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Hangover of the Morning

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  1. Hangover of the Morning

    How Beautiful Was Ashara Dayne?

    Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder but Ashara Dayne must have been exceptionally attractive even among the pretty highborn ladies. She's been dead for nearly two decades and yet people never fail to mention how beautiful she was when they talk about her. I'm imagining someone whom almost everyone would notice at a party and would consider above average looking if not outright stunning. She was probably classically beautiful, yet had a distinct look that set her apart, but wasn't otherworldly looking like the Targaryens. I'd hate to give some real world equivalents but maybe someone like younger Angelina Jolie, Aishwarya Rai or Scarlett Johansson. I'm sure there are people who think these women are meh or outright ugly, but it's safe to say they are a minority.
  2. Hangover of the Morning

    Best ASoIaF player

    Why is not Eddark Stark an option? He outplayed everyone by hiding an heir to the throne under everyone's nose. And all without any scheming, bribing, spying or backstabbing. Doran Martell must be a joke answer, though he certainly would win in a poll on "Who's the best at getting their family members killed?".
  3. Hangover of the Morning

    How did Rhaegar and Arthur become friends?

    That's an incredibly astute observation and definitely a possibility. It wouldn't even have to be Aerys who Papa Dayne got close to during the war but just someone influential at court.
  4. Hangover of the Morning

    How did Rhaegar and Arthur become friends?

    We never got Arthur's description, only that of his relatives (sister, nephew and distant cousin). There's absolutely nothing in the text to support the idea that Aerys banged Lady Dayne.
  5. Hangover of the Morning

    How did Rhaegar and Arthur become friends?

    Fair enough. Edric Dayne seems to be insinuating that he has all the info about Ashara from his aunt Allyria, who was only a baby at that time. Think that if there was another adult in his father's generation, he'd be likely a more reliable source of information, and thus mentioned. But yeah, the possibility that there were more Dayne siblings can't be excluded, even if I find it somewhat unlikely. Either way, they are irrelevant to the plot. It really doesn't matter, whether Arthur was 2nd or 10th born as he certainly wasn't' the heir.
  6. Hangover of the Morning

    How did Rhaegar and Arthur become friends?

    What makes you think that there was another son/s in between Edric's father and Arthur?
  7. Hangover of the Morning

    How did Rhaegar and Arthur become friends?

    Arthur's age (or looks for that matter) are never describe in the books so it must be just a fan's guess. However, I too think that he was probably more or less the same age as Rhaegar. I've written my reasoning before so just copy-pasting: It's unlikely to befriend someone more than a couple years older or younger when you are a child or a teen and since Arthur was not only Rhaegar's dearest but also oldest friend, it's safe to assume that their friendship goes way back The age of Arthur's siblings: the older brother had his first child two years after Arthur's and Ashara's deaths, while at the same time the youngest Dayne is but a wee kid when they died. Unless they had different mothers, it's unlikely that there was more than a 25 year gap between Edric's dad and Allyria. Arthur has to fall somewhere in between. Ashara and Arthur were very close by all accounts and if there was a significant age gap between them, they'd barely known each other. Ashara couldn't have been much older than Ned and Robert as she's repeatedly described as a "young maid" and "new to court" around the time of Harrenhal Tourney. Edric left Starfall to become page and later squire at the age of 8. Jaime left home when he was 11. Arthur would presumably not be an exception in this case and would have left home around that age as well. He and his sister could have bonded during their time at court but we don't know if they were even in the same place. Ashara, as one of Elia's ladies in waiting was probably on Dragonstone rather than King's Landing but we don't know about Arthur's whereabouts. I always took for granted that Arthur joined KG at a young age (around the time he turned adulthood: 17-20) but not absurdly young like Jaime (otherwise it'd be noted). Similarly, I got the impression that Prince Lewyn joined later in his life (e.g in his forties). No textual evidence, just feels right regarding what we know about their personalities. Arthur probably joined after Duskendale (277 A.D.), otherwise he'd be mentioned doing "something" at that time. So if Arthur replaced Gwayne Gaunt (who died at Duskendale) and was 20 at that time, he'd be two years older than Rhaegar. He could have also been younger and/or joined a year or two later. Either way, he'd have 5-6 in the KG plus few years as a Sword of the Morning and a celebrated tourney knight prior to that, which should be plenty of time in GRRM-verse to achieve eternal fame. Of all the celebrated knights in Aerys' Kingsguard, teenage Jaime identifies the most with Arthur. Could be because Arthur knighted him or because he was the best swordsman or because Jaime liked his personality (or looks) but could also be because he could related to him the most due to their closeness in age. The White Bull and Barry the Bold were famous throughout the realm and had much more victories under their belts compare to Dayne but no sane teenager wants to emulate someone 3-4 times their age. A guy who is already famous but only few years older than Jaime sounds like a much more reasonable role model. We don't know the age of Whent, Martell or Darry but they all had siblings in their forties so would likely be in early thirties at least. GRRM likes his heroes absurdly young when they achieve their fame (Daeron I, Jon, Robb, Jaime, Ned and Robert during RR) so why should a prodigy like Arthur be any different?
  8. Hangover of the Morning

    How did Rhaegar and Arthur become friends?

    Edric Dayne mentions that his father was Arhtur's older brother. No mention of any other male-Dayne in that generation.Therefore, Arhtur was in all likelihood the second son. I'd wager he was also second born out of the four children (since Ashara is described as quite young at Harrenhal) but we don't know that for sure.
  9. Hangover of the Morning

    How did Rhaegar and Arthur become friends?

    How does a second son from a relatively minor, albeit famous, far-away house become best friend with the crown prince? We can only speculate as there's very little to go on in the canon. We only know that Arthur was Rhaegar dearest as well as oldest friend. To me that implies that they have known each other from childhood or early teens. My guess is that the boys have squired together for the same lord (Jaime and Merrett Frey or Tywin/Aerys/Steffon scenario). Alternatively, Arhtur could have been "fostered" in King's Landing for a period of time. Rhaegar grew up as an only child (Viserys was born when he was 16) and it's not unusual to bring other noble children to the court to keep the prince company. How do you think that those two met?
  10. Hangover of the Morning

    Who do you want to get to know better in the next book?

    All Daynes, even Darkstar. The casualties of the Rebellion: Arthur, Elia, Ashara, Rhaegar, Lyanna and Brandon Sam's family Wylla Harry the Heir Tommen Baratheon fAegon Garlan Tyrell
  11. Hangover of the Morning

    Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    I agree with your post. The imaginary and dialogue very strongly indicates that the KG are protecting someone very important, i.e. a possible future king and GRRM wouldn't structure the scene in that way if he didn't want to hint at Jon's royal origins and/or his potential future claim to the IT. It's emphasised by the white cloaks (very impractical in a fight), boasting about being true to their vow and being exactly as where they should be and their reaction to Viserys' whereabouts. I have no doubt that in their minds the KG were protecting the rightful monarch and the last of Rhaegar's legacy. However, I believe that there's a discrepancy between what Rhaegar (and his men) perceived as "right" and "legal" and what the realm would should Jon's birth become public. Even if Bobellion didn't happen, nobody would look too kindly on Rhaegar's action and most would consider his marriage to Lyanna invalid and thus Jon a bastard.
  12. Hangover of the Morning

    Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    True but those marriages were publicly announced very shortly afterwards and also didn't happen between people who were already married in the first place.
  13. Hangover of the Morning

    Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    I think it's possible that Rhaegar and Lyanna performed some sort of a wedding ceremony before (or shortly after) conceiving Jon, however, I can't imagine anyone outside of the Prince's fan club would consider the union valid and legally-binding even then, least of all almost two decades later. As far as I can tell for marriages to be valid in Westeros they have to be: i) approved by an overlord (liege lord or a king); ii) publicly announced (certainly after but most likely before too similar to reading of banns); iii) publicly held or at least accompanied by enough reliable witnesses; iv) the ceremony has to follow either an Andal, Rhoynar or First Men tradition; v) marriage has to be consummated. Hence, even if Rhaegar was unattached at the time of his elopement with Lyanna, the marriage (and Jon's status as the heir apparent of House Targaryen) would be doubted if discovered ~20 years later. Imagine some lad showing up at Winterfell at the beginning of AGoT claiming that he's a trueborn son of Brandon Stark. I doubt that Cat and Ned would start packing their stuff and vacating Winterfell for him even if he had a piece of paper and reliable witnesses (e.g. a septon) with him. The kid's claim would be surely dismissed and the marriage considered invalid and there's nothing that he could do about it. The polygamy and the fact that the Targaryens were officially disposed are another can of worms, which complicates the issue much further. That said, I can see a faction of people considering Jon as a viable candidate for IT but nobody is going to abdicate and give up their claim for him, nor will anybody fight for him purely based on his birthright. If he wants to become a king (doubtful), he'd have to gather an army of followers and conquer it. People would join him out of respect, chance to improve their position or due to lack of better choices and they wouldn't care wheteher he's Rhaegar's trueborn or baseborn son, just that he has some sort of, albeit tenuous claim to the Throne. People didn't support Robert, because his grandma was a Targ. They exploited that fact when they "elected him" to be their king. Jon could potentially win a hypothetical future Great Council if he is popular (e.g. helps to defeat the Others) and if there's a lack of better choices but in that case again wouldn't matter if he is a bastard or not.
  14. Hangover of the Morning

    Who is the luckiest character in ASOIAF?

    Completely agree. The only way I can marginally explain LF's insane luck is that since we don't have his POV, we only see the plans that succeeded and not those that failed, hence giving us the illusion that everything he does bears fruits. What if there was a myriad of contingency plans and hatched schemes that ultimately led to nowhere or weren't needed and we just haven't heard of them. Still, he lucked out massively when i) Tyrion conveniently forgot that LF tried to frame him for Jon Arryn's murder and ii) when the Lords Declarant suddenly decided to drop 100 IQ points and fall for his Jedi mind tricks.
  15. Hangover of the Morning

    [Spoilers] EP610

    I think Jaime talked about Edmure's son growing up at Casterly Rock not Edmure though I could be wrong. Why was the celebration at the Twins and not at Riverrun? I would think Walder would be itching to move to the Tully seat though he might be too old to travel.
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