valirpaz

Ramsay is the new Joffrey, not only since this season I am looking forward to see this disgusting sadist die. Will Sansa do it with the tool she stole this episode? I doubt it, I fear she will fail and suffer more. Once she es out of there I assume she will end up becoming a hard, revengeful ruler. I found it a bit naive of Sansa to trust Theon, not sure how much time has passed since her arrival but she must have seen how much Theon fears Ramsay, how much a pet he is who does everything he has to. Also she must have seen Ramsays brutal rule. Shouldn't she be a bit more careful with endangering the people that support her? Imagine Ramsay had not slaughtered the old lady rightaway but used her to spy out the network of loyal Stark supporters? Will Wreak in one dramatic scene finally turn Theon again? I think so. Whether just to die or continue living, curious... I very much appreciated the turn with Cercei this episode. Oh so confident in her conspiracy and then she trapped herself. Now who will fill the vacuum around Tommen? The zealots? Little Finger? Or Olenna, after all she's a experienced relative? Will somebody raid and destroy the sparrows soon (knights templar / St. Bartholomew's day style)? After all religion is only useful as long as it serves the rulers. Or will KIng's Landing become a sort of Vatican? I definitely find the High Sparrow and his followers very interesting, as with Melisandre's cult. The depiction and rise of these different religious movements contributes to making the world deeper, beyond all the killing, conspiracies and nudity. Similarily in my opinion more room/time could be given to the conflicts between masters and ex-slaves, the depiction of the Dorne society (which we have not seen much about).

This is a very good point you made. In the discussion thread of the last episode I said about the aunt's death: "generally I don't see, how this should change their plans. Yes the aunt's dead but that still means that she's got her cousin in the vale and shouldn't make it less safe for her. And if you apply traditional nobility values her cousin would still reward the hound. But I'm sure there'll be an event why that won't happen." But now, with what you said, if Arya learns that Baelish has custody of her cousin and thus in a powerful position - that might be a reason why Arya will not enter the Vale - and thus not meet Sansa. I think Arya and the Hound will stick together. They are a great combination and by now I think Arya starts to like the Hound and vice versa. Also she thinks she has no family left so he's the only one who protects her in these dangerous lands. I'm not sure Jon would be such a logical choice to go to: Doesn't being in the watch basically mean you live without much property? How could the Hound think he could get any money off Jon? But moving North would be an interesting turn: it would be very dangerous because around Winterfell people would probably recognise her. And where else would they move (other than that Arya has to end up in Braavos. ;)

Considering how they portraied him I can't see that he changes sides. He seems like the kind of guy who would still look for ways to support her from a distance. For example go back to Westeros and send her useful information. Or try to forge new alliances in Braavos. maybe it's also an option to have him disappear. From how the stories have developed so far, I doubt there will be a reunion. Arya was so close before, and Brann / Jon were so close too and it didn't happen. They could still go in but maybe Sansa is travelling around, and if they meet at all, I think it will be short before some other dramatic event occurs. I agree with you on that, I also thought that about the giant. Yes but why? Wasn't her hesitating close to it? She indicated she was unsure about whether she should kill him. Would loosening the bow rightaway fit her character? She fired three (or four?) arrows into him last time. So I thought this ambiguity in the scene fit. Can you maybe explain? It's natural everyone has characters they like and dislike, I'm just interested in what/why you find him annoying. Who knows maybe Jon can negotiate a compromise. The North is lost anyways, so what does it matter if it's controlled by the Lannisters or by Wildlings, provided they settled down in their original lands and did not slay everyone? So far I see your point but don't feel much about the Wildlings. Would have been different if say, Jon stayed with them longer and we got more attachment. Or if they were at the border of King's landings with the real contrast yes, but the North is more Central European Knights rather than Romans, I'm not sure I'd like to see all these lands being pillaged and burnt and butchered. PS: [off topic] I do agree with you though that in popular film or also in documentaries (e.g. Rome - Rise and Fall of an Empire) there's quite a imbalanced storytelling about the "good, civil" Romans (how brutally they may be) vs the scary ruthless "barbarians".

Thanks, nice to hear! Although it must be funny to see people wildly guess about things that you already know. ;) I think that's how I will spend part of this year too: re-watch the 4 seasons. We should then open a non spoiler thread to discuss our new connections. My problem is that in a book I could flip back and forth pages where somebody is from who he is related to, check maps. Whereas on TV I forget things and think by this I miss a lot too, probably a lot more connections could be made with more attention to detail. I almost don't dare to predict, I'm usually wrong about it. ;) One possibility I could imagine is that because both fighters died it's a tie and he has not to be sentenced to death. But I think it's unlikely, Tywin would have known i there was such a regulation. I don't think taht the finale needs a big character death, last season the Red Wedding was episode 9 too, not 10. But of course Tyrion's death would open new ways for the Sansa story. Right now I don't think she even could marry either her cousin or Baelish because she is already married. I don't think killing Cersei would add to the story - it would offer more possibilities if she lives and has to marry this Tyrell guy. Jamie dying while saving Tyrion on the other hand would be interesting. You are right about the dagger, somebody pointed this out elsewhere too. I don't think it's personal against Tyrion. Baelish is a ruthless power politician who does everything that serves himself. It least I can't really see any pattern: Jon Arryn was about to find out that Joffrey and his siblings have no right to the throne - would have been a disaster for the Lannisters, so he killed Arren. Also he supported Cersei against Ned Stark when he found out the same, and he was killed. Which would make Baelish a Lannister-agent. On the other hand he killed Joffrey and also with his comment on the dagger was willing to sacrifice Tyrion, not very pro-Lannister. (I do think though that Tyrian at some point admits that it was indeed his dagger, but he had lost it, or it was stolen. I'd have to re-watch.) So again the conclusion Baelish serves Baelish. Weakening everone, makes him stronger. And there might be ties and family-background we do not know yet. So I agree, I do not like him either. His cunning and ruthlessness is frightening. But he's definitely acting well and good for the story, one never knows what he will do next and why.

Great that we're one person more in this thread. ;) And I have to say, so far I have not seen any spoilers in these threads in season 4. I also thought that she would save him. When they met I also thought for a moment that she would indeed kill him. Although, I had hoped there would be a happy end for the two of them. But, once again, no such thing in this show. I really liked the Ygritt-character and their story. Oh well. I doubt that most think that. The wall has, so far, been less exciting than other stories, I agree. But it's obvious that this is where the fate of Westeros will be decided. King's Landing, Iron Islands, The Vale, Winterfell - that's thrilling but basically just bloody feuds. In contrast, the events up north are going to be historic once the white walkers arrive in masses. (Such as Danaeris with her dragons will bring a historic component into the story on another end.) But I expect it will take a while until the south acknowledges this danger, I doubt there will be coming any considerable help yet. I'm very very curious about the season finale. I disliked Tyrion at the very beginning, but he has grown on to me a lot, I hope he can escape or some other way be saved. I think his character is one of the most round one, him being gone would seem quite a loss to the show.

I have not read any books, so I am not sure how much I can assess the world. But from what I have watched I agree. Arya's behaviour was visibly imprudent, impolite in this surrounding; there would have certainly been an acceptable middle way. Sansa's silence as said I did not perceive as cowardice but calculation. (The readers probably know. ;))

As far as I remember there was an inquiry on what had happened and Arya screamed against Joffrey that he is a liar and implored Sansa to tell the truth - but she didn't. So I do hold that she put Joffrey over truth. I would have to re-watch the episode to assess whether she could have known that Mycah was in danger or not. But even if she had not suspected that the wolf would be killed, at the latest when they announced it, she could have shouted: "Stop. I will tell you what really happened."

I agree with Ormurin. It would be an interesting change if Baelish was defeated by his feelings (kissing her was definitely not so smart) but from what we've seen so far that would be quite a change of character. No, not the whole time. Initially she was not Joffrey's victim, she wanted to be his queen. And she wanted it so badly that she sacrificed that boy at the river who hit Joffrey in a fight, instead of saving him by telling the truth. Sacrificed the Direwolf, still kept her mouth shut. In that I think we could already see that when she really wants something she can be reckless.

Thanks for explaining. You're right, makes sense. Although generally I don't see, how this should change their plans. Yes the aunt's dead but that still means that she's got her cousin in the vale and shouldn't make it less safe for her. And if you apply traditional nobility values her cousin would still reward the hound. But I'm sure there'll be an event why that won't happen.

Wow. I certainly did not expect that. Good that I did not bet on the outcome of the fight. Too bad we've already lost Oberyn again. But surely somebody must save Tyrion... I like where they're going with Sansa's story, that's going to be interesting. Bride to be to the king of the Vale who's being educated by his stepfather who happens to have a thing for his niece / daughter in law. Can somebody (no spoilers) explain to me how you interpreted Arya's laughter?

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I agree with you on that but don't really see this as a contradiction to what I said. :)

I just thought about this. Hey, we saw the Red Lady being in the Vale. How about she being blamed for it, wouldn't that work perfectly?

Exactly. Isn't that why they are called spoilers, because they spoil the fun? Why would I want some comments on what will happen? If I really wanna know, I'd read the books and get the full experience. I may do that once this season is over, to get over the break. But I agree with you it's sad how little traffic is in the non spoiler threads. I guess the people who really care are readers while most watchers don't bother about forums? Well, one has to consider that Sansa probably is not so happy about the thought of marrying her cousin, who's still a child and the way he talked about him being the importand "Lord of the Vale" and throwing people out of the moondoor should make it obvious to her that he's a naive, if not crazy, child. Sansa was nice to him, and even after he breaks the tower she at first just calmly says, "You ruined it, now I have to build it again." Then it goes out of hand, true. Also at the very start of the scene when you see her building the castle, "The North Remembers" is played, which indicates that Sansa is quite emotional about her slaughtered family and burnt down home. So she may have overreacted but I find it understandable. I think the day we can be sure about Littlefinger's longterm plans, is the day the show is boring. ;) In this case I have not a clue yet whether this was a plan or maybe for the first time ever an impulsive reaction but I doubt the latter. Maybe it is connected to the plan of Walder Frey (or is it Roose Bolton?) to take over the Eyrie? Would also be in the interest of the Lannisters to take down the last possible shelter for Stark kids. That Baelish has in mind to marry Sansa would make sense both on the emotional level as well as on the power level (making him ruler of Winterfell). His plan of course would have to include that Tyrion gets executed thus making her available again. And I doubt Sansa would go for this marriage. Firstly I think she must have some respect (if not affection) for Tyrion after the way he treated her. Secondly she has experienced Baelish since her arrival in Kingslanding (he could have saved her father and didn't) so I'm sure she's aware of how dangerous and untrustworthy he is. I have to agree, especially from a storyline point of view. One had to think Tyrion stands no chance, now he suddenly has one. (I wanna see Cersei's face when she learns!) And Tyrion has been built up as a character from the first episode onwards, they have nicely started to build up Oberyn in this season, it would be weird to both kill them off in return for this insignificant butcher. But then, so many characters have already been killed off without fewer warning...

See and I'm considering starting to read. Because once this season is done I'm not sure I can wait all the time until the next season. ;) I agree the fight will be Mountain vs Oberyn for reasons that have already been mentioned. But I can not see Cersei choosing Jamie. He only has his left hand, and apart from Tyrion and Bronn nobody knows he's even practising with it, therefore she would have to think he'd lose. Choosing Jamie thus would mean for Cersei to lose her one brother (and father of the king) and at the same time have Tyrion going free. She's evil not dumb. I know we're now all waiting for this fight but that's a little bit of an exaggeration. We have Arya, Brann, Jon, possibly the wildlings, the Vale - you could fill an episode with them, without Kings Landing, without Denaerys. . I agree with that. Picking the best warriors, entering the castle no problem and then fleeing from the dogs? Not portrayed so well I think. I actually thought that this short piece of her story were nicely done. In all the last episodes she always was the shining queen, idealistic liberator, everything was so easily divided between poor slaves and evil master, seemed you could just rush from city to city. Now she's realising that it's not black and white, and also that the day to day business of ruling is exhausting, difficult and tiresome. That only Mereen was shown doesn't matter, it is an example how it is one the one city, so considering she has to rule more cities it means her task is even more difficult.

I am very curious about the Arya storyline, which, I agree must lead to Braavos. And she most likely will become an assassin. I assume we should see some drama when she starts taking people off her list. Arya will have stayed a while in Braavos and not be aware of all the internal developments in Kings Landing etc.; it seems likely she might kill someone out of her old hatred who in the meantime has changed sides (say for example she kills Sercei who in the meantime got married to Jon Snow, not that I think it's going to happen, but just as an example). But I also assume there will be some turns until she even gets to Braavos. The Hound wants to bring her to the Vale, right? Where Lord Baelish is at the moment, and if he could he'd hand her over to whomever serves him best. Also if I remember correctly the Freys plan to conquer the Vale, so they may meet somewhere on the way to there.