of the Wall, it's barely arguable that travelling along the north side made more sense. But to me it's another example of the show's occasional carelessness over relatively easy things to get right - if Jon and co had simply left Castle Black along the north side of the wall in the first place, I wouldn't have registered the return on the north as weird. But the fact that they left from the south side, and then came back along the north side, made it jarring.

7/10. I liked the Stannis scene. Maybe I've spent too much of my life reading ancient myths, but a ruler sacrificing their own child is a pretty classic trope and I like it when the story has old echoes like that. Yes, it was appropriately horrific, but I think it was probably the best done scene of the episode. The twenty men simultaneously lighting fires all across the camp was rather absurd. This may be the first episode ever when I haven't liked Arya's scenes. Come on kid - you're in training to be a secret assassin! Make at least some effort to not direct cold stares at your target as you slyly trail them, invisible as you can be, following them through near-empty giant squares with a seafood cart by the safe distance of what seemed to be five meters. Meereen solid. Not great, but solid. The gladiator combat was just OK; the Harpy insurrection was creepy and mostly well done, except that I'm confused about how they seemed to be randomly killing anyone and everyone. The show continues the long tradition of no one ever launching a killing blow when one would sensibly be launched, but, well, that's what TV and movies do. Good to see Daario, Jorah, and Tyrion working together. The combat with Drogon was fairly well done; the ride itself was, well, eh, ok, not that good, but I assume that making it look good would be very, very hard and expensive work. In my head I justified Jon being north of wall by remembering that Stannis's troops were north of the wall too. But a five-second shot of Jon and Edd heading out through the Wall a few episodes back sure would have made it less jarring. I have no idea what the Sand Snack paddy-whack scene was for. I keep hoping Dorne has a purpose. Will this just all end with Myrcella, Jaime, and Trystane coming to King's Landing, as Tommen apparently commanded? That seems something of a waste. As Season 5 winds to its close, I'm feeling much the same way about the show as I did after reading Books 4 and 5: I'll keep going because there have been some fantastic moments along the way and a lot of goodwill has been accumulated, but another season/book at about the same level, and they'll probably lose me.

Yeah, I watch it on my iMac, and when I first watched it in daylight, I was getting pretty annoyed that my own reflection was dominating lots of the scenes. It was somewhat better on a nighttime rewatch. The darkness is definitely a bit much on a computer - is there the same issue on a TV?

Yeah, that was a bit weird - too hooded, too motionless. I was expecting it to turn out to be a zombie for a last minute threat to the heroes, but I guess it was just a rower.

I'm not the one you're originally responding to here, but in Watchers on the Wall we cared about characters on both sides. That can make a big difference for how you view a battle. Personally I think the two episodes are about on a par in overall quality - yes, I'd say Hardhome looked cooler, but Blackwater and Watchers on the Wall had deeper character dynamics enriching them. If this makes any sense, I'd say Watchers and Blackwater were "human" battles done very well, whereas Hardhome was a morally black-and-white fantasy battle done very well (and, for TV, amazingly well).

My goodness I seem to rate on a different pattern than other people, maybe because I'm rating on an "all TV shows" scale rather than "normal Game of Thrones" scale. I give it a 9, maybe 9.49 (to avoid rounding up to 10; I believe I've given everything also this season 7, 8, or 9/10). The battle looked great. The Arya stuff was very good. Cersei was very good, and the scene with Qyburn was fantastic. The Thenn + Jon duel with a White Walker was fantastic, and I loved the economic character-building and deaths done with both the Thenn and the Val-figure at Hardhome. I think Sansa's been great for this episode and the previous one. Wun Wun was one of the coolest things ever seen on TV. But 10 is perfect, and it just wasn't. Tyrion and Dany were in my opinion OK, not great - while I hoped that Tyrion would bring up the Meereen material, I now fear the Meereen material may instead bring Tyrion down. For story weirdness and inconsistency, this episode was a step up on the past few, but where was the fire? Sure the Wildlings are on the run from the wights and Walkers, but they at least know how to use fire to fight the wights - that was long since established as the only real effective way to deal with them. The battle layout seemed too inconsistent, although maybe it'll look better on a rewatch - there are swarms of undead, and they're overrun, and then suddenly it's Tormund and Edd and Wun Wun and Jon with no zombies around. Sometimes the wights keep fighting when they've lost massive chunks of their body, other times an arrow through the skull seems to do them in. The zombies in this episode seemed to go down like orcs, and that doesn't match earlier in the story. There's a massive crowd of people pushed against the outside of the gate, and then suddenly they all presumably, um, back up into the fog to die in screamingly painful but unseen ways? Jon and Tormund seemed to be holding the rear, but suddenly there were lots of people left behind them. With the panicked flight from the beach, how could there have been a boat left for our heroes at the end? Yeah, I know these are all nitpicks, but there are enough of them that I can't justify a 10. Don't get me wrong - I'm giving at a 9, and I thought it was a fantastic hour of television! - but it wasn't perfect.

It's great to see him playing off a different actor. I'm fine with Emilia Clarke's acting, but for four seasons we mostly saw Glen just interact with her - it's wonderful he's been given a chance to work with someone else. (And I'm also looking forward to Dinklage pulling the Meereen material up a bit.)

When watching, I had a brief moment of thinking "Oh, clever! The poison only takes effect when someone's aroused! So that's why she's suddenly acting all seductive out of nowhere and for absolutely no reason!" But then, no, that's not where they were going - unfortunately. I think my own version of the story would have made a lot more sense than Bronn's poisoning suddenly coming on like that. That may be one of those scenes where I'll add a little head-canon addition so it all holds together better. A poison that takes effect when someone's turned on must have been done at some point, but I can't recall any examples. The only thing remotely similar I can think of is that Stratham (sp?) film where he dies if his pulse drops below a certain rate.

No. That's not necessary. The joking and detail about mechanics of rape really should stop.

8/10. In my opinion, on the same level as the first four or so, not as good as #5, and better than #6. Great to see Tyrion meet Dany. No idea where it'll go from here, but I'm happy. Given the circumstances they've put her in, I think Sansa was handled well this episode. Nice to see her playing the cards she's dealt, something that was woefully lacking the previous few episodes. This episode, she's a tough and smart woman in a terrible situation, so fine. I'll just try to forget how on earth she wound up in this terrible situation. The fact that visibility was about 10 meters when Theon was trudging to the tower highlighted the, um, oddness of the "light a candle in the window" plan. I enjoyed pretty much everything in King's Landing, especially the final scene with the High Septon and Cersei. I also enjoyed his scene with Olenna, although really that character should have been smart enough to recognize that some people out there are genuine (fanatical, but genuine). I loved Tommen's callback to Joffrey's behaviour. Similar words, but sorry kid, you're just not as murderous as your brother. Tyrion introducing himself to Dany made me very, very, very, very, very, very, very happy. But man, the plot holes: did I miss the reason Cersei ordered Littlefinger to immediately come back to King's Landing? Olenna asking him that just made the problem worse. And did I miss what on earth Ramsey was doing having his lunch up there? With, um, candles in the window that would presumably trigger whatever Brienne's action is going to be. And nameless guy suddenly deciding to let Tyrion go. Again, was there a reason for that?! "Duh, this slave is trying to set himself free. My job is control slaves. OK, I'll let him go!" I initially guessed that by some extreme coincidence the guard was going to be the guy from the Aerie's sky cells back in Season 1, but that head-canon was punctured within a second or two. And what on earth is going on with the fighting pits - surely Dany would require them to have a "beg for mercy" rule. Did I mention that Tyrion meeting Dany made me happy? EDIT: I guess I missed a step in the Winterfell scene - I'd assumed that Ramsey was in the broken tower with the window, waiting for Theon to fall into the trap. But I guess that was a misdirect and Theon didn't actually go to that tower. Oops.

7/10. I gave 8/10 to the first four episodes, and 9/10 last week. The Joran and Tyrion parts were good; I also liked most of King's Landing, although I was expecting a hint that Cersei's scorpion is about to lash out at her. I'm glad that the early birthmark scene turned out to have some value. I like how Littlefinger's plans make a bit more sense now. Braavos was fairly good, but man, the strains around the initial five-year-gap plan and later abandonment of it sure show a lot more in the TV show than in the books. The Dorne parts aren't working, although I don't feel they worked particularly well in the books either. Both factions seeking Myrcella arrive at exactly the same time?! The fight scene choreography didn't impress me at all. And all these armed warriors get directly into the kingdom's inner sanctum without facing any opposition?! I am very confused about what's happening in Winterfell. Sansa's decision for revenge, sure. Her decision to go along with some kind of plan that involves marrying into and tricking the Boltons into ... something, I'm fine with that. But the forwards and backwards, the one week actively pursuing a goal, the next week unwilling victim of her fate, that I don't get at all. The scene with Myranda was OK - hey, Sansa DOES have some intelligence and clout! But the rest of the episode, it was like she had no control over her fate at all. If there's a scene near the end of the season where Sansa reveals the plan she's had all along, this will have been somewhat redeemed, but for now ... it just doesn't make sense. If she's playing them, why isn't she using her courtesy armour and being all sweet and docile, with an occasional sly smile for the benefit of the audience? But if she's not playing them, what on earth is she even doing there?!

No divided poll here, no, but I think most of the people posting here have also read the books, including most of those people who are giving scores of 8, 9, and 10 (myself included). If you're suggesting that only people who haven't read the books could possibly enjoy the show, then I don't think you're correct. If you're looking for a divide amongst voters, I suspect it's a divide between those who simply hate the show, and those who think the show is generally pretty good. Whether they've read the books or not has little to do with that divide. Look at the sub-forum for E05: the Spoilers discussion went 44 pages before being locked; the No Spoilers has exactly one reply, and that consists in its entirety of "Wrong place." The unsullied certainly aren't a noisy presence in this forum, although I'm sure there are some around. I don't think it's at all obvious that anyone who hasn't read the books would be in awe of the show. Tastes differ. I've got friends who love the books and love the show, others who don't particularly like the books and like the show, others who haven't read the books and love the show, and others who haven't read the books and don't like the show at all. (I don't personally know anyone "in real life" who loves the books and dislikes the show, although of course there are plenty of those people out there!)

I wondered if they were going to go that way. I didn't think Sansa herself would be hurt, but I was half-expecting her to run to Theon's cage and to take shelter there before realizing who she was with - that would have been an interesting way to throw them back together, but the way both actors handled it, with almost nothing said, worked very very well. But I'm still guessing that bad treatment of Myranda will be what seriously spooks Sansa - and Myranda trying to kill Sansa with the hounds (rather well set up with her parentage being emphasized this episode!) could certainly have been one way to lead to that bad treatment.

8.5/10, rounded up to 9 - I've given everything else 8 so far this season. Man I enjoy this show when I have no idea what's coming next, which, perhaps oddly, made the Valyria/greyscale sequence the weakest part of the episode for me, because I was pretty sure how it would all proceed, except for the (wildly improbable and mostly omitted!) way they escaped. I loved the very cool joint reading of epic poetry. Almost everything at Winterfell and the Wall was fantastic. So many good character beats throughout that. Highlights were Sansa's and Reek's first meeting, Stannis talking to Sam, Jon talking to Tormund, Davos talking to Shireen ... even Jon talking to Olly was fairly good. Olly didn't quite deliver well, but Kit's been fantastic this season. I was happy that Brienne's reading of her CV finally had a (presumably?) good result! For a moment I thought Myranda was going to try to kill Sansa, and then Myranda's punishment/torture/death would be the horrible scene we've heard alluded to, but I guess that's not what's happening yet (but I still find it likely Myranda's close to the middle of whatever that scene turns out to be). The Oldtown mentions had me wondering if they're in fact going to make the show bigger again. I thought they were done with that, but between Sam's need to read, and implied need to have more books, there's sure a strong suggestion that he's off Oldtown way. Meereen was solid but not great. The steps leading up to the marriage were poorly laid out; I wish Daario had somehow fingered the one barbecued noble with a line like "We KNOW this guy's involved - the others, we're not so sure". And I'm glad they're trying to make me care about some of the other characters in Meereen - this was a problem for me in the book - but the Missandei/Grey Worm stuff isn't really doing it for me.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels that way - I'm somewhat bemused by the wild swings in votes from episode to episode. I've thought all four were quite good, no amazing episodes yet, no duds either. Solidly enjoyable all the way through. (Maybe it's because we "cheated" on the watching? The binge-watch does make it a little difficult to distinguish one episode from another.)

8/10. I quite liked it, but didn't think it was great. I'm happy with the plot movement in Meereen, and Barristan's apparent death, although I wasn't too impressed with the fight scene as a whole - it relied on the all-too-common trope of legendary badass warriors (Unsullied) suddenly become easily killed redshirts when the plot demands. I really liked the King's Landings stuff, even if the Sparrows seemed surprisingly well-prepared for their transformation into the Faith Militant. I'm fine with D&D using Loras's sexuality as Cersei's tool to fight the Tyrells, but I wish the Faith's attitude toward homosexuality had been made clearer earlier on in the series. The Wall was good - I was a bit, just a bit, skeptical of Melisandre's attempted seduction of Jon, but her delivery of "You know nothing" completely redeemed the scene (and indeed redeemed approximately 70% of the times I got annoyed by Ygritte saying it!). I think the show is doing a great job with Stannis, although I never quite understood the hate for how D&D were handling Stannis earlier on. He was hard to like earlier on, and now he's becoming much more likeable at the Wall - doesn't that match the books? Jamie and Bronn in Dorne, so far so good. Ellaria still OK, even if I miss the book version. Sand Snakes ... well, I'll reserve judgement. So far the Sansa in Winterfell stuff is proceeding much more coherently than I'd have guessed a month ago. Part of me thinks that master-plotter Littlefinger would have a tighter plan, but then I start to think about just what he's doing in the books and, well, what the heck. I still have no clear idea of just how much Littlefinger or Sansa knows about what they've gotten themselves into, and I have a suspicion that the "Does Littlefinger know who Ramsey is?" question will remain just as unanswered as "Does Littlefinger know who Arya is?" at Harrenhal. The backstory is great, and the show seems to have got better at delivering exposition. We heard two lengthy stories about Rhaegar, and Tyrion reminded everyone of Jorah's story, yet with all that exposition there was nary an exposed breast to be seen! At the moment I'm guessing that the season will end with a cliffhanger with both Winterfell's and Jon's fates left unknown - and Season 5 will have Stannis entering the suddenly open doors of Winterfell, to find Sansa smiling coldly and at least one dead Bolton. (At least one Bolton needs to remain alive as an adversary in the North, until the Wall comes tumbling down, anyway.)

I wouldn't say so - no more than Grenn's death confirms his imminent demise in the books. As much as I like Barristan, his role - and any important future he may have in the books - can be fairly easily replaced by other advisor characters.

I suspect that'll be Tyrion - or, the city's doomed anyway, and D&D just speed it up a bit.

The above is true in my case anyway, not that I have a high post count. I enjoy listening to a number of the different podcasts - they're often intelligently critical of things. This episode: gave it an 8. Thoroughly enjoyed it, even if I'm still not entirely sure what if any test Arya passed to suddenly be allowed entry when she wasn't before. I miss the Ellaria of the books - it's nice to have SOMEONE who thinks vengeance forever and ever may be a bad idea - but they're doing the streamlining for a good reason, and I respect that. Great introduction for Doran. I thought the Night's Watch election was streamlined quite well, and they're continuing to make Ser Alliser an excellent "sympathetic" (but still dickish) adversary. I'm glad Show-Sam isn't constantly going on about how he's craven. (And remember that, in the book, Jon is elected commander at about the same age as that kid Olly is.) I love how some scenes are open to widely different interpretations: just what is going in Sansa's head? Is she out-and-out rejecting Brienne, or trying her best to subtly warn her to get the heck out of there before Littlefinger's goons kill her? I enjoy the dragons showing Dany's options: chained up and angry in a city that no longer wants her, or setting off free with a dragon that, oh yeah, eats children. And the Gilly/Sam/Shireen scene was great.