Tyrells have everything..... why? And till when?

[Winnief]

The siege of Dragonstone was a very pivotal point, because it showed that the gallant Ser Loras while brilliant in tourney's didn't know how to fight a real battle.

His attack was bold all right, and no one could fault his courage, but it left him nearly killed, maimed for life, and a thousand of his own men dead.

Then there's Mace...

Tyrell's reputation rested on once indecisive victory over Robert Baratheon at Ashford, in a battle largely won by Lord Tarly's van before the main host had even arrived. The siege of Storm's End, where Mace Tyrell actually did hold the command, had dragged on a year to no result, and after the Trident was fought, the Lord of Highgarden had meekly dipped his banners to Eddard Stark.

So the Tyrell's have the troops but whether they can use them properly in the battles to come against the IB and GC, is another question altogether.

As Tyrion noted, Mace has a prodigious appetite and Kevan reflects that the more he gives Mace the more he wants...and ultimately the fact that he got greedy is what's going to be his fatal flaw that dooms him.

[Wmarshal]

The problem is they made their bed with the crown and there is no way to back out of that now.

I don't think this is true, they are to powerful a house to make an enemy of, if Mace or Marg is captured they would likely be let go for loyalty, honestly they can only be hurt if Cesrei does something stupid.

[Wmarshal]

The siege of Dragonstone was a very pivotal point, because it showed that the gallant Ser Loras while brilliant in tourney's didn't know how to fight a real battle.

His attack was bold all right, and no one could fault his courage, but it left him nearly killed, maimed for life, and a thousand of his own men dead.

Then there's Mace...

Tyrell's reputation rested on once indecisive victory over Robert Baratheon at Ashford, in a battle largely won by Lord Tarly's van before the main host had even arrived. The siege of Storm's End, where Mace Tyrell actually did hold the command, had dragged on a year to no result, and after the Trident was fought, the Lord of Highgarden had meekly dipped his banners to Eddard Stark.

So the Tyrell's have the troops but whether they can use them properly in the battles to come against the IB and GC, is another question altogether.

As Tyrion noted, Mace has a prodigious appetite and Kevan reflects that the more he gives Mace the more he wants...and ultimately the fact that he got greedy is what's going to be his fatal flaw that dooms him.

What are you talking about? Loras took the place, and was only maimed by tar not a man. He was leading the assualt quickly to free the fleet and save the reach. As to commanders, Mace has to very competent sons left and legions of bannermen. Mace is greedy to power and why shouldn't he be? His forces are doing all the fighting. And the lannisters have proven to be shitty allies.

[Winnief]

I don't think this is true, they are to powerful a house to make an enemy of, if Mace or Marg is captured they would likely be let go for loyalty, honestly they can only be hurt if Cesrei does something stupid.

Ahem.

[mb2518]

The siege of Dragonstone was a very pivotal point, because it showed that the gallant Ser Loras while brilliant in tourney's didn't know how to fight a real battle.

His attack was bold all right, and no one could fault his courage, but it left him nearly killed, maimed for life, and a thousand of his own men dead.

Then there's Mace...

Tyrell's reputation rested on once indecisive victory over Robert Baratheon at Ashford, in a battle largely won by Lord Tarly's van before the main host had even arrived. The siege of Storm's End, where Mace Tyrell actually did hold the command, had dragged on a year to no result, and after the Trident was fought, the Lord of Highgarden had meekly dipped his banners to Eddard Stark.

So the Tyrell's have the troops but whether they can use them properly in the battles to come against the IB and GC, is another question altogether.

As Tyrion noted, Mace has a prodigious appetite and Kevan reflects that the more he gives Mace the more he wants...and ultimately the fact that he got greedy is what's going to be his fatal flaw that dooms him.

Depends on whether or not you think Loras was actually hurt at Dragonstone.

[Winnief]

Depends on whether or not you think Loras was actually hurt at Dragonstone.

Ok, point taken on that one. But I'm still pretty doubtful about Mace's abilities in battle for if/when Tyrell/Lannister fighting breaks out in KL, I don't see Mace surviving.

[Wmarshal]

Ok, point taken on that one. But I'm still pretty doubtful about Mace's abilities in battle for if/when Tyrell/Lannister fighting breaks out in KL, I don't see Mace surviving.

The tyrells outnumber them, the gold cloaks is in Mace's pocket, and the city is with the Tyrells, Cersei can't match his power.

[Winnief]

The tyrells outnumber them, the gold cloaks is in Mace's pocket, and the city is with the Tyrells, Cersei can't match his power.

Cersei can't...the Faith Militant may be another matter, and the Seven only know how many gold cloaks and other forces, Varys has in his pocket...

[Wmarshal]

Cersei can't...the Faith Militant may be another matter, and the Seven only know how many gold cloaks and other forces, Varys has in his pocket...

The has no beef with the Tyrells and Varys needs Mace and Marg alive to turn the reach.

[Winnief]

The has no beef with the Tyrells and Varys needs Mace and Marg alive to turn the reach.

If Margaery is convicted, (and I have a sinking feeling she will be,) then it *will* be open warfare between the Tyrell's and the Faith.

As for the question of whether Varys needs the Tyrell's to secure the Reach-I suspect he doesn't. I think there are some very powerful families in the Reach, (like the Hightowers, the Rowans, the Tarly's etc.) with Targaryen sympathies for Varys, fAegon, and the GC to work with instead. Hell, it sounds like certain alliances may already be in place...which is yet another problem for the Tyrell's.

[horizon]

I found it pretty funny that in the end a House which operated on the background got so high.

But yes, doom is upon them.

[gamegeknee]

Maybe I'll break it down more later, but you could say the same think about the Stark family at the beginning of GoT.

They were set up to rule the north for a long time. Bran and Rickon could have their own holds and families in the north. Arya and Sansa could have been married off to lords in the north or riverlands to secure alliances. Jon would probably go to the wall either way, but it's still quite honorable for Ned's bastard to be Lord Commander of the Nights watch.

Really the only flaw I see with the Stark family at the beginning of GoT is the rift between Cat and Jon, and all things considered it wasn't even that big a deal.

The Tyrell's have it coming though, every other major family has seen some form of devastation.

[horizon]

The downfall of the Starks was imo two-fold:

Eddard not being the right person to play the game of thrones

Catlyn making a lot of crap decisions

[Lord Damian]

The OP sets the table for a sudden and dramatic fall. Everyone seems to have undergone such and it is well past their time to receive theirs. It is comming.

The Trial

The Iron Born

Dornish invasion

Aegon VI

Turncloak lords?

Oh Yes, it is comming. Soon Heh, Heh

[Wmarshal]

If Margaery is convicted, (and I have a sinking feeling she will be,) then it *will* be open warfare between the Tyrell's and the Faith.

As for the question of whether Varys needs the Tyrell's to secure the Reach-I suspect he doesn't. I think there are some very powerful families in the Reach, (like the Hightowers, the Rowans, the Tarly's etc.) with Targaryen sympathies for Varys, fAegon, and the GC to work with instead. Hell, it sounds like certain alliances may already be in place...which is yet another problem for the Tyrell's.

Cersei did such a horrible job with faking the evidence there is no way one earth HS is going to buy half the BS. As to Aegon needing them, yeah he does. Mace is hightowers good son and his kid are hightowers grand kids, likely his first. You can't find a Mace relative who isn't married to one of the powers in the reach, and I have a saying, why have a basket of peaches when you can have a tree? Capture Mace and the whole of the reach is Aegon's.

[TheWanderer]

As to Aegon needing them, yeah he does. Mace is hightowers good son and his kid are hightowers grand kids, likely his first. You can't find a Mace relative who isn't married to one of the powers in the reach, and I have a saying, why have a basket of peaches when you can have a tree? Capture Mace and the whole of the reach is Aegon's.

Mace's control over the Reach is questionable at best. What isn't questionable is his alliance to the Lannisters, Mace has firmly hitched his families fortunes to theirs. Mace has chosen to ride a lion, I don't see the dragon being too happy about that. The Reach in general has lots of sympathies towards the Targaryean cause and many lords just as powerful as Mace is personally. Aegon can have the tree, doesn't mean he needs the orchard-keeper.

[Wmarshal]

Mace's control over the Reach is questionable at best. What isn't questionable is his alliance to the Lannisters, Mace has firmly hitched his families fortunes to theirs. Mace has chosen to ride a lion, I don't see the dragon being too happy about that. The Reach in general has lots of sympathies towards the Targaryean cause and many lords just as powerful as Mace is personally. Aegon can have the tree, doesn't mean he needs the orchard-keeper.

Aegon is not a man of grudges, the only thing on Mace's transcript is taking royal craps on Stannis, no harm on the Targs. Mace's connections with reach men would divid the kingdom, capture Mace and show misery and the whole army of the reach is on Aegon's back.

[TheBadboy]

Maybe I'll break it down more later, but you could say the same think about the Stark family at the beginning of GoT.

They were set up to rule the north for a long time. Bran and Rickon could have their own holds and families in the north. Arya and Sansa could have been married off to lords in the north or riverlands to secure alliances. Jon would probably go to the wall either way, but it's still quite honorable for Ned's bastard to be Lord Commander of the Nights watch.

Really the only flaw I see with the Stark family at the beginning of GoT is the rift between Cat and Jon, and all things considered it wasn't even that big a deal.

The Tyrell's have it coming though, every other major family has seen some form of devastation.

So NOT true.

Let me lay down facts,

At beginning of GoT

Wealth - Tyrells >>> Starks

Food - T >>>> S

Offsprings...

Marg >> Sansa ( she was never trained to play games and survive like Marg)

Loras and Garlan are much better warriors than Robb and Jon.

Cat secures Riverrun support, while Alerie Hightower secures Hightower.

But Ofcourse Ned >>>>> Mace.

And no Ollena

Armies - I would say equal at best

Unity among family. Tyrells > Starks

And even before GoT, Starks had suffered huge losses [Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard ]

But Tyrells had got an easy pass from Martin!

Tyrells are the closest thing to an IDEALISTIC family in Westros. And Martin has always been very easy on them

( Even if shit goes down, they survived relatively unharmed for so long!!!!! RR, 5 books of Asoiaf, without a single death? givemme a break lol)

[TheBadboy]

If Margaery is convicted, (and I have a sinking feeling she will be,) then it *will* be open warfare between the Tyrell's and the Faith.

As for the question of whether Varys needs the Tyrell's to secure the Reach-I suspect he doesn't. I think there are some very powerful families in the Reach, (like the Hightowers, the Rowans, the Tarly's etc.) with Targaryen sympathies for Varys, fAegon, and the GC to work with instead. Hell, it sounds like certain alliances may already be in place...which is yet another problem for the Tyrell's.

I still don't get why people think if Aegon and Dany land, Tyrells are doomed!

Tyrells were the only great family in Westros that supported Targaryeans till the very very end!

And once the Targaryeans were gone what were they supposed to do? Surely Dany and Aegon are not that blind or stupid to see that, in fact they are the one family that may get an easy pass from Dany's wrath or Aegon's uprising!

Because they were always Targaryen loyalists!

And Tyrells don't know about Aegon's existence and nor do they see Dany landing in Westros any time soon! And if either of the two do come close to IT, I can only see Tyrells bending their knees! And again being pardoned royally For their loyalty towards the Targaryeans till the end. There is no hope for Lannisters! But Tyrells were always in Targaryen good books!!!

Oldtown is under Ironborn attack.. Well too bad, I don't see why Ironborn Want to takeover a town so far from sea, except there is something in citadel that Euron wants. Attack there is of no consequence to the actual war. Why would they be interested so far from home?

Aegon lands, defeats lannisters, Tyrells bend their knees! That is Tyrell style!

In RR they rode a dragon which lost, it's the same situation again, accept it's a lion this time, and the supposed enemies of lions (dragons) had good relationship with the roses!

The only problem is when Stannis wins the throne, and that I don't see happening :)

And lastly.... Reach is for Tyrells! I don't see why Aegon or Dany will hand it over to Any other house!!! What have the Tyrells done against them compared to every other single house in Westros! Nothing!!!

And in house Florent is the one that is on the wrong side and they don't even have a heir!!!!!

It seems like a reader's wish to see Tyrells downfall as some sort of poetic justice...

( but yes, Marg may lose her head as a typical Martin plot twist)

[Aegon the Great]

They will get shrekt.