R+L=J | Re-read... again (List of Clues)

[RadianceLux]

aGoT Chapter 35 pg. 374

Ned is at the brothel to see Robert's bastard daughter:

... but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

It is interesting that he thinks of his promises to Lyanna while making a promise to this women concerning her child.

It is also interesting to note the plural promise(s) so he made more then one promise to her. The price he'd paid may be the tarnishing of his honor and the strife it created with Catelyn.

[ArabellaVidal]

All of these and more have been discussed in the pinned r+l=j thread extensively.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

All of these and more have been discussed in the pinned r+l=j thread extensively.

I agree with you. There is a R+L=J thread that is pinned to this board. You can talk to everyone there about your theories.

[RadianceLux]

aGoT Chapter 39 pg. 415:

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. In the dream his friends rode with him as they had in life. (1)Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; (2)faithful Theo Wull; (3)Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; (4)Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle heart; (5)the crannogman, Howard Reed; (6)Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces... They were seven facing three... Yet they were no ordinary three... Ser Authur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips... Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade... Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

Ned then questioned them as to why they weren't at the Trident, King's Landing, the siege of Storm's End, or fleeing with the last remaining Targaryen they respond each stating that they were not there when he asked why Ser Gerold simply states "We swore a vow."

By stating that they swore a vow do they mean the kingsguard vow? If so then they should by all rights be with the last remaining Targaryens, unless they did not see them as the family of the King perhaps they saw Rhaegar as their king (who had choosen Lyanna's child as his heir) instead of Aerys, it has been mentioned in the series that Aerys fears being overthrown by his son Rhaegar and this would not be the first time that the Kingsguard was divided, think the Dance of Dragons. These three were loyal to Rhaegar while the remaining 4 remained loyal to Aerys.

Also of note in this excerpt "Lyanna in her bed of blood" you can see this term again here:

Chapter 61 pg. 657:

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,"

Clearly Lyanna has just given birth.

[RadianceLux]

All of these and more have been discussed in the pinned r+l=j thread extensively.

So does that mean I am not allowed to discuss them here?

[ArabellaVidal]

So does that mean I am not allowed to discuss them here?

Mods usually lock threads which are too identical. Besides, you will find more response on that thread. You have to bring something relatively new for a separate thread. All of this and more is already part of the pinned thread. Even then new readers and reviewers are always welcome and even encouraged though we don't bring much that is new. Nice analysis.

Cheers.

[RadianceLux]

Mods usually lock threads which are too identical. Besides, you will find more response on that thread. You have to bring something relatively new for a separate thread. All of this and more is already part of the pinned thread. Even then new readers and reviewers are always welcome and even encouraged though we don't bring much that is new. Nice analysis.

Cheers.

Ok thanks for the insight, I just wanted to use this thread to compile my finding, while getting input from others. Then I can share my findings on the main thread. I wanted to keep it separate until I finished so that it will be based solely on what I find in the novels and not be confused with conjecture or opinions. I suppose I could do that in a word document :P

[ArabellaVidal]

Ok thanks for the insight, I just wanted to use this thread to compile my finding, while getting input from others. Then I can share my findings on the main thread. I wanted to keep it separate until I finished so that it will be based solely on what I find in the novels and not be confused with conjecture or opinions. I suppose I could do that in a word document :P

Compiling clues is a noble aim that I, personally, do not argue with.

[Cody Garris]

aGoT Chapter 20 pg. 199

This is a very telling line, Ned draws the comparison of Sansa pleading for the life of her dire-wolf and when Lyanna was pleading with him, Promise me, Ned. It would stand to reason that she was pleading for a life as well, if so who's life if not her newborn son.

Also they are both pleading for the protection of a life from Robert.

[A Pack of Wolves]

I am new to this forum, but I am reading ASOIAF for the third time, it is kind of addictive, at least for me. So I see here a lot of opinions regarding the topic of Jon's lineage. For me, it is more and more clear that something about his birth made Ned to hide the truth about Jon's mother. After all, he was telling a lie for 14 years. Which lie if not the one about Jon's mother? And why? Unless something about his birth would have put him in danger?

"He remembered the angry words the had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaeger's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned has named that murder: Robert called it war... Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's Death, and the grief they had shared over her passing."

Lyanna died after Rhaegar's children died and after Ned confronted Robert about this. I believe that an important clue that Jon is Rhaegar's son is that Ned hide his identity because he knew that Robert would kill every Targaryen alive. And that made him "fight the last battles of the war alone in the south." In the south, in Dorne, where he found Lyanna, in the Tower of Joy, guarded by three kingsguards.

At that time, Rhaegar and Elia's children where dead. The three kingsguards were there to protect something or somebody of royal blood because as Ned remembers" “We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold." The kingsguards are bound to protect the king and his family and if Rhaegar was not there but Lyanna was, perhaps they were married (there is the love) and already have a son - which must have been the most important and also endangered person in the seven kingdoms.

This is my opinion, Ned was telling a lie for all those years, to protect Jon, one of the last Targaryens from Robert's anger and rage against all Targaryens.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

There is a pinned thread in this part of the forum. You can take your discussion there.

[DrunkSister]

snip

There is a pinned thread in this part of the forum. You can take your discussion there.

At which point expressing the opinion based on evidence found during a reread becomes a discussion? A Pack of Wolves is compiling evidence and expressing belief, but until somebody responds and a conversation starts I don't think it is a matter that needs to be taken to the pinned thread. :dunno:

[Ellfoy]

A list of clues seem to be a good idea to me !