Weirwoods Eat People.

[Ben H'gahr]

This means ... Soylent Green is Weirdwood chow

[LmL]

I always thought of CotF as dökkálfar, nature based spirits that live underground (norse fairies/dark elves) the opposite of Ljósálfar (norse fairies/light elves), similar but different than svartálfar (norse dwarves,/black elves). Similar to the Seelie and Unseelie court.

spoon89, I've been wondering about this for a long time. The weirwood and cotf lore seems very heavily influenced by Norse myth - I've been really getting some ideas about weirwoods by reading up on Yggdrasil and Odin - so I have been looking for the "light elves" for a long time. If the cotf are the dark elves, where are light elves? I have a couple ideas, but I am curious if you have considered this.

I'm very curious about what George's idea of "Old Ones" are, because his variety live beneath Leng, and the Lengi have large golden eyes which can see in the dark. They have medium bronze / teak skin tone, but that may be from the human side of the equation. The Lengi are extremely tall, which implies that the Old Ones there are tall creatures with golden eyes. You following me here? There are a ton of clues about skin changers being on Leng related to tiger skins and intelligent apes, and then we have the fact that "Old One" is a nickname for the mythological archetype of the Horned God, one which has several incarnations, many of which George is clearly referencing with his "Horned Lord" King beyond the Wall and constellation, his garth the green lore, his Sacred Order of Green Men stuff, etc. Robert is called a "horned god" and a "giant" when he dons his antlered helm, and Renly becomes a giant as well when he dons his. There's a bunch more to this, but again... was wondering you had any thoughts.

[spoon89]

After my reads of series and the world book, GRRM seems to have drawn on three major sources, high fantasy through Tolkien which drew from the European myth (Anglo, Germanic and Nordic), the pulp horror fiction of H. P. Lovecraft and the pulp sword and sorcery fantasy of Robert E. Howard. There are elements of all three throughout the books and many more in the world book. I think that sword and sorcery fantasy is the influence behind the Lengii and their Old Ones.

 

After reading up, I have to revise my previous statement. I dug out and dusted off some 50 year old Norse mythology books, they are out of print and confusing.

The elves in old Norse mythology are not woodland spirits, they are nature spirits of one sort or another. Also note that the old Norse mythology had a lot of concepts of duality and included binary opposing relationships.

 

The Svartálfar (black elves) are described as shorter than men with a similar build, with swarthy skin and dark hair, with bright eyes. They have a slightly animalist/bestial look, not ugly, but inhuman. They are subterranean, while not hurt by sunlight, they prefer darkness. Their "home world" is Svartálfheim, a land earth, stone and tunnels among the roots of Yggdrasil, located below Migard and above Helheim (realm of the dead). They are not unfriendly to men, but tend to focus on their own affairs and take offense easily. In later mythologies they likely got mixed together with the Dvergr, another subterranean race which inhabits the same realm but which digs, mines and are artisans and crafters. I think this would be the Children of the Forest.

 

The next two are a binary opposing relationship (light vs dark)

 

The Ljósálfar (light elves) are described as tall or taller than men, but with a slight build, fair skin and hair, with bright eyes. Their appearance is similar to a beautiful human, but have an as supernatural air about them. They are surface dwellers whom, enjoy warmth, sunlight and the starry sky. Their "home world" is Álfheim, a land of forests and green fields, located above Midgard (mans realm) and below Asgard. They are light of spirit, but indifferent to men, except when provoked, flattered or enamored by men. At times they may have interbred with humans (extremely beautiful men and women). In later mythologies they likely became fairies of the Seelie court. I think that they are the Green men.

The Dökkálfar (dark elves) are described as tall or taller than men, with a slight build, but have pale skin and hair and eyes. They have an otherworldly appearance and predominately male. They are surface dwellers who prefer cold and darkness. Their "home world" is Midgard though they also have some association with Helheim. They are dark souls, generally unfriendly to men, but may protect people at times, they usually menacing and vengeful, especially provoked. In later mythologies they likely became fairies of the Unseelie court. I think this would be the Others.
 

[LmL]

Very cool Oon89, I've been looking really hard for more details about these groups, but hadn't been able to find it. Of course Martin rarely takes anything from his influences without modifying things to fit his story, but the associations here seem pretty strong. I know Martin has used the word Sidhe to describe the Others, what do you know about the Sidhe?

Also just FYI in case you didn't see Ran's announcement, all comments made between yesterday and whenever they fix the board upgrade will be lost after the upgrade, so you may want to make a copy of your ideas here.... Very good. I'd even recommend typing up a draft of a post; you could take these three groups and pull a couple of quotes. To support, it would make for a good read. TY for the info :cheers:

I'm most interested in any ideas you have about the Sacred Order of Green Men, because we have heard so little about them, and they are not cotf. What are they, and where did they come from? What do you think of the Old One connection between the horned god archetype George is using for Garth and the SOoGM and the Old Ones on Leng? That's interesting because it unites the two supposed provocateurs of the Long Night meteor and comet impacts. Not sure if you've read my comments about this, but I am fairly certain the Hammer of the Waters was a meteor impact from the second moons destruction. We are told the Bloodstone Emperor caused the Long Night with his blood betrayal and evil deeds; and over in Westeros we are told the children called down the Hammer from the either the Isle of Faces or the Children's Tower at Moat Cailin. If Azor Ahai was connected to Old Ones on Leng, and the Hammer summoning was done by SOoGM and not children, we might have a version of this story that matches. Azor Ahai, as I have said, might be a baphomet type horned lord, with goat horns or bull horns or dragon horns. The Old One himself.

[Warrewal Halfaxe]

Eating humans doesn't guarantee evil

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

Eating humans doesn't guarantee evil

Hitler liked dogs.

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

After my reads of series and the world book, GRRM seems to have drawn on three major sources, high fantasy through Tolkien which drew from the European myth (Anglo, Germanic and Nordic), the pulp horror fiction of H. P. Lovecraft and the pulp sword and sorcery fantasy of Robert E. Howard. There are elements of all three throughout the books and many more in the world book. I think that sword and sorcery fantasy is the influence behind the Lengii and their Old Ones.
 
After reading up, I have to revise my previous statement. I dug out and dusted off some 50 year old Norse mythology books, they are out of print and confusing.
The elves in old Norse mythology are not woodland spirits, they are nature spirits of one sort or another. Also note that the old Norse mythology had a lot of concepts of duality and included binary opposing relationships.
 
The Svartálfar (black elves) are described as shorter than men with a similar build, with swarthy skin and dark hair, with bright eyes. They have a slightly animalist/bestial look, not ugly, but inhuman. They are subterranean, while not hurt by sunlight, they prefer darkness. Their "home world" is Svartálfheim, a land earth, stone and tunnels among the roots of Yggdrasil, located below Migard and above Helheim (realm of the dead). They are not unfriendly to men, but tend to focus on their own affairs and take offense easily. In later mythologies they likely got mixed together with the Dvergr, another subterranean race which inhabits the same realm but which digs, mines and are artisans and crafters. I think this would be the Children of the Forest.
 
The next two are a binary opposing relationship (light vs dark)
 
The Ljósálfar (light elves) are described as tall or taller than men, but with a slight build, fair skin and hair, with bright eyes. Their appearance is similar to a beautiful human, but have an as supernatural air about them. They are surface dwellers whom, enjoy warmth, sunlight and the starry sky. Their "home world" is Álfheim, a land of forests and green fields, located above Midgard (mans realm) and below Asgard. They are light of spirit, but indifferent to men, except when provoked, flattered or enamored by men. At times they may have interbred with humans (extremely beautiful men and women). In later mythologies they likely became fairies of the Seelie court. I think that they are the Green men.

The Dökkálfar (dark elves) are described as tall or taller than men, with a slight build, but have pale skin and hair and eyes. They have an otherworldly appearance and predominately male. They are surface dwellers who prefer cold and darkness. Their "home world" is Midgard though they also have some association with Helheim. They are dark souls, generally unfriendly to men, but may protect people at times, they usually menacing and vengeful, especially provoked. In later mythologies they likely became fairies of the Unseelie court. I think this would be the Others.

Love the Info, the more we know, the more educated our guesses become, knowledge absolutely equals power.