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I think he will listen to what Mance has to say, but I don't think it will alter his plans to try and kill him if he gets the chance.

But he can murder bastard infants and children, so he MUST be a great fighter, right?

Agreed. I didn't see the characterizations of either as wrong...actually, I'm glad we see a different side of Thorne than we do in the book, because he always felt too one-note for my liking. Giving him some shades of grey doesn't change his character, it just makes him more real, imo.

I look forward to it myself, it nothing else for the bitching and moaning XD

Honestly, I think his arc is better on the show than in the book because he's more believable as a leader, and it's more believable that he will get elected LC.

He's going under the guise of parley...he can't take weapons with him because he would get killed immediately. By pretending to negotiate a truce, he can get close to Mance. In the book he is sent to kill Mance under the guise of parley...here, he makes the decision to do it himself.

Where the whores go :)

Actually, it is- part one was this episode, part two is the next episode. That would be incredibly anticlimactic and nothing like the book- her death here was much more accurate. Several viewers counted on-screen deaths of the NWmen at about 30-50 people. So they lost about half of their men, it seems.

Well, if he didn't show up, Jon would die and the Wildlings would breach the Wall, destroy the Night's Watch and go raiding all over the realm. So yeah, he sorta has to show up.

I'm the same way. Nothing's perfect, but nothing ever will be. For me, it just means that the flaws were so minor in relation to the rest of the episode that they are barely noticeable. Also, if an episode grips me from start to finish, it's a 10 for me.

I would be surprised if we didn't get at least part of the Battles of Mereen and Ice in season 5, tbh.

And I'm surprised so many people gave this a 1 or a 2 based on the fact that Stannis didn't arrive. People vote how they want- you don't have to agree with the overall consensus, but that doesn't mean anyone is wrong. It just means some people like something different than you do.

...but that's what was happening there, even if the books didn't explicitly talk about it. I don't like rape, but it was completely obvious to me that those men would be using Craster's wives like that. And we never see it in the books because we basically don't get to see anything of the mutineers other than Coldhands' having killed them. I don't think anyone would have cared about the rape at if it hadn't aired so soon after the episode with Jaime and Cersei, tbh. If the show was going to show Craster's Keep, then it makes sense that they would show what the mutineers are doing to them. And I would have to disagree that everyone 'hated' it...Karl "The Fooking Legend" Tanner went up in popularity dramatically after that, and many people loved his death scene...especially since one of the abused women helped to kill him. I've already said why it added to their characterization, so I completely disagree with you there. And there are MANY things in this show that don't advance the plot that isn't filler. All of the interaction between Tyrion and Cersei, for example - it's not technically necessary to see him talk with his sister (something that isn't in the books but was added to the show), but it was absolutely great characterization for both Tyrion and Cersei. I think most people claim 'filler' to be something they don't care for, more than something that really is filler and doesn't belong in the show. I would say that CK belonged in the show, just like Tyrion and Cersei's talks belonged in the show. I would say that some of Theon's torture scenes didn't belong in the show because dwelling on absolutely everything they did to him wasn't necessary in order to drive the point home.

But that's the hang-up...what's really 'filler'? I see people throw around the word to mean 'anything that wasn't in the books'...but I don't think that's a fair definition, because to me, filler is something that has no point and is there to take up time, whether it's from the books or not. CK is something that I found very necessary for Jon Snow and Bran Stark because we needed to see more of their characters' journeys, and we needed to see them grow into the roles their roles- Jon as a leader, and Bran as an incredibly powerful seer. It wasn't pointless, especially now that we have seen the Battle for the Wall and how the CK mission essentially made Jon into a leader that the men trusted when his time came to take control. Take away CK, and then you just have Jon Snow fighting the entire season with Thorne and Slynt...he has no way to prove himself as a capable leader without it, and the books didn't provide any alternatives because the book throws Jon straight into fighting as soon as he gets back to Castle Black. Take CK away from Bran, and we have...nothing. Basically, nothing. Nothing until he gets to the CotF. You could put Coldhands back in there, but still, that doesn't nothing for Bran's character...it just makes him look that more incompetent because he needs supernatural help to get there. To me, Locke's mission to kill Bran was "filler"...he literally didn't have a point. His only purpose was to make Bran warg Hodor to kill him, and they didn't need Locke to make that happen- of course, that could be important in the future, but it wasn't here. But other than that, the rest of it was needed.

Craster's Keep was more about characterization than plot line, but it was still necessary, for both Jon and Bran's characters. Without that, we don't see Jon become a capable leader (and a better fighter), and we don't see Bran choose his destiny. I think without that deviation, both characters fall flat. I think Locke could have been left out completely, but other than that, I thought it worked well.

THoW was a fake.

Agreed. It was hard to like for or root for Stannis until he came to the rescue of the Wall. I liked him the most when he gave the credit for it to Davos by saying that he wouldn't have come if Davos hadn't set him straight on the matter. "I was trying to win the throne to save the realm when I needed to save the realm to win the throne". Would love if they kept some version of that in when Stannis and Jon talk...oh man, I can't wait to see those talks next year, that will be so awesome. Until this episode, it would have been hard to imagine show Jon Snow being able to banter with Stannis on equal ground...but now? Hell yeah, Jon is now in his element and won't take shit from anyone XD Also can't wait for Jon's interaction with Melisandre. Don't guess we'll get Davos at the Wall for very long, though.

I'm guessing the NW lost about 50 men all told.

My absolute favorite part in the episode is where Jon jumps off the elevator, kills a few people, then stops (and the music stops)....looks around...then *cue music* and he starts fighting just as the 360 track shot begins. It was so, so perfect in every single way and sent a shiver of excitement down my spine.

Honestly, I think his arc is better on the show than in the book because he's more believable as a leader, and it's more believable that he will get elected LC.

The preview isn't the episode. And we only know what we are seeing because we know the story. My family who hasn't read it? They all think Jon Snow is going to die or something very bad is going to happen to him and the Wall. They don't know what's coming, and you have to look at the show from the POV of not having read the books to get it.

Are you serious? The entire point of ending it like they did had nothing to do with Stannis...they ended it that way to make Jon's mission seem absolutely hopeless and to make it look like the NW will fall soon. Showing ANYONE come in and save them would completely undermine that, and they didn't want to do that. It has absolutely nothing to with Stannis.

I'm the same way. I don't think he's a hero, but I don't think he's a villain, either. I try to just see him as he's portrayed and nothing else.

His coming is in the trailers for Season 4 and in the trailer for episode 10. They aren't leaving it out and never were.

Honestly, I can't think if any moment more shocking than Cat's return...even Tywin's death.