moonsinging and lunar manipulation.

[Waters Gate]

This is a theory of mine and there are a number of further considerations attached to it, but first ill come to the theory right away:

In this theory, the moonsingers have learned to do some effective lunar manupulation. That is they can manipulate the position of the moon "to some extend".

consider this line from the books

"Tyrion has never seen a bigger moon than the one he sees aboard the Selaesori Qhoran when the ship is sailing too close to Valyria. Monstrous and swollen, it looks as if it has swallowed the sun and woken with a fever."

Why does observant Tyrion, who has observed the moon in a normal state in the books before, oberve with all his intellect a larger moon over valyria?

That is weird and sounds somewhat significant. A larger moon implies maybe the existance of another larger moon than the one known, or the moon is closer to the eart at this location maybe?

However in my theory there is an explination for this. there might be a second moon, but in either case this particular moon is "sung into place here" by moonsingers. This is done so that the moon would exact a gravitational pull. While the gravitational pull of a moon on earth would usually not have to much effect asside from some tidal effects, a moon that comes to close to a planet could effectivly rip open an earths crust by it's gravitational pull. By normal physics it could also apply that that moon would fall upon that planet by such hughe gravitational pull, but in the asoiaf world we might consider that it's magic. And here the moonsingers have done this to cause the doom. Anotehr effect of this moon so nearby is that the tidal effects are hughe, which is noticable around valyria.

Furthermore: the moonsingers have learned this skill i think in Westeros, i would guess from the children of the forrest.

We know that the Children of the forrest shattered the arme of Dorne by magic. Thats some seriosu magic there, potent enough to create a doom in valyria aswell, as the valyrian doom came down to their lands shattering under them aswell.

We don't know how the children of the forrest did this awesome feat of landdestruction. But maybe they used lunar manuipulation for it. Certainly if you can manipulate a moon into a specific position for a while you could do some serious destruction with those gravitational forces. Although it seems that this power was not easy for the children of the forresqt to control neither.

Furthermore: who knows you might even manipulate a moons position so it create's an extended solar eclipse. This would be something that could create a long night and a winter for generations.

In the story of the forging of lightbringer, we lean that upon it's creation Nissa Nissa's cry of extasy left a "crack on the face of the moon".

[Waters Gate]

People need to read this stuff, because i think it's really important!

i will add:

"Qartheen believe that dragons were hatched from a second moon that came too close to the sun and cracked"

What happened was this. just like the moonsingers could do lunar manipulation to place a moon above valyria to create the doom, which they learned from the Cotf, so could the cotf besides using creatign havoc on the ground with this trigger a long night, simply by positioning a moon before the sun and blocking it that way.

What happened though was that someone, azor ahai as it is said, grew fed up with this, and what he did was he used r'hllor, the god of fire and light who's avatar is the sun, to pull in this cold, dark and death darkened moon, the avater of the great others aspects. And with that destruction rhllor created the dragons, which probably came to this world by meteors.

This event was perceived differently in Qarth though, who by their distance might not have been affected by the solar eclipse or saw the thing from a different angle/perspective than the people in westeros. It also seems that dragons came into the world not long after the first long night.

[Hangover of the Morning]

I would suggest to let the acid wear off before posting on this forum :smoking:

[Rhaegars Heir]

gravity does work the way you think a moons gravitational pull can pull up a larger planets crust up or anything lagers for that matter it would be pulled down to said object first, and more than likely the moon appears so big because Tyrion is on the other side of the world and during that time of year or part of the century the moon is closer and spears bigger

[Rhaegars Heir]

I would suggest to let the acid wear off before posting on this forum :smoking:

or learning how physics works

[Waters Gate]

gravity does work the way you think a moons gravitational pull can pull up a larger planets crust up or anything lagers for that matter it would be pulled down to said object first

Unless it wxas prevented from falling upon the planet by magic, rather locked in place to exact its own gravitational pull withought needing to care for the gravitational pull of the planet it's over because the moonsingers are keeping it there.

and more than likely the moon appears so big because Tyrion is on the other side of the world and during that time of year or part of the century the moon is closer and spears bigger

"A full moon floats above the mast of the Shy Maid, Tyrion thinks it is following him downriver, like some great eye."

This is an instance not so much earlier in the books where tyrion observe's the moon in its rather more normal form, not so far from valyria neither. Afaik in Volantis he observe's that same moon when the priests of r'hllor make suggestions towards it during their preachings.

The change in fact was rather sudden, not much further from volantis he suddently spots a hughe moon, far larger apparently as any he ever seen.

or learning how physics works

I know in normal circumastances the moon would be pulled towards the planet rather, but consider it's magic that its locked into place over an area and can exact its gravitational pull there on the planet by the magic powers of said moonsingers, althoguh it might be hard for them to control for a long time and need to reposition their magnet when their own power to keep it in place is growing weaker.

[Rhaegars Heir]

Unless it wxas prevented from falling upon the planet by magic, rather locked in place to exact its own gravitational pull withought needing to care for the gravitational pull of the planet it's over because the moonsingers are keeping it there.

I know in normal circumastances the moon would be pulled towards the planet rather, but consider it's magic that its locked into place over an area and can exact its gravitational pull there on the planet by the magic powers of said moonsingers, althoguh it might be hard for them to control for a long time and need to reposition their magnet when their own power to keep it in place is growing weaker.

gravity from a moon isn't sting enough to pull a planets crush up with out pulling the planet up with it and if you say they use magic to keep the planet in place then I'll say that in that case the crust wouldn't move either and more importantly I've already explain a much simpler and more plausible explanation to tou

[Waters Gate]

the valyrian freehold was full of volcano's and might have been an area with seismic activity. And surely a hughe magnet can have affect on a crust if its full of ore like the stuff valyrian steel is made of. Asside of that, it would have pulled the sea up, giving the impression that valyria "sunk", but actually raising the ocean over it with that gravitational pull.

[Rhaegars Heir]

the valyrian freehold was full of volcano's and might have been an area with seismic activity. And surely a hughe magnet can have affect on a crust if its full of ore like the stuff valyrian steel is made of. Asside of that, it would have pulled the sea up, giving the impression that valyria "sunk", but actually raising the ocean over it with that gravitational pull.

as I said before gravity doesn't work that way an entire planet would come up before just it's crust would

[The Kinkslayer]

Planetos needs none of that fancy sciency stuff when wizards can just do things.

That being said, it was just an optical effect, Tyrion may be a bookworm, but he is no scientist.

[Rhaegars Heir]

Planetos needs none of that fancy sciency stuff when wizards can just do things.

That being said, it was just an optical effect, Tyrion may be a bookworm, but he is no scientist.

finally someone who hasn't been drinking bong water

[Waters Gate]

as I said before gravity doesn't work that way an entire planet would come up before just it's crust would

What if the upper crust is full of ore?

And asside of that, what about the effect on the sea around vallyria. Wouldn't it raise the sea up maybe hundreds of meters, to the point that it would appear that vallyria is sinking into the sea?

The sea around valyria is acting strangely right? Seems like a moon could be reason for that.

That being said, it was just an optical effect, Tyrion may be a bookworm, but he is no scientist.

And what would be indication for that? You make the claim that it's an optical illusion, but do you have anything to support to go above occam's Razor which would state that what Tyrion sees is effectivly a "far larger moon"?

finally someone who hasn't been drinking bong water

Why these character assasination comments? It's just a theory on a forum for where peopel share theory's. I don't drink bong water ok?

[Rhaegars Heir]

What if the upper crust is full of ore?

And asside of that, what about the effect on the sea around vallyria. Wouldn't it raise the sea up maybe hundreds of meters, to the point that it would appear that vallyria is sinking into the sea?

The sea around valyria is acting strangely right? Seems like a moon could be reason for that.

And what would be indication for that? You make the claim that it's an optical illusion, but do you have anything to support to go above occam's Razor which would state that what Tyrion sees is effectivly a "far larger moon"?

Why these character assasination comments? It's just a theory on a forum for where peopel share theory's. I don't drink bong water ok?

the sea level would drop down once the gravity stopped pulling which would happen during the moons orbit. two we understand how the moon works in relation to it's appearance here on earth during orbit which perfectly explains why the moon seemed so big to Tyrion and 3 as far as valaryia goes the sea didn't swallow it it's still very much there. lastly we keep assassinating your character because your worse then Ray comfort being explained evolution and still spout nonsense which isn't fair of me to say but if the show fits

[Waters Gate]

the sea level would drop down once the gravity stopped pulling which would happen during the moons orbit.

Unless the moon remained locked in place over the valyrian freehold.

two we understand how the moon works in relation to it's appearance here on earth during orbit which perfectly explains why the moon seemed so big to Tyrion

You mean moon illusion, the fact that it appears larger at the horizon than up in the sky? but Tyrion might have been used to that effect anyway, and he describe's the moon as monstrous and swollen but not where he sees it, if its at the horizon or in the sky, and for him its a noteworthy moon, while a larger moon at the horizon might have been nothing noteworthy to him as it would be to us.

and 3 as far as valaryia goes the sea didn't swallow it it's still very much there

Actually what apears to have happened is what would logicly be the effect of a raised see, in that the landmass broke down into islands, which might just aswell be a result of the lower lying area's of valyria appearing still above the water table while the rest is submerged creating inland seas.

And plz reconsider.

- We have gotten clear hints that the moonsingers of braavos were responsible for the doom of valyria

- We see a monsterous moon over Valyria, as described by tyrion who has observed the moon in the book before in a normal form

- We see a wild sea, a logical affect of the gravitational pull of a nearby moon, maybe since the sea is so much mroe wild here, that is because the moon is much closer to the earth here?

[Locavera]

I think everyone is missing, or at the least not pointing out, the biggest flaw in this theory.

COULD it have been done is not as important as WOULD it have gone unnoticed. Hypothetically speaking, if the Valyrians had, in fact, caused their doom by a.) pulling a moon down and locking it in place, or b.) creating a new moon and locking it in place, the presence of such a large astronomical body hovering over the ruins of the freehold would be something noticed by passing ships and documented. Tyrion is reflecting on the apparent size of the moon, not commenting on the existence of an artificial magical moon.

[Waters Gate]

COULD it have been done is not as important as WOULD it have gone unnoticed. Hypothetically speaking, if the Valyrians had, in fact, caused their doom by a.) pulling a moon down and locking it in place, or b.) creating a new moon and locking it in place, the presence of such a large astronomical body hovering over the ruins of the freehold would be something noticed by passing ships and documented. Tyrion is reflecting on the apparent size of the moon, not commenting on the existence of an artificial magical moon.

- in my theory it was not the valyrians who pulled at the moon but the moonsingers of braavos, unbeknown to the valyrians

- A moon is a dark thing, it emits no light, unless the sun shine's upon it, it might be unnoticable.

[Locavera]

- in my theory it was not the valyrians who pulled at the moon but the moonsingers of braavos, unbeknown to the valyrians

- A moon is a dark thing, it emits no light, unless the sun shine's upon it, it might be unnoticable.

Alright, fair enough. But you didn't actually address the flaw. I'm not willing to believe that for 400 years, nobody noticed a perpetually hovering moon was floating over the ruins of Valyria. It would have become part of the mythos surrounding the place.

It would actually make more sense to say that moonsingers created, and outright dropped a small moon or asteroid on Valyria. Creating such a moon that hovers over the land for centuries after is not an efficient use of magic if you're just trying to wipe a civilization out.

[Waters Gate]

Alright, fair enough. But you didn't actually address the flaw. I'm not willing to believe that for 400 years, nobody noticed a perpetually hovering moon was floating over the ruins of Valyria. It would have become part of the mythos surrounding the place.

A darkened moon almost seldomly noticed? Afterall when the moon is so close to the planet its unlikely that people will see light reflected from the sun on that moon from their viewpoint often. The only place it might be noticable easily is above Valyria itself where it might be creating a solar eclipse. So therefore it might be that the moon is only visible at certain moments on the day when the sun is in a specific angle at the horizon lighting the underbelly of the moon for people in the souther see to withness and even then only from specific spots/angles, but if the sun is anywhere else in the sky it might be impossble to see.

It would actually make more sense to say that moonsingers created, and outright dropped a small moon or asteroid on Valyria. Creating such a moon that hovers over the land for centuries after is not an efficient use of magic if you're just trying to wipe a civilization out.

Unless the moon is an entity itself, a god or avatar of one who the moonsingers sing to, who would not like it falling to the earth?

[Rhaegars Heir]

A darkened moon almost seldomly noticed? Afterall when the moon is so close to the planet its unlikely that people will see light reflected from the sun on that moon from their viewpoint often. The only place it might be noticable easily is above Valyria itself where it might be creating a solar eclipse. So therefore it might be that the moon is only visible at certain moments on the day when the sun is in a specific angle at the horizon lighting the underbelly of the moon for people in the souther see to withness, but if the sun is anywhere else in the sky it might be impossble to see.

Unless the moon is an entity itself, a god or avator of one who the moonsingers sing to, who would not like it falling to the earth?

you do understand that the people of planetos use the moon to mark the date meaning it moves and as far as the moon being dark goes the sun at some point would reflect light on it plain and simple

[Waters Gate]

you do understand that the people of planetos use the moon to mark the date meaning it moves

"the moon"? They use A moon. Who is to say there is only one moon? There used to be 2 atleast that the people of Planetos knew of, one fell into the sun and created the dragons. That is atleast the moons they had managed to observe, afcourse stellar objects can be hard to spot especially if they emit no light like moons.