Ser Gareth

Let's be completely honest. Most people don't care. People on forums like this do because we are a lot more passionate about the books/show than 99.9% of the viewers. Ironically I think a lot of this passion has come about because of the long waits between books. It's the speculating of what means what that has kept us going back to the books over and over again. And by going back over and over again we have minor characters memorised. We know who the GreatJon is for example. The average book reader wouldn't. If you had only ever read the books through once and then he appeared again a lot of readers, unless obviously prompted, wouldn't even remember who he was or who the Umbers are. So in the TV show, minor character motives are generally irrelevant and not every action has to be justified with some kind of logic. The viewers aren't children (and even then I'd question if every motive had to be clearly defined) and I think one of the reasons GRRM has got himself into such a pickle with the books is because he seems determined to justify so many viewpoints and actions that really don't need to be justified to make the story enjoyable.

Regarding the Umbers. This is the show, the books are the books. I think a lot of people who have read the books automatically think the motivations for their TV counterparts should be the same as the books. But this has never been a 100% faithful adaptation and some things simply aren't that important. To appease book readers maybe they should have had a Karstark hand him over but what's in a name really? The dialogue has definitely changed since they can longer paraphrase or adopt lines from the book. I quite enjoy some of it even though it's obvious such conversations would never take place in the books. E.g. the Usual Suspects style of interaction between the "Go Get a Wight Adventure Party" was excellent dialogue but was out of place in AGOT? Most of it was IMO. That said it was also very akin to the type of conversation that Bronn & Hound had in the Blackwater episode and that dialogue was written by GRRM himself. I think it's become "cool" to be overly critical of the show and the media usually follow (or try to) what is cool. Flipping it on its head I thought the praise the show got in the early seasons was completely over the top too. Probably again because it was cool to like the show. As for plot holes and logic fails, almost every story has them but especially stories set in fantastical worlds. A lot of things happen conveniently in both the books and in the show. But it's that convenience that moves (or should move!) the plot on.

My apologies, that was small of me.

Clearly we'll never agree on this. As far as I am concerned if sells an incomplete product they have a moral obligation to ensure that the product is at some point completed. And I have read them combined (The Ball of Beasts) and they're still terrible. If you seriously believe that AFFC/ADWD are great pieces of literature and you teach literature?! Jeez....

Was that global viewing figures and was Lost on cable only? (I am from the UK so wouldn't know). Lost was huge though. I never actually watched it but it seemed EVERYONE was talking about it. The funny thing is I read an article about it in the Radio Terms and thought instantly they were clearly in some kind of purgatory. I heard that wasn't the case though and the show also lost it's way (no pun intended).

Sadly will never find out what was going to be in the books. As for GRRM makes very mistakes with plot development? The reason the story has got away from him is because of some major flaws in the plot developments. In fact the reason why we'll never see the complete series in book form is because of his poor plot planning and character arcs. Martin also has years to write, scrap, re-write, scrap, tell everyone that he is only working on TWOW and nothing else, edit wildcards, open a cinema, write some more TWOW, scrap, re-write, scrap, do a talkshow, decide to write and release yet another world building book most people don't give a toss about, do a bit more wild card editing, write some more TWOW, scrap etc. etc. The show HAS to be done yearly. The time constraint is much more aggressive. If only the show runners had had the complete source material to work from......

As I point out elsewhere, non-book readers I have spoken to (who love the show) point to seasons 1 to 4 as being too slow and most of them prefer the later seasons. I personally don't agree with them but the sheer arrogance so many book fans have at dismissing the opinions of the Unsullied (which in itself is such an arrogant pathetic thing to call someone) is pathetic.

The Wire is probably the greatest TV show of all time (discarding the final season!) and of course it's better than AGOT. It's not fantasy for a start so everything is so much more believable and relatable. AGOT is pretty much own it's own in terms of pure fantasy that has endured so really it's more comparable to Star Treks or Spartacus. As for the plot, I keep telling people that we don't know what they've come up with themselves and what they've done based on an outline from GRRM. For what it's worth I think Littlefinger will meet his end in Winterfell at Sansa's command and I do believe it will be by Arya's hand. The reason for this is because I believe it was Littlefinger that truly engineered Ned's beheading by telling Joffrey he should do it. So it will be poetic that he meets his end at the Stark home. I also think the whole mission beyond the Wall to obtain a Wight to prove to both Queens that the threat is real will happen in the books, although it won't be the same cast of characters that does the ranging. I agree that that particular plot is ridiculous. In fact I've been saying that ever since AGOT (the novel). The pacing involving the Others and the sheer ambivalence shown by everyone to the threat is by far the greatest weakness in the entire story. As for popularity, ordinarily I'd 100% agree with your statement bar one thing. Demographics. AGOT has transcended demographics in a massive way. Transformers and Taylor Swift appeal to one or two demographics who go out and buy on en mass. AGOT is a different animal all together. In fact, soaps aside, the last TV show I can recall having such a wide array of impact was the original V back in the 1980's.

Nitpicking isn't insightful. The flaws in the show are obvious and most people (show snobs!) that can be arsed to try and defend the show will freely admit that. But most people don't try and defend the show because they can't be bothered to argue over something they're actually enjoying (those with an axe to grind will always have more to say and more motivation to say it) and on this forum at least they get beaten down but the very vocal minority. And they are a minority as clearly demonstrated by the actual ratings in the ratings thread as opposed to the posts (the vast majority of which are negative about the show). I have several gripes about the show. But I also understand that the show will never be as rich in content as the books and the visual medium will always struggle with subtlety over a book (e.g. you really have to make things obvious to the viewer). But my ultimate point remains the same. AGOT is massively popular and well received so it's not a failure. And my secondary point is that the show is far from perfect but nowhere near as bad as the majority of regular posters on this forum try to make out.

There have been shit loads over the years. I know because I used to be like you, defending GRRM over pretty much everything. But I am not going to spend my time trawling through archives trying to find articles on it!

I still don't get that. Wasting literally hours of your life doing that makes little sense to me. But I do agree that AGOT is teaching us how not to tell a story. And by AGOT I mean ASOIAF. GRRM lost control of his story and D&D have not done an optimum job fixing GRRM's mess. But as they aren't as good as GRRM (who has completely gone off the rails himself) it's no surprise to me and I just enjoy the show for what it is.

There's already plenty out there about why GRRM's isn't great (it's not bad, just over rated by a portion of fanatical ASOIAF readers). As for the show writing being good? It wouldn't be popular if it was bad. It's very rare that a movie/TV adaptation of a novel is better than the novel. There is no doubt that ASOIAF (first three novels) is way way way above that of the show's adaptation. But the fact is the show's dialogue and story telling is nowhere near as bad as the "haters" try to make out to brainwash those that enjoy it into hating it. And of course the reason why the show had to come up with it's own stuff in the first place was because they bought into the whole series being completed in time and it wasn't. Of course GRRM is better at writing than D&D. If only GRRM had actually fulfilled his end of the bargain.

Wrong forum for it and to be fair it's meant to be the 5 year bridging book and isn't finished yet but in my opinion the flaws are: 1) It hasn't covered the 5 years. Which means we all know there needs to be at least two or three more bridging books to bring it to the place where the 5 year gap would have started from (and apparently that is required to ensure the characters are sufficiently aged up). 2) They killed the momentum of the story. 3) Most of the events in the books could have easily been covered through hearsay. 4) Key characters had personality transplants and lost all sense of wisdom, despite exhibiting it in earlier books. 5) It continued the ridiculous amount of chance encounters on the road/in cities. 6) ADWD especially didn't even feel like an ASOIAF book in terms of writing style and content. 7) There was an awful lot of repetition in both the prose and story telling. 8) Many of the arcs in the two volumes simply didn't need to happen and were clearly just filler. As for people hating the show? I am fine with that too (although it bemuses me why they watch it then but it should also teach me the level of individual I am debating with if they hate something and yet still put themselves through it). What I am not fine with them doing is constantly being on people's backs, nit picking over trivial things and trying to come across as intellectually superior.

Agreed on the movies. But not the toy. I agree that the actual tale itself won't go down as a classic. It's a good story, but not a great one. The main thing it will be remembered for is the unusual circumstance of being based on a book series that never completed.

Not in my opinion. Both the books and the TV show are completely unrealistic fantasy. Character interactions and conversations in both are unrealistic. The characters are, as with most stores, hammed up. Character responses to situations are unrealistic because realistic reactions are usually dull etc. One of the two things that really annoys me (book and show) is how they've got this reputation that they're breaking tropes (they're not) and how no one is safe based purely on Eddard getting killed in the first book/series. Since then all the other major characters have pretty much survived (obviously not Catelyn in the show). Even the major supporting cast characters from season one have pretty much survived with the exception of Robb.

See NOW you're becoming boring and less amusing. Why? Because you're adopting spin tactics which for me is the last refuge of someone who cannot back up their opinions with logic.

I don't think he is a master of character development either. E.g. in ADWD Tyrion, Jon and Dany's development from the first three books may as well not happened. Their personalities have completely changed. You could excuse Tyrion for having some kind trauma disorder but in reality because we see his inner thoughts we can clearly see that's not the case. I can't see the show being forgotten like that. And as I said it's a trailblazer. And they're going to milk that cash cow with the spin offs.

I don't believe I am.

No, that's what appeases book fanatics. Especially if the screenplay follows the relevant book very closely. The fact is viewing figures have soared the last few seasons during a period of the show that a lot of book fans are disgruntled with it.

See, I don't think GRRM is a true master. The tale (as are most) is fatally flawed in a few areas that means it will never be a classic book series, especially with what he put out in AFFC and ADWD. But like it or not the TV show will be regarded as a classic because it's become a global cultural phenomenon and is the first of its kind, on TV, in terms of the visuals. Soon it will be common place but AGOT will always go down as being one of the first.

Don't worry about me mate. I find the whole thing amusing (especially condescending responses like yours!), not annoying.

We have different views on ratings then. High art can be boring as hell. Low brow stuff can be entertaining as hell. If someone rates 10 out of 10 then they really enjoyed it and were entertained. And as I pointed out elsewhere, we don't know what would have been in the books. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the ranging behind the wall to bring a wight to King's Landing does happen in the books as well. I am very certain that Cersei will be on the Iron Throne and it will be Dany that deposes her. Which means she'll defeat Aegon.

You are making assumptions that what you hate in terms of plot from the show isn't actually from the books. We have no idea.

And the result would have been the same. Cersei was looking for Jon Snow (believing him to be Eddard's son) to swear an oath. He had three options. 1) Lie. Never going to happen. 2) Answer the question evasively, in which case she'd have pressed it and forced him to choose either option 1 or 3. 3) Say no.

Straw man argument. I don't think I've ever seen anyone say it's high art. The show is not high art. The books are not high art. The fact is people love the show as entertainment and get excited about it. Why do book snobs have to constantly try and nit pick holes in every single thread and ram them down people's throats? The forum has its own nit picking thread where people can rant about the show needing to be cancelled because a character is 0.5cm shorter in the TV show than in the books etc. The negativity doesn't have to be spread to every single bloody thread!