Epyon

LF has Jon Arryn killed because "Chaos is a ladder"... No seriously... Removing the Lord of the Vale frees up Lysa to eventually marry him and get him much more power long term, since Lysa was obsessed with him (basically giving him defacto control of the Vale in the short term, and total control when he eventually marries her), while also helping himself to garner favor with the Lannisters, since it's implied that he knew (or was close to discovering) that none of Robert's children where actually his. By then having Lysa write a letter to Winterfell claiming the Lannisters did it, he's setting the stage for hostilities between Stark and Lannister (and in essence weakening both of their positions), and effectively causing Ned to leave Winterfell for King's Landing, which gives LF the opportunity he needs to get rid of him as well. I don't doubt that Ned would have been killed down there eventually (and it blamed on the Lannisters), had a better opportunity not presented itself to both rid himself of Ned AND garner more favor (and a Lordship of Harrenhal) with the Lannisters in the incident that gets Ned arrested.... Truth be told his plans/schemes where pretty well done early on in the show/books.... It's only his post GRRM story where his character kind of falls off the rails a bit.

I actually took the whole fiasco to be more that Sansa was buying the things Littlefinger was saying, until LF tried telling her that Arya was doing it all so that she could replace her as Lady of Winterfell.... which is when Sansa finally realizes that Arya would pretty much hate everything about being being a Lady, so that would be an incredibly stupid, and out of character reasoning for Arya to be a threat, and as such finally realizes LF is playing her. At least that's what I think was supposed to be the intent there, even if the overall plot fell quite flat on selling it.... Not unlike when they tried to sell Cersei/Jaime's "consensual" sex scene next to Joffrey's corpse as consensual a few seasons back.

Something I've been thinking about that happened last episode regarding Sansa....... She tells Jon that "No one" can protect her, and that "no one" can protect anybody..... With Arya back in the picture (and apparently being able to do a full faceless man face swap), I wonder if Sansa + Arya team ends up being what removes Littlefinger from the game, or perhaps stopping some kind of assassination plot by Cersei (who now apparently would have the power to do that from Kings Landing) As per the Varys teleportation thing.... Ughh that was mega cringe worthy.... They really need to try and do a better job of relating the idea that these scenes aren't happening as rapid fire sequentially as they appear.... and that, unless specifically referrenced between different characters, the clips aren't even in sequence relative to one another. In that particular mess of a scenario.... the only way it makes sense is if: -Tyion ruling Mereen was months of time -Varys leaving Mereeen occurred early -The Ironborn arrived days, if not weeks after the Battle -Varys gets to Dorne, -Cersei burns the Sept down, becomes Queen. -Dorne/Varys summon Olenna -Olenna agrees to the alliance. -Varys + Dornish and Reach ships sale to Mereeen -Daenarys actually has enough ships to go to Westeros -Varys standing next to Daenarys and Tyrion on the boat. This is also going to mean that Cersei will be ruling unopposed in King's Landing.... for all of: -The time it takes a raven to spread the news to the Reach, and to Dorne -The time it takes Dorne to invite Olenna, and then Olenna to travel to Dorne -The time it takes for the entirety of the Dornish and Reach-ish? fleets to sale to Mereen -the time it takes for them to sale to back to Westeros with Daenarys All before Daenarys makes landfall.... Sounds like a few months at least. Then again, none of that addresses how Jaime marched up to Riverrun, then the Twins, then all the way back to Kings landing in time to see the Sept still smoldering..... given how close Cersei's trial was supposed to be when he was still arguing about departing in the first place.

It was infinitely better than the last episode, that's for sure... May not be entirely in order scene wise. 7/10 -Bran warging, and the introduction to Hodor (Willis), Ned/Benjen/Lyanna was interesting. -Pointing out Meera was still alive... and is emo about it, seemed pointless.... but Leaf saying that Bran will be leaving the cave was interesting -Tyrion/Dragon scene: Parts of it where good, but the writing is struggling heavily with these scenes. The concept of the dragons being intelligent, and not wanting to BBQ Tyrion was good... The execution was less so.... "Don't eat the help" was good, asking Varys of all people to punch him if he ever has an idea like that again was not..... It really felt more like they had to force us to remember that the dragons even existed.... though I'd wager they may be trying to establish Tyrion as a dragonrider. -Sansa/Theon: One of the better acted scenes in recent memory, surprisingly.... carried almost entirely by Alfie's ability to project the sheer desolation of Theon's life. Brianne or Pod not remembering the HOUND's name was mega cringe worthy, however. -Jaime/High Sparrow..... Jaime not having a full guard compliment at this point is stupid... as was the High Sparrow doing the "surprise henchmen everywhere" bit that you typically only see in B-Movies. I still have yet to discern any reason the faith are a threat that can't/wouldn't have just been rounded up and executed... and the show has done a wretched job of explaining that. -Tommen/Cersei scene.... Tommen can't die soon enough... Cersei is getting there. -UnGregor murders random guy from bar..... Why was UnGregor in a bar to hear this.... How does no one notice a mammoth sized Kingsguard sneaking around murdering people on the street.... This was even stupider than Arya getting he face kicked in on a crowded street with no one noticing. -Arya/Faceless men..... I'm thrilled they are apparently moving this along to something slightly less stupid than a Blind girl getting into a staff fighting match daily in the middle of a crowded street...... with no witnesses. -Euron/Balon: I'm actually really upset this wasn't "Jaqen Haqar" (aka a faceless man, since he's the "face" of them) rather than Euron. The whole scene was apparently supposed to be Euron's big entrance as this tough guy, and well.... meh. I'd rather have had it been Jaqen, then show Euron paying him later. -Roose: I haven't really liked the interpretation of Roose from the beginning.... He's supposed to be this highly intelligent, always kind of offputtingly creepy.... and more or less entirely emotionless sociopath is how I expected.... I've never once really gotten that from show Roose. -Ramsey: Show Ramsey, on the other hand, is closer.... and I think he was doing well when he was torturing Theon..... but I think he would have -enjoyed- fat Walda and baby Bolton getting ripped apart more. -The giant grabbing that dude by the leg and baseball bat smashing his head into Castle Black is like my favorite thing ever on this show. Surprised the Wildlings didn't just murder everyone and be done with it, however. -I still don't get how Davos knew, or expected Mel to be able to raise the dead..... Or why in the world it was so critical for her to try and raise John, a guy Davos barely knows, over trying to find Stannis and raise him..... Or why exactly Davos is acting like Mel's BFF now. -Am a little let down that was apparently Mel, and not Bran/Bloodraven raising him.... which I think would have made for a more interesting twist.... but I see nothing to suggest Bran is anywhere near ready to actually do anything but watch things previously DVR'd by the trees (also I'm very curious how he can view Dorne for the Tower of Joy scene next week..... since there are zero weirwoods down there) EDIT: Also the deaths this week.... It almost feels like this is the new "Boob quota" that must be filled..... We killed 3 people today, but all 3 people where more or less afterthoughts to the entirety of the show and plotline.... "Oh remember that guy we haven't seen, heard about, or talked about for a while?.... WELL SHOCKER.... He dies!!" Balon hasn't even been part of the show, even when he was part of the show.... Walda's entire career has been like 3 really small, awkward scenes.... She was barely a character.... And Roose has gotten significant screentime, with nearly no significant development as a character, outside of being Ramsey's dad. I'm not sure how people are supposed to really care about these characters dying, when they had about as much story significance as a random group of zombies on The Walking Dead.

Here's my take, by location: Wall scenes: I feel like they're really trying to hard to set up next week's events... but I was still OK with it overall this week.... Camp Stannis: Stannis early scenes: I don't feel like they showed the desperation enough... building up to the choice. I'd have wanted to see Stannis maybe lose his temper and yell at Davos to send him to the wall or something. Shireen and Selyse I thought both did perfect performances.... Stann the man did well, but not great.... Tough scene to act.... It was tough to watch... on par with Walking Dead's "The Grove" (just look at the flowers) Mereen... ehh I felt like it went about 3-5 minutes longer than it should have... Lot's of fluff that wasn't needed.... Dany squirming with Jorah looking to be killed was good.... and the desperation of the fight against the harpies was also good... Flying away with 40 people still surrounding everyone else was kinda ridiculous though. Dorne: Doran finally grew a pair... cheers to that.... and the Sandsnakes are only moderately terrible characters now.... and still with less depth after one season than Oberyn had after one scene. Ellaria was confusing, with her like quasi apology to Jaime..... and I don't know why the hell we're getting Trystane on the small council, instead of one of the Sand Snakes... Nor do I see what in the world we could be doing next season in Dorne, unless they cast a Darkstar. Overall not as good as last week's "hardhome", but Dany squirming over Captain Friendzone, and Shireen's sacrifice + Selyse breaking down I think gave the season 2 of the better moments in an otherwise lackluster season

Well, it's certainly shaping up differently than expected.... -Melisandre and Shireen both leaving the wall.... I actually thought that Mel was trying to hint to Selyse that they might need to sacrifice Shireen somehow, while Stannis was gone (the way she was talking about how King's blood runs in her veins, then stared at Selyse like an episode or two ago) -I also have no idea who saves Jon once the NW goes all Stabby Stabby on him. -I actually expected Reek to seem a little more pathetic/submissive around Sansa -Jorah = John Conn now.... Meh... other than that Greyscale is apparently a big deal endgame wise (I'd expected it to be irrelevent) -Daenarys' marriage proposal was bleh..... I kind of liked the desperation factor from the books, where she does it as a bargain to stop the killing - Greyworm/Missandrei is just so pointless. -They keep mentioning the Crypts of Winterfell..... It'd be -very- interesting if Stann the man is the one who finds out John is a Targ. Definitely giving credence to the theory that there's something important down there. -I was wondering how they'd handle Brienne being recognizable by Roose / she is outside Winterfell -Nice touch using the tower that Bran fell from -wtf Valaryia

Perhaps someone shorter (and apparently far more intoxicated) will get there at some point this season.

I think you underestimate the power of a good speech, and strong leadership. She could have easily responded, when the chants of the former slaves asking for mercy started. something along the lines of: "Mercy? You ask for mercy, for a confessed murderer? How many of you would so willingly forgive the murder of one of your own, if Mossador had slain them? There are no more slaves here, and there are no more masters here. Here, all the people of Mereen are equal, and all will be given equal justice.This man is a confessed murderer of a citizen of Mereen and the penalty for murdering a citizen of Mereen is death." Followed abruptly and unceremoniously by Mossador getting his head chopped off. The point would have been emphasizing the equality of the citizens, and the equality of justice, with the actual execution just being a result..... Instead, Daenarys made the execution of Mossador the entire focal point, rather than the concepts of equality and justice. It's the difference between Mossador being executed as an anonymous murderer, and a symbol of equality between the two castes -or- Mossador being seen by the former slaves as a martyr, because Daeny comes off looking like a corrupt politician scratching the back of the masters. *Edited for clarity

That was actually my point... She had the right reasoning, and right idea.... and yet she still managed to screw it up entirely by getting up and making a weak speech, while looking like anything but a strong leader, who upholds justice. It kind of goes back to one of her early scenes with the Dothraki and Viserys, where she's begging the Dothraki to not hurt him, rather than acting like a ruler and ordering him released.. She isn't a strong ruler, and continually makes mistakes pretending otherwise. And that's not a complaint, rather it's actually a compliment, as it is actually exactly how her character is supposed to be portrayed right now.

The good: -Brienne and Sansa's story are already better than the book counterparts -An excuse to get Bronn to do something -Lady Mormont's letter to Stannis..... and Jon laughing in Stannis' face -Kevan Lannister's whole interaction with Cersei (and in fact, I hadn't noticed until now Kevan Lannister has been a repeat actor since S1) -Maester Aemon being the final vote for Jon -Gilly and Shireen's scene was nice... Gilly getting awkward as Shireen pressed towards finding out what actually happens to greyscale infected North of the wall was well acted. -Sam talking smack about Slynt -Barristan finally talking about the Mad King to Daenarys The bad: -Jon Snow's Election felt -super rushed- -Doran.... I see lot's of people liked him in this episode, I was not one of them... I expected more of a Michael Corleone feel (that is calm, patient,decisive.... but someone who commands equal amounts of respect, and fear)... This Doran felt flacid... and frankly weak. -Arya's story was nearly entirely worthless here. -Ditto Tyrion's. Nothing that wasn't already covered at Illyrio's, save the bit about Shae asking him to leave, and him liking ruling. The Best and Worst -The execution and resulting riot... I didn't recognize the slave from Dany taking Mereen... There was little to no other buildup of him, other than some pissed off young man slave, who managed to get a few lines. I didn't even know he had a name. As such, there was little to no reason to actually care that he got his head chopped off.... That said, it was kind of well done if you ignore the red Star Trek shirt slave... The writing has to move the story towards a point, and that point is further civil unrest in Mereen. I doubt I was the only one who cringed in seeing a scene where Daenarys has a legitimate shot at being an effective ruler, and again,just failed horribly.... Had Daenarys simply gone out in public and said, "We have laws in my city, and Master or Slave, murderers will be punished" and then had the guy's head lopped off, the crowd wouldn't have been in a position to argue, and she would have shown the former slaves and former masters as equals.... Instead, in her quest to do the right thing, and with the same summary of actions, she instead managed to alienate both sides, and become a focal point/symbol of hatred and injustice to both factions. It feels like it was such easy solution, and she managed to effectively turn it into a train wreck with her ineptitude. Like the episode of the Simpsons where Homer is making food for Mr. Burns, and it keeps catching fire via the various cooking methods.... Finally,for the punchline he pours milk into a bowl of cereal, and again... it bursts into flames.... That is Daenarys ruling Mereen, and it's actually one thing the show has nailed, especially in this episode. The Ugly: -Ellaria... The writing here felt just awful -Mace Tyrell.... This isn't even a character, its a caricature.

I don't think anyone is really complaining about the battle itself, which was genuinely well done... The real problem was that the episode didn't actually do all that much to move the storyline forward, leaves a MASSSSSSIVE amount of things that somehow need to now fit into the finale, and really felt lacking from a "reason to care" in many places. What went well: -Jon gets to assume a higher leadership role, but this is something he's already been doing. The single most interesting dynamic of that for me, was when he comes across his friends in the tunnels by the dead giant, knowing that his orders are the reason his friend was dead. That's something of a big growth/leadership moment for a battlefield commander. -Sam gets to man up, but again, something he's already been doing. What didn't really go over well: -Yggrite's death was very detached, and I'm not talking about the acting, which seems to be the common complaint. John and Ygrrite haven't been together for an entire season, and there's been little reason to see her as a sympathetic character this season. I also didn't like how they depicted the kid killing her... Coulda gone over much better/had more emotional impact if he sees her, recognizes her, and hunts her down as she's hunting John down, maybe even being tearful or angry when he fires at her...There could have been real emotional impact of that kid avenging his family... instead it was just "suprise arrow, lol!" and him doing a "sup bro?" to John... -There's no real resolution from the whole thing, on any real level.... The entire episode was just Orson Lannister smashing some beetles.

I liked the episode overall... Some things in particular: -John gets his taste of command -John forced to send his friends to their deaths in the tunnel -John actually wins a damn fight (still gets disarmed though, lol) -Sam's had a good role this week -Thorne actually ended up being strangely likeable And things I didn't like: Seriously though, wtf no Stannis... Now you have to chew into next week's show to close that plotline out, on top of: Killing the Hound, Arya heading to Braavos, Jaime nearly killing Varys/Tyrion's escape, Tysha story time, Shae dying, Tywin dying, and possibly a Lady Stoneheart omg ending... That is a rediculous amount of stuff to push into one episode... especially when the previews also hinted at Cersei/Tywin scenes, and Danaerys/Dragon scenes.

He was disarmed, and about to be executed until Craster's daughter jumped in and stabbed the guy in the back.... As for the fights before that... It's fairly well shown that many of the men in the Night's Watch are complete novices at best when it comes to sword fighting.... and even if they weren't the fighting odds are ~7-8men counting Jon, versus 11 former Night's Watch who have all spent the entire month drinking and sleeping with inbred girls... it'd be a stretch to assume that any of those 11 are in any serious fighting shape by that point, and they are taken by surprise(or at least not all awake, dressed, and armed when the battle starts)... Imo the odds where with Jon's group regardless I agree with this, and I'm not trying to really derail this thread, I just think it's somewhat interesting that he isn't that good of a swordsman, especially when you consider he's one of the people most likely to wield Lightbringer/be AAR (if that ever actually happens in the show/books), and also, as a member of The Night's Watch, someone who is going to be in a place that constantly requires him to rely on his swordplay to survive.

My thoughts: -Hodor almost said a word that wasn't Hodor!!!!!!! When he de-wargs, he looks at his hands and starts saying "why?" but cuts off mid word... Yes this actually bothered me... The actual reaction to being warged and murdering a dude was well done. -I thought it was hilarious how the show pretty blatantly just jumped in and stomped on the hopes and dreams of conspiracy theorists... Syrio is alive, is literally openly mocked by the Hound, and the "Jojen paste" theory just went up in flames. I feel like GRRM took a sadistic pleasure in both of those things happening. -I feel like we're going to see some "token book spoiler" in every episode now. Tonight it was Jojen + Meera dieing in a fire. -The editing for the Snow/Ghost reunion was... off putting and obvious. Also Ghost's head changes sizes abruptly for the shot where it's an actual dog. -I was confused by Cersei's kindness to Margery.... and I was completely oblivious to basically all "cattiness" between the two (which I'm told by my girl had totally happened) #obliviousmalenotunderstandingestrogeninduceddrama -Arya + Hound is my favorite show duo of all time. I've loved literally every scene with them both in it. -Locke being smart enough to sneak into a camp, then dumb enough to walk directly into hanging pots/track mud footprints into the snow right to the door where the hostages are. -Jon Snow apparently kind of sucks at fighting... He's lost literally every single fight against someone who knows what they're doing (except Halfhand, who arguably let him win). Was he this inept in the books? -Everything at the Eeryie was brilliant. SR throwing the toy out the door, Lysa being so hilariously crazy (the Septon behind door #1 thing was hilarious to me), Peter trying to not look like he's being tortured. -As someone earlier in the thread pointed out, Bran killing the man who maimed Jaime (who in turn maimed Bran) is an interesting touch. -The Iron Bank being such a world super power... despite being based on an island that shouldn't even have a functional economy (nothing is grown there, and even the water has to be boiled... so they'd have to import -EVERYTHING-), let alone the assets/financial control it does, is really starting to bother me. -One last thing, on Sansa being so kind about Tyrion. They are kind of forced into it, because of the whitewashing on Tyrion's character... You just really wouldn't be able to keep Sansa completely sympathetic on the show by having her badmouth one of the main "heroes" of the show. Show Tyrion would need to be much more ambigious/grey to really pull off any antipathy from Sansa. It's actually kind of an interesting development on it's own, because his upcoming transformation is going to be exceptionally jarring for pure show viewers. My conspiracy theory about this, is that they might be trying to set up Tyrion and Sansa actually embracing their marriage at the endgame of the series (him controlling Casterly Rock, and her potentially controlling The Vale, The Riverlands, Harrenhal, and the North)

Warning, about to go off the rails to crackpot central station: I'm starting to think that the "Great other" is really the "woman" White Walker that seduced the Night's King. And along that line of thinking: She would have been the equal, but opposite companion/mate of the red religion's "Lord of Light", who represents fire and warmth. Thus, "A Song of Ice and Fire" is -REALLY- about Her + Lord of Light, rather than necessarily about Dany + Jon (which is probably the popular theory thus far), and their respective forces war against one another. After all, two deities at each other's throats, particularly if they where former mates of some kind, is a much greater story than any small tale about mortals scurrying about for some Iron Chair. Also, I found the castle + battlements pictured in the end of the show very interesting as well, in conjunction with this theory. If the "Queen of the -real- North" has indeed created fortifications in a land that perfectly represents her own nature, then it's possible the "Lord of Light" has also done the same in a similarly fire themed local... the prime possibility for this is, imo: Old Valaryia/The Doom of Valaryia, the only fire themed place on Planetos that people can't seem to go to. I'm now very curious if there are "Red Walkers" near it, or if the "Lord of Light" is also taking human "brides" as his "queens", much like the WW-Queen does with the Night's King. Finally, I think there's a distinct possibility that the exclusion of Coldhands from the show, but -not- excluding Benjen early on, might be a hint that Benjen is NOT Coldhands, but possibly IS this New Night's King. The last one was allegedly a Stark too, afterall, and was killed... so him being alive there to Midas touch the baby seemed a bit... strange. As I said, a whole lot of crackpot going on here, but interesting stuff to think about.

Wow this thread has exploded since last night.... Not going to read through the 30 ish new pages, but something I caught on my rewatch: Littlefinger tells Sansa that the Tyrells are his co-conspirators, but does it in a way where he seems to be testing her. It's two statements he makes about them: 1. The obvious statement about how it greatly benefited them (the ambiguous them), and that they really wanted it done. 2. The very subtle remark at the very end of the scene where he comments that his relationship with them is.... wait for it.... "growing strong" (aka House Tyrell's words). I thought that second line especially was an excellent touch.

Some thoughts/things that bothered me: 1. Saw it twice, and while I thought there might be a stone missing from the right side (Sansa's left) of the necklace.... I never actually saw Olenna take it, let alone touch the cup... 2. There was also literally no way Tyrion could have poisoned the wine, with the entire wedding party literally staring directly at him. There should literally be a multitude of witnesses that can testify he's innocent, with the way the show framed it. 3. Margery is handed the cup from Joffery, and purposely doesn't drink from it/sets it down. It's quite likely show Margery knew -something- was going to happen. 4. They don't at all run with the implication that it was Joffery who sent the assassin after Bran.... I can't for the life of me figure out why they'd leave that out. 5. Shae's storyline feels really awkard..... I'm not of the opinion that she gets whitewashed comepletely and survives, because her death is, imo, half of what really "breaks" Tyrion and sends him to that dark place for the next couple of books (the other half being the true story of Tysha) 6. The implication that Bronn, or Varys have betrayed Tyrion directly seems strange. 7. Loras and Oberyn eye****ing each other seemed odd too.... Aren't the Martells and Tyrells on very unfriendly terms? 8. Stannis being a believer.... da hell...? 9. Cersei as a -former- Queen Regeant was able to order Pycelle to directly contradict a decree from Joffery (announced by acting Queen Margery). It's the third time Cersei has -publicly- commited HIGH TREASON (The first being when she burns an official sealed letter from King Robert, and the second being when she slaps Joffery in the throne room) 10 The Brienne and Cersei scene...just struck me as weird.