Rhaenys_Targaryen

@Ran, Any opinion on a policy regarding the presence (or absence) of theories on the wiki? There's a policy on when a theory can be removed, but we have no requirements a theory has to meet before one might consider writing a page for it on the wiki. Any thoughts on those minimal requirements? First thing I notice: there are no references whatsoever! Those should be added, because literary support should be the foundation of a theory. General style: try to consistently use the writing styles used on wikipedia's. Not "don't", but "do not", etc. Also, "the Shavepates [...]" should be "the shavepates". The word is only capitalized when referring to Skahaz mo Kandaq, who is the Shavepate. And bullet points are unnecessary in the introduction paragraphs, as you're not listing anything. Perhaps it would be an idea to separate the candidates to those present in Meereen (all subheadings except for Xaro and "external characters [..]"), and those not present in Meereen, and underneath those headings divide the candidates in supporters of Daenerys (slaver families supporting Daenerys, Shavepates, and Freedmen) and those not supporting Daenerys (slaver families oppossed to Daenerys). The Sons of the Harpy are Meereenese nobles, so the first criteria of the theory should be, imo, whether the proposed candidate can be an answer to the question "who would Meereenese nobles be willing to take orders from?". Other Meereenese nobles could potentially fit the bill, but Xaro or anyone else outside of Meereen possibly do not (so this could be a counter-argument), and shavepates (the enemies of the Sons), and freedmen (former slaves) seem absolutely unlikely to fit that criteria. Regarding contents, my biggest concern is the current lack of arguments. Most of the text is speculative, and have no evidence given to suport it. (in more detail below). I know that theories are quite subjective (writing down the information from the books is not, the interpretation of the information is), but I would vote to avoid writing things like "The most obvious candidate", "the likely suspects", and "It honestly seems". You are writing on a wiki, after all, and I guess that the page should reflect the arguments and solutions readers all together have concluded or suggested, thereby not giving preference to one or another outcome (that should be done by the reader personally), or trying to influence one's opinion (by using such wording). Further, statements like "[...] from a dramatic standpoint, Martin making one of them the Harpy may be too obvious." are not arguments, imo. The counter-argument that Hizdahr cannot have been the Harpy because Barristan was able to capture him is also thin, imo. Possibly rephrasing would make it a bit more firm. (E.g., that one might expect the leader of the Harpy's Sons to be heavily guarded by the Sons of the Harpy and their people, while Hizdahr's guard existed out of several former pitfighters which were reasonably easily defeated by Barristan Selmy and the Brazen Beasts). Also, the fact that the actions of the Harpy's Sons continue without Hizdahr is not a counter argument even if Hizdahr is indeed the Harpy. A faction can continue the fight without their leader (e.g., Rhaenyra's supporters fought on for more than half a year after Rhaenyra's death). The section of Daenerys's supporters who might be the Harpy states that Some members of the slave-master class might have simply been feigning allegiance to Daenerys, while intending to stab her in the back when she let her guard down. Several characters suspect that Hizdahr zo Loraq, while openly working with and agreeing to marry Daenerys, may secretly be the leader of the Sons of the Harpy. Galazza Galare, head priestess of the entire city, is overtly one of Daenerys's closest allies and one of the biggest voices calling for peace and stability under her new regime. I would suggest rewording it to something like "several members of the slaver families who have shown support to Daenerys have been suggested as the Harpy, in the believe that they intend to stab her in the back and restore the old ways of Meereen. Among those suggested are [mention names]." Then use bullet points arguing why the characters (two in this case) might be the Harpy. Because the text currently behind the names does not give any arguments. Also, the theory policy as it currently exists states that a theory can be removed if it is purely speculative. An example is the section under "Freedmen", imo. Similar to the Shavepates, one of the former slaves in Meereen may be the secret leader of the Sons of the Harpy: tricking them into rebelling against Daenerys, in order to manipulate her into wiping out allof the former slave-master class, the major families and shavepates alike. All of the text in that section is speculation. There is no textual support given here. So based on the policy as it currently exists, this entire section should be removed. (similar to the shavepate section as it currently is presented). The Shavepates are members of the slave-master class in Meereen who overtly proclaim their allegiance to Daenerys's regime by shaving their heads, as exotic hairstyles used to be a status symbol of the slave-owners. Understandably, while most of them were technically free citizens before Daenerys, they were the poorest and least powerful - minor slave-master families from the lower aristocracy, or simply free merchants and the like. Thus, they stand to gain from the downfall of the more powerful upper strata of the aristocracy. While the Shavepates seemingly benefit from Daenerys's rule at first, she actually doesn't want to completely eradicate the population of former slave-masters (about a quarter of the city's people), and eventually tries to settle for a negotiated peace with the other slaver-cities of the region such as Yunkai. One of the Shavepates may be dissatisfied with this state of affairs, and secretly duped members of the slave-owning class to launch an insurgency against Daenerys, to trick her into executing all of the old and powerful slaver families (such as the House of Pahl) and then going to war with Yunkai. Unless there is a quote in the text specifically stating the first bolded part, remove this (as the absence of such a statement makes this speculation). And they were not "technically free citizens", they were free citizens (all of them, as far as the text suggests if I'm not mistaken). The second bolded part most definitly is speculation, and should be removed. Additionally, the person suggested most frequently is Skahaz, so a mention of his name should not be ommitted (especially since he is the leader of the shavepates, and it thus would be illogical if another shavepate was the Harpy). Also, in line of arguing that the shavepates may want to rid themselves of the powerful slaver families who have not "accepted a new Meereen", Skahaz is an important factor. Arguments for him can be the fact that he attempts to convince Daenerys that the slaver families are her enemies, the fact that he wishes to execute the hostages, his hatred for Hizdahr (if I'm recalling it correctly) and his disdain for the House of Pahl. Since we have no further information on the state of mind of the other shavepates, the suggestion of any of them being the harpy has no support (at the moment). Under Xaro, the sentence used as introduction for the section ("Xaro Xhoan Daxos may have used his considerable wealth and influence to fund the Sons of the Harpy, in order to make Daenerys's rule so weak that she would marry him in return for his aid.") only gives a reason why Xaro would support the Sons of the Harpy. But (financially) supporting them does not make him the leader, so unless a reason is given as to why Xaro would be the leader of the Meereenese nobles, the entire section is superfluous and should be removed. Within the section, there are several things as well. "Daenerys's hold on power was still strong enough that she felt she could refuse Xaro, but still successfully negotiate a truce with the large slaver-alliance arrayed against her." Sounds off, imo. Nothing in this sentence gives a reason as to why Xaro cannot be the Harpy. Additionally, Daenerys did not feel she could refuse Xaro, she refused him (fact), which resulted into war. The "but still" implies that she was able to do the second part in spite of the first part, yet they do not hold a connection with one another. Xaro was not involved in the truce Daenerys negotiated. Also, it omits the important fact that the Harpy's Sons were already opposing Daenerys before Xaro ever left Qarth. The last section states "Several characters who have nothing to do with local politics in Meereen may have launched the insurgency purely to delay her return to Westeros. So long as her hold on Meereen is shaky, she would never abandon her followers there. Specifically, Illyrio Mopatis and/or Varys." which should be rewritten a bit. For example (bold rewritten, strikethrough original text which has been removed): "The Harpy could possibly a character Several characters who havehas nothing to do with local politics in Meereen, but who hopes may have launched the insurgency purely to delay her Daenerys in returning to Westeros, knowing that So long as her hold on Meereen is shaky, she would never abandon her followers theresupporters in Meereen as long as their fates are uncertain. Specifically suggested candidates are Illyrio Mopatis and/or Varys." Fuller sentences read a lot better. Under counter-arguments (without changing the message): The Sons of the Harpy start their opposition almost immediately after Daenerys begins her rule over Meereen. However, as far as the reader is shown, It honestly seems that Illyrio (and thus likely also Varys) believed that Daenerys would travel towards Westeros after taking Meereen, going as far as sending Jon Connington, Prince Aegon Targaryen, and their entourage to meet up with 's plan was for Daenerys at Volantis, the one city she could not avoid visiting when going west. to link up with Aegon VI in Volantis to invade Westeros. News that Daenerys remaining remains in Meereen becomes known only after Connington and his entourage reach Volon Therys, long after the Sons have already begun their campaign. actually seems to have upset their plans considerably. The second counter-argument I'm not sure how to handle. It is dubious if even Illyrio and Varys have the political reach to launch and coordinate a clandestine insurgency against Daenerys, without anyone noticing. The third argument is superfluous. The counter arguments should demonstrate why they cannot be the Harpy, and this is not demonstrating that. It is possible that they provided some aid to whoever is leading the Sons of the Harpy, but even then, they can't be the direct leader in the city itself, when they are seen operating along the Narrow Sea around the same time. In which case the question remains of whoever their middle-man is directly leading the insurgency in the city.

Yes, that's where I got the term from Also, the definitions given for pastime (something that amuses and serves to make time pass agreeably; an activity that is done for enjoyment; something that serves to make time pass agreeably; a pleasant means of amusement, recreation, or sport; An activity that someone does regularly for enjoyment rather than work; a hobby) emphasize the fact that they are activities, while imo the term entertainment suggests more performances and such (which is only part of the activities listed). In my opinion, this template would be better when split into multiple smaller templates, because the groups are so very diverse. Group 1 (Political factions & alliances), Group 2 (Knightly orders), and Group 8 (Sellsword companies) would do well as separate templates, while Group 3 would do best separated into two templates (Order of the Maesters, and Night's Watch) in which not only the organizations structure, but also the location(s) are listed. Group 5 (Religious) might be a separate template, but the contents currently do not allow that I think. The Dosh khaleen are no priests nor anything religious, and although it could be limited to priests only (Red priests, bearded priests, septons, septa's, (possibly sparrows), and drowned men) - Though do not forget that the term "drowned men" has thusfar only been used to refer to the acolytes of Aeron Greyjoy, not to any other priests of the Drowned God. I'd personally sooner suggest creating a template similar to this one of the Faith for R'hllor and any other religion that allows it. Creates more consistency.

Regarding the customs page, my personal preference for the title of the section currently titled "entertainment" would be "pastimes", a term used both in the RPG guides and on the Citadel, as it creates more consistency. Are there any opinions on the title of the subsection? Rorge was one of the attackers, so there is no real incorrection there. But I've changed it to "Rorge" on the page of Clement, as it gives more detail. No one has replied about the theory page yet. When they do, it will likely be on this thread.

Fixed it!

Based on this question: What is the policy on placing theories on the wiki? We have several of them, but I haven't been able to find a list of criteria a theory has to fulfil before it can get its own page. I've only found reasons for a theory to be removed. That a theory has to have evidence to support the arguments seems cleae, but is what else?

@Ran, While ACOK and ASOS establish Lord Gulian Swann as the Lord of Stonehelm, with his eldest son Donnel as his heir, the appendix of ADWD lists Lord Clifford Swann as the Lord of Stonehelm. Could you perhaps shed some light on this? Do you know if this is an error, or is it unknown whether Clifford actually inherited the seat or whether Gulian is meant there?

I found it. It's said in Arianne I from Winds

I found that quote as well, but all it confirms is that Daemon once squired for Oberyn, not that he was knighted by him.

A Feast for Crows, The Soiled Knight: Ser Arys had yet to meet Quentyn Martell. The prince had been fostered by Lord Yronwood from a tender age, had served him as a page, then a squire, had even taken knighthood at his hands in preference to the Red Viper's. As only a knight can make a knight, Oberyn has thus been knighted, otherwise Oberyn knighting Quentyn cannot have been an option. Daemon Sand's page states that he received his knighthood from Oberyn as well, citing AFFC, Cersei V as the source, but I cannot find a quote to back it up. Does anyone else know what quote it refers to?

Added the category!

Would the multiple images template be a useful addition to the wiki? I've created it using the Template:Sandbox, and placed some examples of it's usage on the Sandbox page. The only (small) issue might be seen in the third example (with three images side by side horizontally), which displays as three vertically listed images on mobile view. I figured that this template might be useful for pages such as Heraldry, but I'm not entirely sure. Opinions would be much appreciated Edit: I cleared the sandbox and its template so others can use it again.

The policy is to quote the artist's statement of permission to demonstrate that permission has actually been given. I personally always safe the email (or message) stating the permission, just in case.

Fixed! There are a lot of characters missing from that list I'm currently preparing an update of the list here, which will replace the list on the actual page once finished.

Contact the artist and explain which images you wish to use and for what, ask their permission, and once permission is given, download the image (makes for much better quality than a screenshot), upload it onto the wiki, and quote the permission in the licensing template.

The text calls it "fighting between Ser Addam's men and Lord Walder's", so perhaps (if the usage of first names is not preferred), "fighting between Marbrand's outriders and the Frey's"?

His piece on the Redgrass Field and the destruction of Harrenhal are also excellent. Does anyone here have an account on that website through which to contact the artist by any chance?

We distinguish each of those texts in each character's infobox, which is why I chose to do it here as well. But should we indeed run out of space, changing THK, TSS , and TMK for AKOTSK might indeed be a idea!

Would you happen to know what the limit of the size of a page is?

Work on the new List of Characters is going slowly, but progress is made. I've placed in on this page to work on. If anyone has any comments or suggestions, please do not hesitate to make them! I'm currently wondering about the size. I'm not yet at 50 %, yet I've already passed more than half of the capacity a page has for its size, I think. I'm thinking about using templates to lower the kilobyte count (as working with a template would allow me to omit constantly having to redefine the style parameters (column width and text align)), but I'm not sure whether that will actually help reduce the overall size in kb. Any further thoughts on this?

Is that Visenya in the background? Or does the featurette not specify this?

I've been working on the new List of characters, and at this point I would really appreciate some feedback. (From the parts that are in the preview, only the letter J is not yet complete).

Looks good!

If there's enough information to create a page on the ambush, I see no reason not to have one

I've removed the quote again, as the pieces of important information from it have been incorperated into the text. Giving the entire quote (it's a long one) is not preferable imo. Martin states a few things in his quote: 1) Richard Madden is a great young actor and we want to see him on screen, thus see Robb's storyline (as opposed to following ACOK exactly, where he is entirely off screen). Martin states he agreed with this choice. 2) The second decision is changing the story, giving Robb a new motivation, changing the personality of his wife, her background, etc., 3) because of point 2, Martin suggested to change her name, because a) Jeyne is not a volantene name, and b ) "if we're gonna have a "different character", we should have a different name for her as well. Otherwise, people are gonna get really confused." These three points contain all the info that is important, as Martin's first sentence ("Literally, in the case of Jeyne Westerling/Talisa, it is a completely different character. So that's not even, you know, 'two different versions of the same character', it's a DIFFERENT character, and a different storyline there...") contains the same info as the quote under b )., a quote which remains literally quoted in the text as it is now. So quoting the entire thing is simply not necessary, as the information from it is worked into the text above. The only part where we don't know what he means by it is "... but also that's not a...well, I don't know I shouldn't say more about that.". In my opinion, this sentence adds nothing to the explanation of why the changes were made, and since that's what the section is explaining, that's what the information should stick too. Perhaps others could weigh in on this? Not at all

Overall, I think there is quite some repetition, and the section could do with some shuffeling of the info. The most important comments that I have are given below, with the quoted parts of your text they apply to. "One possibility was that she was a noblewoman pretending to be a healer to go unnoticed as she helped wounded soldiers." Talissa wasn’t pretending to be a healer. She was performing the duties of a healer. If you are suggesting here that “Jeyne Westerling” was pretending to be a woman named “Talisa” so she could go unnoticed in the war-struck westerlands and so prevent getting caught by Stark soldiers on account of her noble blood, that’s simply what you should say This would actually have some thematic resonance with the novels - in which Jeyne's mother, Sybell Spicer, was in fact a spy for Tywin Lannister and knew the Red Wedding was going to happen. Thus if Talisa was a Lannister spy, it would be more of a case of condensing mother and daughter into a single character. Sybel was not a spy for Tywin; As far as we know, she did not pass on any information about Robb to him. Nor did Sybell know about the Red Wedding: “I have two sons as well,” Lady Westerling reminded him. “Rollam is with me, but Raynald was a knight and went with the rebels to the Twins. If I had known what was to happen there, I would never have allowed that.” There was a hint of reproach in her voice. (AFFC) Martin directly stated that the storyline with Talisa in Season 2 of the TV series is not simply what happens "off-screen" in the books with Robb and Jeyne Westerling. Martin did not agree with this change. Is this based on the “but also that's not a...well, I don't know I shouldn't say more about that."” portion of the quote? I can’t say that there’s a definitive indication of Martin not agreeing with the change in this (I’m not saying that there is no proof, I'm saying that the quote you cite as proof might not actually be proof). Martin revealed that this was not a single decision to change "Jeyne Westerling" to "Talisa from Volantis" - there was actually an intermediary step, when they were calling her "Jeyne from Volantis", with no surname. This is significant because it explains the previously not understood casting information from August 11 2011, when Westeros.org contacted HBO but was told that Chaplin's character was just named "Jeyne" with no surname. On September 16 2011, filming spies reported that Chaplin introduced her character in dialogue as "Talisa". Thus at some point in that single month, as Season 2 was filming, Martin had a specific meeting with Benioff and Weiss at which he urged them that this wasn't really the same character as from the books, so they should outright give her a different name. I’d move this to above, where you are actually discussing the casting call, and use the following information to explain the name change from Jeyne to Talissa: In August 2011, HBO told Westeros.org that Chaplin was cast as “Jeyne”. By September 2011, her name had been changed to “Talissa” ("Lissa [sic] from Volantis") According to Bryan Cogman (interview thinkprogress June 8 2012 & interview winteriscoming.net April 2013), the character was originally called “Jeyne”, but her name was changed to “Talisa” during production by Benioff and Weiss, after the writing for season 2 had already been officially wrapped up. The name change has been suggested by Martin, who felt that “Jeyne” was not the name of a Volantene noblewomen (as stated in the introduction paragraph of the page, lacking a source), and because he felt that the character, as Weiss and Benioff had created her, was too different from “Jeyne Westerling” in Martin’s novels. (Your interview quote shows Martin stating that the characters are two different people, but does not cite that this difference was a reason for Martin to suggest the name change, so such a source should be added here as well). Initially, there was some confusion about Talisa being a foreign noblewoman specifically from Volantis, given that the aristocracy of that city are particularly obsessed with being pureborn descendants of the Valyrians, thus they all look like Targaryens: pale skin, blonde hair, purple eyes. Volantene aristocrats are quite descriminatory about racial/ethnic appearance. Chaplin, in contrast, is half-Chilean, with dark hair and olive skin - leading to the simple question of why they made her from Volantis instead of another Free City such as Myr (whose inhabitants actually match that her physical appearance). Talisa in the books actually does have a somewhat darker toned appearance, chestnut hair and brown eyes, due to her maternal grandmother actually being a foreigner from the Free Cities (which one isn't specified). Two things here: The Old Blood, nobles who can prove their unbroken descent from Old Valyria, make up only part of the population of Volantis. As far as I can recall, it has never been stated that there are no nobles living in Volantis who do not belong to the Old Blood. In addition, although the Old Blood trace their descent to the Valyrians, and the appearance of the Valyrians is a typical one (purple/blue eyes, silver hair, pale skin), it has never been stated that al Volantene-born people have the Valyrian appearance. For example, Qavo Nogarys (customs officer in Selhorys), is nobleborn, but has black hair. Nor can I recall Tyrion remarking upon the Valyrian appearance of people during his time in Selhory and Volantis. So the conclusion that all Volantene look like Valyrians/Targaryens is more an assumption. Comparing Talissa’s appearance to Jeyne’s and remarking upon the fact that Jeyne has eastern ancestors might better be moved to the “Volantis” part of the change. Writer Bryan Cogman was also asked about the change in subsequent interviews.[5][6] Cogman explained that he was not directly involved in the change or the writing of this storyline, Benioff and Weiss were, and he had no say in it. Cogman did admit, however, that the change from Jeyne to Talisa was made "during production", after the formal writers' room period for Season 2 had officially wrapped (matching up with the casting announcements and on-set reports). The decision to actually show Robb on-screen at all in Season 2 had been made much earlier than that of course, instead of just giving him the season off and then reappearing in Season 3 (if they strickly followed the books - even Martin didn't want to do that). Cogman also provided some vague explanation for why "Talisa" is from Volantis: the writers had just finished reading A Dance With Dragons after it was released in the break between Season 1 and Season 2, and realized that Volantis was going to be a major location that would actually appear on-screen in later TV seasons, so they wanted to start laying groundwork to introduce it. The bolded part is only about the name change, and would be better suited above (as indicated earlier) About the italic text, I'm not sure if this is even necessary to mention, as it is neither about the name change, nor the background change, nor the character change itself. The last section is not Cogman’s “vague explanation”. This is Cogman’s speculation. The TV writers, realizing that other Free Cities such as Myr may never appear on-screen in the TV series, might simply have decided to drop the story detail about Volantene aristocrats priding themselves on their Valyrian heritage (perhaps making "TV-Volantis" a sort of condensation of book-Volantis and book-Myr, due to limits of adaptation). You are the one who suggests Myr. I’d say stick to the facts. Cogman suggests that the producers (not writers) decided to use Volantis because it was set to reappear in later seasons. There’s nothing that suggests a condensation of Volantis and Myr from the books. In parallel, they may have thought it would take too long to explain that House Westerling is a minor Lannister vassal House that switches sides to the Starks, so they changed Jeyne/Talisa to be a foreigner This is pure speculation. keeping only the core point that she is a political nobody, and Robb gains nothing by marrying her. Although I would personally rephrase this to suite the wikipedia-style better (not calling her a political nobody, but rephrasing it to say that she has no political power in the Seven Kingdoms), the point that the end result of marrying her with regards to "the political advantage the marriage gives Robb" is the same can remain, because it is important to point out. Thus "why Jeyne Westerling was changed to Talisa" is actually posing two separate questions: This bolded intercepting questing is quite unnecesssary, because the first of the two bullet points that follow is mostly repeating what you have already said. If you condense that precedes this (remove your own speculations about Myr, remove unnecessary comparisons with Yara Greyjoy and Alton Lannister, etc.) the text in the first bullet point is basically what the end result will be.. After the Robb Stark character was killed off during the Red Wedding at the end of Season 3 of the TV series, Benioff and Weiss bluntly admitted in an interview with Entertainment Weekly: Benioff: "In the TV show, we've spent more time focused on Robb than in the books, mainly because we love Richard Madden as an actor."[7] Jeyne from the books was changed to a romance storyline with "Talisa", specifically because Benioff and Weiss wanted to pander Richard Madden, the actor, in his performance as a romantic lead That’s not what the quoted part said. They say that Robb received more screen time because they loved the actor. Giving him a romantic storyline would not necessarily have required to change Jeyne into Talisa the way they had. (for example, he could have fallen in love with the captive nobleborn daughter of a Lannister lord). If there never was an abandoned storyline, and what appeared on-screen in the final version is what they always intended, Benioff and Weiss themselves have stated that they invented a romance subplot with Jeyne/Talisa primarily to show off Richard Madden, the actor. If their original intention was for her to be a Lannister spy, it was purely meant to fuel Madden's performance when the revelation of her betrayal left him heartbroken. An abandoned storyline is pure speculation, as is the possible result that might have come from that story line. Thus the change from Jeyne Westerling to Talisa happened, because it was one of the earlier examples of "We reconceived the role to make it worthy of the actor's talents". The only thing you have cited is that the producers wanted to give Richard Madden more screen time. You’ve cited nothing about them wanting to give Oona Chaplin more screen time, which is what you imply by citing the expansion of Indirma’s screen time as an example.