Universal Sword Donor

I never said any of that. The point was that bending the knee to Joffrey was never an option, regardless of the situation. The situation remains much the same when he's declared KitN. Revenge my well be a motive but he knows he can't bend the knee and remain free or alive. If he thinks the Tyrells would marry Sansa to Loras garnering their loyalty instead of Joffrey to Marg, I have a bridge to sell you. What, uh, giant Dothraki horde does she control? Are you serious? If he thought the marriage was valid, don't you think he would have followed up on Tyrion's wife? Tyrion can't marry Sansa if he's already wed. He called her a prostitute for a reason. Tyrion making a dumb mistake and him rectifying it within 2 weeks is not going to undermine his legacy left as Hand and by destroying the Reynes/Tarbecks. Right notice how the Hoster sent people to the king to get permission to bring the Mountain to justice. Tywin bypassed his legal obligations and avenues for no reason other than an insult to his house. His SIL is the king. There's pretty much no reason to do what he did. “Thank the gods for old Lord Hoster, then. Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion. If indeed he’d sent Ser Gregor to burn and pillage—and Ned did not doubt that he had—he’d taken care to see that he rode under cover of night, without banners, in the guise of a common brigand. Should Riverrun strike back, Cersei and her father would insist that it had been the Tullys who broke the king’s peace, not the Lannisters.” He hasn't even met Dany or made it into Mereen yet. Yes especially in the context of Tyrion's situation. If you want to look at it in terms of modern morals, go ahead. I am not. Tyrion killed him because purchasing silence doesn't last. It never has. It never will. Keeping Shae around was dumb, especially since she betrayed him (another point in my favor of purchasing silence) during the trial Tywin's actions were 100% motivated by primarily his self interest. Notice how Kevan and the rest of the Lannisters are not obsessed with restoring the family image? Tywin straight up admits he had the kids murdered so that the family's (eg his) loyalty wouldn't be in question. Comparing Tyrion to Tywin is a fools errand because Tywin's direct actions and orders had such a larger effect than anything Tyrion could hope to do

The LC of the KG and two of his brothers sat at the ToJ for months while the world went to hell in a handbasket, largely because of Aerys. No blades we allowed in Aerys' presence except KG. It would have been pretty trivial for Rhaegar to have Aerys seized by those KG when the castle was asleep. It's not as if he lacked retainers to help back him up. Any Great Council would be seen by Aerys as a threat to him and his throne. That would have meant violence in and of itself. Rhaegar might have made some poor decisions but he made that speech to Jaime with an army at his back. He knew that was the only way he could effect the change needed to get Aerys off the throne.

Mongols led some pretty nifty campaigns in Russia in the winter. Used frozen rivers as highways to travel real far, real quick. Battle of the Ice comes to mind too. I don't know if it's realistic to expect much "mongol-style" warfare in Westeros OR from the Dothraki but it would be rooted in history (if grossly unrealistic given the portrayal of Dothraki warfare we've seen).

It's just not a proper marriage for any number of reasons. Right so the wedding isn't valid in Tywin's eyes. He already has the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion well in hand as well as 20 years of being Aerys' hand. Once again, he let two Tarbecks become silent sisters instead of having them raped or/or killed. And basically no one but Cat says its a good idea. If making a political decision that weakens you to the point of surrender or death and endangers thousands of other men and women isn't a good reason, I don't know what is. Turning over Jaime Lannister for Sansa and Arya (though we know that's impossible ) is going to play out pretty similarly to sleeping with Jeyne. It's going to destroy alliances and put him on the defensive in a land he doesn't control. People point out at various junctures that if he goes south to bend the knee, he won't come back alive. He doesn't exactly have strong choices. Trading Tyrion for them would be the only worthwhile offer but I doubt Tywin would trade Sansa and Arya for Tyrion. Cersei definitely wouldn't. “ If you go to King’s Landing and swear fealty, you will never be allowed to leave. If you turn your tail and retreat to Winterfell, your lords will lose all respect for you. Some may even go over to the Lannisters. ” Mostly by scope. Tyrion wants to start a war. Tywin has started a war where thousands have been burned out of hearth and home, raped, and killed. Tyrion raped (by modern definition) a bed slave. Tywin had 100 grown men rape Tyrion's wife by any definition. Tyrion murdered a singer who wanted to extort him (as well as one of the Yunkish slaves who hated him). Tywin had two children brutally murdered and did nothing to prevent their mother from being killed. Maybe in that one particular instance. Raping and pillaging thousands of square miles is not something I've seen Dany order. She's got her rough patches and has made some brutally awful decisions (163 crucified great masters and winesellers family), but nothing on the scale of Tywin. Motive is the smallest part in measuring if someone is a villain. Mao wanted to jump China's culture and economy by decades. He killed tens of millions of people and set China back more than a decade. Not many people outside of China call him a hero. The road to hell is paved with good intentions after all.

Tyrion mentions it for a reason. He had to bribe the septon to perform the marriage anyway: “Oh, you’d be astonished at what a boy can make of a few lies, fifty pieces of silver, and a drunken septon” Sansa was a ward of the crown. Arranging marriages for wards is within the power of the throne. Robb's input would be null and void given that he was a rebel and attainted at the time. Jon also had his father's permission along with his uncle shepherding him to the watch. So there was a wedding with no actual witnesses and a bribed Septon performing it If it's not a valid marriage, the marriage need not be annulled. We know weddings can be set aside for less than ironclad reasons AND we know that sending someone to the silent sisters entirely erases the wedding. Ask Quentyn Ball. Hell even killing her was an option. How did well did that work? So not only was it monstrous but completely ineffective? Seems like the silent sisters would have been a better option. He taught his son a very personal lesson by having his wife gang raped by 100 guardsmen. That might protect the reputation of his house. I fail to see how that betters the security of his house. Robb called the banners to save Ned. He loses all support if he trades Jaime for Arya/Sansa. The prevailing attitudes of the people involved are pretty indicative. “Ser Addam snorted disdainfully. “He would have to be an utter ass to trade Jaime Lannister’s life for two girls.” “The lord was unappeased. “Jaime Lannister has played you for a fool. You’ve bought a bag of empty words, no more. My Torrhen and my Eddard deserved better of you.” “Galbart Glover and Lord Jason Mallister were cooler, and Jonos Bracken almost icy, but their words were courteous enough.” Making peace with the Lannisters basically just makes Robb a hugely unpopular lord and probably puts his head on a platter. As Tywin didn't think again of Tysha until Tyrion brought her up. Once again, entirely indefensible. Tyrion is definitely on the darker side of grey. Equating his crimes with Tywin's is apples and oranges though still generally bad. The only people that have committed acts similar to what Tywin with Tysha did are Ramsay, Gregor, and the Brave Companions. Maybe Roose if you want a stretch.

Yeah I forgot Tywin specifically referenced that kind of behavior. I just remembered the "set the riverlands afire from the Red Fork to Gods Eye." “Let them,” Lord Tywin said. “Unleash Ser Gregor and send him before us with his reavers. Send forth Vargo Hoat and his freeriders as well, and Ser Amory Lorch. Each is to have three hundred horse. Tell them I want to see the riverlands afire from the Gods Eye to the Red Fork.” “They will burn, my lord,” Ser Kevan said, rising. “I shall give the commands.” He bowed and made for the door. When they were alone, Lord Tywin glanced at Tyrion. “Your savages might relish a bit of rapine. Tell them they may ride with Vargo Hoat and plunder as they like—goods, stock, women, they may take what they want and burn the rest.”

Chevauchée is a pretty common medieval warfare tactic. As someone else will probably bring up, Robb did much the same thing in the West, though I have to assume it involved less rape than the Mountain and the Brace Companions.

The septon was drunk, neither child had their parents permission (neither was age of majority though Tysha was an orphan IIRC), the witnesses were pigs. I might not be a HS, but there seem to be some mitigating factors in the validity of the marriage there. So how exactly is being brutal better here than quietly shuttling her off to the silent sisters? I have not and will never dispute that Tyrion attempting to marry Tysha and trying to live with her did anything positive for House Lannister. It flies in the face of Westerosi norms Yeah and that's why he's a villain with a cartoonish mustache (in my head canon) instead of a grey character who's made some horrible decisions I must have missed where Sansa and Arya got raped on his order. Even counting Arya in that is suspect as she's clearly not in the same situation as Sansa. Dany's torture of the wineseller's daughters is absolutely indefensible. Ordering a child gang raped because she made a mistake and because he wanted to punish Tyrion seems like a damn good reason to me. Villains can be multi-faceted and meaningful. Being labeled a villain doesn't automatically make you snidely whiplash.

So no one here is saying Tyrion didn't bring shame on his house. We're just saying that the corrective step of organizing the brutal gang rape of a child instead of, say, annulling the obviously invalid marriage and forcing her to join the silent sisters, which Tywin had done to some Tarbecks, speaks as to what kind of man he is.

That also assumes that there is no volcanic activity anywhere near the neck. I'd say that a volcanic eruption is at least as likely as the children breaking the neck with magic. WF has hot springs. I have a vague memory of someone/something mentioning the Dreadfort has hot springs too, but I can't find a direct reference to it and it's probably not canon anyway.

Frankly we have no idea for Dorne. Winterfell is almost certainly from the greenhouse. It's more than warm enough: "No. It was always warm, even when it snowed. Water from the hot springs is piped through the walls to warm them, and inside the glass gardens it was always like the hottest day of summer." The wall would have to import them. It doesn't have to be Dorne though. Braavos might have greenhouses but I'm sure more of the southern free cities have citrus-bearing trees. Myr, Tyrosh, and Lys are roughly the same latitude and pretty heavily involved in trade, especially fruit and byproducts.

Honestly portions of that are pretty in line with expected norms in Westeros for warfare. The portion about the rape and murder of Elia is entirely speculation as is letting Tyrion be executed (though I agree on the latter). Red Wedding and Tysha are really all you need to make the argument he's a villain.

There are lemons in the Value, so they are either growing or importing them from somewhere. They grow fruit in the glass gardens at WF. Lemons aren't quite as hardy as peaches but we know those grow in the Reach. Stannis drinks lemon water at the wall as well. It wouldn't really surprise me if there were spots in each kingdom -- except the Iron Islands due to poor agriculture -- that produced some type of citrus, be it in a large orchard environment or inside a greenhouse.

It's not mock outrage. You're whitewashing horrible gang rape of a child who's only fault was falling in love with his son. That you don't think it makes him a villain in a book of fiction is telling enough. Most of Tywin's actions are not villainous unless you're a stark fanboy. However that particular order is only matched by characters who would definitely fall in the villain category (Ramsay, the Mountain, some of the mountains men, Vargo hoat's crew). Just because someone doesn't do it constantly doesn't mean it doesn't drag him down You don't have to be evil to be a villain, it just helps cement the obvious. Maybe you prefer antagonist?

So to be clear, we're at the point where people believe a guy who ordered -- did not need to do this -- the gang rape of a child AND THEN MADE HIS SON TAKE PART is not a villain? He could have done literally almost anything to wash away that Tyrion marriage but his stern leadership decided gang rape was the way to go. WTF