sweetsunray

Roose Bolton does not seem to apply this type of execution at Harrenhal, though people are indeed executed and lose their feet. At the time House Bolton joined their liege House Stark, the skinning of people was a historical practice, that is, until Ramsay gains power and starts doing it. I fail to see what this line of inquiry would produce with regards the discussion we have about Dany burning the Tarlies is bad PR for her if she wants to win houses over to believe in her as being a "just" ruler. If it is to question what I think of Roose and Ramsay Bolton? Roose is smarter than Ramsay in not doing horrible stuff openly, but both are despicable and barbaric. But nobody of the current living Starks knows this about House Bolton until they come into power. So?

I can derive its meaning based on the various times she used it. One leader and breaking the power of the great houses: that is the enlightened despot model, not feudal society. A feudal society does NOT have one ruler who can ignore his lords. It's not imposing what I think it should mean, it's how feudal society and enlightened despotism is defined by historians. And yet, it does make Dany a hypocrite, since her actions and what she's after do not make her more "just" than anyone else before.

I seem to remember Davos and Gendry being stuck in a cell at Dragonstone. So, Dany does have a prison. Allowing Jaime to keep his head wasn't necessarily disastrous, but freeing him was. As for Balon Greyjoy. He stayed low and didn't do a thing, not until Robert was dead, Robb had gone South and sent Theon to Pyke.

As long as she keeps the feudal system, she is only one of the spokes of the wheel on top of it. That was what Tyrion pointed out to her when she came up with that "term". That's when she stated she was going to break the wheel. And she cannot break the wheel without dong away with the feudal society and make it an empire as several kings did in England, France and Spain as Machiavelli proposed.

I personally reject execution and find it barbaric, but I do recognize that it's a country's prerogative to perform it or not. And next we can see how people are being executed. The manner in which it happens says a lot about that person on the barbaric scale.

She can't make Randyl take the vows, as that is of his own choice, regardless. Imprisonment was imo the most prudent choice by Dany, if she wants to win the hearts of lords.

It's not irrelevant. It shows Dany had no plan whatsoever what to do with POW before she even went into the battle. She claims to be a more just ruler, but decides stuff as she goes along, without thinking ahead, pretty much as she did in Mereen. Remind me why Mereen was such a disaster and Dany hasn't learned much of it. IIRC she was going to be a just ruler in Mereen and execute a freed slave, only to make people turn against her even more.

Even Tywin allowed his captives of the Battle of the Blackwater some days to ponder it before the reward-victory ceremony in the Red Keep where they all were given the choice - swezar loyalty to Joffrey or die.

Tarly didn't kill his own is my point And Olenna should have taken Tarly to meet with Dany if she had been smart. Making a military decision without checking whether the guy who should lead it and provides the biggest levies is not smart.

Tarly's army is the major bulk of the Tyrell army

Not every prisoner is a lord or a son of a lord. Robb had his nursing-lover treat common enemy soldiers medically treat them without requiring to bend the knee for him. Nor did he ever ask something like it of Jaime. If the kid lord of Darry had refused to join Robb Stark, he wouldn't have killed him, just locked him up. It's quite clear that Westeros knows there's a difference between killing people in battle and killing people who surrendered their arms to you and are your captives. They don't need a geneva convention or a term such as POW to know they are effectively prisoners begotten through warfare, people who battled against you, but were eitehr disarmed or surrendered.

Yeah... For the Tarlys it was a choice between cholera or the plague. Dany claiming she's more just than the other and then burn them for not taking her on her word made her words of being more just void.

They do know there's a big difference between killing people on the battle field and the peope who surrendered and were captured. Robb treated his POW according to Geneve Conventions pretty much, so they do have a concept of POW.

Agreed. Dany's dilemma is converging this idea of herself as the hero and saviour of slaves and the idea of a (rightful) totalitarian queen who has to kill non-slavers and convince non-enslaved to empower her and get another totalitarian queen of a throne.

As viewer I cannot forget she used that break the wheel comment where she compares every house as being a spoke of the wheel and then this one is on top and then that one is on top, then her reference to it once again during the meeting with Olenna and the Dornish snakes and Varys. Cersei Lannister isn't a wheel, she's a spoke on the wheel, as is Dany. But I'll give you that Dany's break-the-wheel speech is even more nonsensical the way she delivered it to her POW than during the other occasions. More "just"... So, it's either "blow up with a sept" or "die-by-dragonfire"... how's that more just? It ain't. She's delivering the same type of justice as the Lannisters have done since they gained political power over the throne.

Yup this. So, basically I have issues with show-Dany's PR. Aside from that, if I were to be free to elect a monarch who's the most humane, I'd still argue that of all the kings and queens we've seen in the show so far Robb and Jon are the best rulers, though they're daft at times.

And for Tyrion to believe she would send Lannister soldiers. After all Tyrion believes she's a loving mother. Except she isn't, because she shrugged at Tommen jumping out of the window after she blew up the woman he lurved, and called Tommen a traitor.

Agreed. D&D manufactured a hamfisted situation.

And to make things very clear... I just think that Dany should stop touting she's going to change the system and be this over-the-rainbow-you-find-unicorns queen. Westeros is not a democracy nor a republic, nor is she vying to be a constitutional monarch of a democracy with a parliament. It is a feudal society and she's vying to be a totalitarian queen over them. In other words she's trying to be what several kings were during the 16th century. For that she needs to have a personal army loyal to her, and not just be dependent on the levies of the lords. And she has. And she will need to be ruthless to anyone opposing her. Everything else is lying to herself.

1) Not quicker than beheading, since the brains need to be deprived of oxygen just as long 2) The skin is the biggest organ with the most intricate nerve system, which is what is targeted. But hey, I guess death-by-oven is the most humane form of execution, which is why it's being touted and practiced as such in those present countries who still perform executions. And I reject that line of argument, because when Dany refers to "breaking-the-wheel" she very much means she wants to change the political power system. She does not change that power system whatsoever by the choices she gave her POW. The only two who actually were doing it differently, never even claimed they were going to break the feudal system - Jon by not demanding it of wildlings and Robb by treating his POW per the Geneva conventions. So, supporting Cersei and disloyalty to a liege lord deserves torturous death? Nice morals you have. I guess our discussion is over.

Because Dany herself never even thought of offering that choice. Tyrion mentioned it, and before Dany could even think to formalize that option as an option, Randyll made clear it wouldn't be. So, no, Dany never gave that as third option choice. And when Randyl initially refused to bend the knee, even fore Tyrion opened his mouth abou the NW, Dany's sole alternative was death-by-dragonfire in her own mind. So, spare me the argument of the NW being a third option, when Dany had never even considered it as an option. And given the fact that she's so against imprisonment and chains because she can only associate that with enslavement right after, when Tyrion argues for her to put Dickon in a cell, I doubt that she would consider NW duty as anything else than another form of enslavement.

Well, I am pretty sure that the POW of the wars between kingdoms before Aegon the Conquerer's unification plenty still had a choice to die instead of going to the NW. The NW gets undermanned indeed because of the Targaryens' actions and choices (the shiny KG, using it as penal colony, etc). The past was not so much about rival kings and queens for the same throne, as it were kings and queens of a neighbouring kingdom trying to conquer them. Having several claimants to the same throne from several houses is a fairly new development and typical for having just one throne.

Tyrion did, but Dany didn't. She never even considered it. She was as surprised as Tyrion when he brought it up. You could almost see her thinking, "Oh, I had forgotten all about the NW." Randyll refused on account of not recognizing her as his legal queen. Tyrion also still argued that she could put them in prison. But she doesn't want to put men in chains. She doesn't even get the concept of prison much. Thinks somehow that executing people is more humane than putting them in a cell.

She gives the classical choice: bend the knee or die. OMG, don't you get what she did to those men who had surrendered their arms to her? She gives this whole over-the-rainbow-speech to them, making herself out to be better and different than all the other kings and queens before her, and because not everybody buys it, she burns them right in front of those men she promised to be different. What do you think went through the minds of those men who bent the knee? "See, there we have a saviour!" or "Same old, same old."

I don't disagree with that reasoning from a strategic POV. But it still makes Dany a hypocrite in light of the speech she gives 5 mins prior to him and his men. And maybe that was Randyl's point? "Oh, look, here's one who claims she should be queen, because she's a better person than the Lannisters, and will stop being a tyrant. Look what this woman will do, when I don't bend the knee? See, she's just like all the others before her." And sure, they all bent the knee after that, but it sure as hell was not because they believed she would be a great ruler. They did it, because they didn't want to die-by-dragonfire.