Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

LmL

Astronomy of Ice and Fire: the Language of Leviathan

Recommended Posts

Great job, LmL. It is really enjoyable to read. Concerning swords - or I've missed it or it wasn't mentioned - the valiryan steel sword of house Harlaw, Nightfall. We know from Wiki the sword has a moonstone pommel and that Dalton Greyjoy took Nightfall from a dead corsair, but it is unknown how the sword passed to House Harlaw. Could the part of taking this sword from a dead corsair (pirate) be another replay of ancient history and thus another evidence for the part of BSE had been defeated at Battle Isle and his sword taken?

 

 

Heh, I think Nightfall and the pirate lord are both in there in LmL's essay ;)

 

 

Yes? I suppose it missed me. Didn't have time to read the whole essay at once, so I've read part to part in a couple of days instead. :-(

 

 

What's fantastic is that Vuk came to the same conclusion about that bit that I did, without looking at my reasoning. That's actually even better than someone reading my analysis and agreeing...

 

And Vuk I definitely don't mind if you stop by to say "nice thread" before you're finished reading it... I know they are long and it's always good to have the bump ;)  And thank you for calling it an enjoyable read - that's always my biggest concern, readability. The material itself is quite interesting, so that's never the problem, it's making everything read smoothly that is the challenge. So thanks buddy. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But it's a great point, both about the random "pirate lord" on an island in Oldtown (there's gotta be more there), and re Nightfall, how GRRM gives snippets of history retold as part of various background stories.

"Pirate" lord probably just means that his main strength was ships - that suggests the GeoDawnians and their possible invasion of Westeros.

Alternatively, the very old weirwood at the Ravenry might suggest the "pirate Lord" was in fact aligned with the CotF and AGAINST the invading BSE, and was a "pirate" because he prayed on the invading GeoDawnian ships. He may be what broke the BSE at Battle Isle (where dragons used to roost, and where there's a fused stone fortress).

Meaning, the fortress at the base of the High Tower was almost certainly the BSE's base in Westeros. Conversely, the "pirate lord" was at the Ravenry, in the Citadel; I've said elsewhere that the "citadel" is a military name, and there should be a reason for this. I think it's because it was built on the site of the anti-BSE side, on the banks of the Honeywine. From there, they took him on, and broke him, at Battle Isle.

ETA: this would mean the first Hightower who cleared out the dragons from Battle Isle may have been the "pirate lord" allied with the CotF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think there were any "native" Ironborn: they were just First Men. When the meteor hit, they would have suffered huge losses, but the survivors then mixed with the arriving GeoDawnians, to "forge" the Ironborn.

 

Yep that's what I was trying to say. ;)

The Goodbrothers (incidentally the only living family to produce more kings than the Greyjoys) are descended from the GK's leal eldest brother - saying they didn't get his wife's "merling" genes. Perhaps representing the original First Men who didn't marry the arrivals, but accepted the Drowned God. The ones who didn't accept him became the very first thralls (slaves; thanks again BSE).

 

The Goodbrothers are so loaded with important symbolism - Iexplored a lot of it this essay, but I haven't figured out the leal elder brother thing yet.  One lead I had a few months ago was the idea of the Grey King as Prometheus, on account of the "stealing fire from the gods" idea. Prometheus does have an elder brother - Atlas, who stands at the far western edge of the world and holds up the heavens. That puts us in mind of the Farwynds, the westernmost point of land in the known world. And as you say, they exhibit the most skinchanger traits... but they skinchange sea animals, so how should we think of them? Skinchanging comes from CotF, but then we have the stories of the merlings and deep ones siring hybrids, the Grey King and his mermaid wife... so are the Farwynds to be thought of as "skinchangers," "deep one hybrids," or perhaps both? Was it skinchanging that enabled the cross breeding? 

 

​The other unique thing about House Goodbrother is that they mine and don't live near the sea. Perhaps that's a clue they are a First Men house with no Deep One / GEotD / pirate blood. But who the fuck is the grey king's brother, or Azor Ahai's brother for that matter?

The Grey King taking a mermaid to wife... hmm, there's that hybrid stuff again. And the western-most Ironborn, the Farwynds, are of course the most obviously "merling"-blooded; pretty clearly pointing to something come from the west. I wonder if it was the GeoDawnians as such that came to the Iron Islands at all, or only an army/navy of the BSE's hybrid human-fish people. There's no gemstone eyes and those tell-tale signs among the Ironborn to suggest traditional GeoDawnian descent... but there's webbed feet associated with merlings.

As for the dragon/storm stuff: I was looking at it through Ironborn myth only, where the storm is the enemy, and the Grey King who defeated it was the dragon. The myth is a one-sided interpretation precisely because it fails to acknowledge the storm-dragon connection (ie the dragon caused / is the storm).

 

I gotchya - that sort of fits with calling the sea dragon the drowned god and all the rest. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But it's a great point, both about the random "pirate lord" on an island in Oldtown (there's gotta be more there), and re Nightfall, how GRRM gives snippets of history retold as part of various background stories.

"Pirate" lord probably just means that his main strength was ships - that suggests the GeoDawnians and their possible invasion of Westeros.

Alternatively, the very old weirwood at the Ravenry might suggest the "pirate Lord" was in fact aligned with the CotF and AGAINST the invading BSE, and was a "pirate" because he prayed on the invading GeoDawnian ships. He may be what broke the BSE at Battle Isle (where dragons used to roost, and where there's a fused stone fortress).

Meaning, the fortress at the base of the High Tower was almost certainly the BSE's base in Westeros. Conversely, the "pirate lord" was at the Ravenry, in the Citadel; I've said elsewhere that the "citadel" is a military name, and there should be a reason for this. I think it's because it was built on the site of the anti-BSE side, on the banks of the Honeywine. From there, they took him on, and broke him, at Battle Isle.

ETA: this would mean the first Hightower who cleared out the dragons from Battle Isle may have been the "pirate lord" allied with the CotF.

 

It can really get confusing sometimes, huh? Sometimes you just have let the ideas marinate and keep doing re-reads and word searches until more clues reveal; themselves. Sometimes you have to have part of a hypothesis in your head before something jumps out to you.  I had generally thought that the pirate lord story was just sort of hanging around the area, or that the revelry keep was part of the holdings of the BSE when he invaded. But who knows. 

 

I will say that the cotf have been involved with the Citadel from the first. It was Uthor Hightower's twisted son Peremore who founded it - and he may have even been a cotf hybrid, as we are told the hybrid children are weak and don't live long, and that would also explain the cotf involvement with the early citadel.  Uthor married a daughter of Garth the Green, who would be the original horned man to come to Westeros, right? I've always assumed the Hightowers were descended from the GEotD traders who came there. Uthor seems a nod to King Uthor (Arthur) Pendragon, Pendragon meaning "head dragon." The Hightowers have a lot of fiery stuff in their sigil and symbolism... while Garth and Highgarden are all about the green.  Oldtown has fused stone and paved everything, Highgarden (the original) was like a living city, and the throne is a living oak. Maris, Garth's daughter marrying Uthor seems like a joining of earth and fire, in a sense. What do you make of that? 

 

Let me ask a separate but related question: why did Azor Ahai come to Westeros, anyway? And for that matter, why did the GEotD come here before him? 

 

I will just say that I think the green men, the horned men, came to Westeros FROM the GEotD. The ones on the Isle of Faces, if they are still there, come from the GEotD - I think they might be the "Old Ones" from Leng, myself, and I am collecting the evidence for that. Just a hypothesis at this point, but there it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont mind that analyses are long if I have enough time to read it. :-) it is a huge subject after all.
Btw, the upcoming destruction of ice moon I had in mind since your first essay. And that destruction will destroy the Wall as well, because its building is connected with ice magic, which source is in Ice moon. Maybe another Hammer of Waters is solution for second LN - alongside the line of Wall, from coast to coast, thus creating a new continent from the real North. :-) Or in the Neck, which is simpler ofc, maybe some meteor strike, but that would mean a loss of Winterfell. :-)

 
 
 
 
 
 
What's fantastic is that Vuk came to the same conclusion about that bit that I did, without looking at my reasoning. That's actually even better than someone reading my analysis and agreeing...
 
And Vuk I definitely don't mind if you stop by to say "nice thread" before you're finished reading it... I know they are long and it's always good to have the bump ;)  And thank you for calling it an enjoyable read - that's always my biggest concern, readability. The material itself is quite interesting, so that's never the problem, it's making everything read smoothly that is the challenge. So thanks buddy. :)

A Forum of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones
»
Editing a post in Astronomy of Ice and Fire: the Language of Leviathan
Topic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something weird is happening with qouting. =-O

 

Yeah no doubt. I understood though. And yes, if there is another comet - moon collision, I expect that might lead to the Wall coming down somehow. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I will say that the cotf have been involved with the Citadel from the first. It was Uthor Hightower's twisted son Peremore who founded it - and he may have even been a cotf hybrid, as we are told the hybrid children are weak and don't live long, and that would also explain the cotf involvement with the early citadel.  Uthor married a daughter of Garth the Green, who would be the original horned man to come to Westeros, right? I've always assumed the Hightowers were descended from the GEotD traders who came there. Uthor seems a nod to King Uthor (Arthur) Pendragon, Pendragon meaning "head dragon." The Hightowers have a lot of fiery stuff in their sigil and symbolism... while Garth and Highgarden are all about the green.  Oldtown has fused stone and paved everything, Highgarden (the original) was like a living city, and the throne is a living oak. Maris, Garth's daughter marrying Uthor seems like a joining of earth and fire, in a sense. What do you make of that?

The Uther thing is a key link with the Daynes: the most famous of which is Arthur, son of Uther Pendragon. The origin of the name "Dayne" is "worthy citizen", it's clearly a designation taken on by a key person; the Uther/Arthur thing suggests the Hightowers were the progenitors of the Daynes, and of course "Hightower" isn't their original name. It's what they're called retrospectively because they become known for their High Tower, the tallest structure in Westeros for millennia.

So I think the fact that the very first "Hightower" is named Uthor/Uther (Pendragon) is basically the reveal of the family's true origin: they're dragonspawn, ie GeoDawnians. Now, the fact that they built their watchtower on top of the defeated BSE's fortress... and their sword is Vigilance, and they're basically all about securing their rear in the Reach (marriage marriage marriage) so they can focus on watching out for an attack from the sea/west.

They seem to have originally been some sort of GeoDawnian rebel force - perhaps representing one part of an alliance that broke the BSE. This might feed into the myth of the son of the sacrificed mother overturning his father's works: if Uthor was perhaps the BSE's vengeful son. And his sacrificed mother - a child of the forest perhaps? The "helpful" elf? ;) Hence his weirwood connection at the Ravenry, and him being an ideal candidate to overthrow his father.

But, yeah. Pendragon, son of Fire Dragon, marrying the Horned Lord's daughter is a teency bit like a joining of fire and earth; of anti-BSE GeoDawnian stock and First Men stock.

Now, I'm not sure about the origin of the Horned Men - I associate them with the FM and Garth. The original brutalish religion they brought to Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I just think based on the fact that the green men are upholding/watching over the human side of the Pact suggest they're the very core of First Men religion/original leadership. What I call the original brutalish Garth, sacrifice etc, that was "gentled" in Westeros, in the same way the Faith would be gentled.

Coz everybody new who comes along just ends up marrying one of thems wily Hightowers ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 
It can really get confusing sometimes, huh? Sometimes you just have let the ideas marinate and keep doing re-reads and word searches until more clues reveal; themselves. Sometimes you have to have part of a hypothesis in your head before something jumps out to you.  I had generally thought that the pirate lord story was just sort of hanging around the area, or that the revelry keep was part of the holdings of the BSE when he invaded. But who knows. 
 
I will say that the cotf have been involved with the Citadel from the first. It was Uthor Hightower's twisted son Peremore who founded it - and he may have even been a cotf hybrid, as we are told the hybrid children are weak and don't live long, and that would also explain the cotf involvement with the early citadel.  Uthor married a daughter of Garth the Green, who would be the original horned man to come to Westeros, right? I've always assumed the Hightowers were descended from the GEotD traders who came there. Uthor seems a nod to King Uthor (Arthur) Pendragon, Pendragon meaning "head dragon." The Hightowers have a lot of fiery stuff in their sigil and symbolism... while Garth and Highgarden are all about the green.  Oldtown has fused stone and paved everything, Highgarden (the original) was like a living city, and the throne is a living oak. Maris, Garth's daughter marrying Uthor seems like a joining of earth and fire, in a sense. What do you make of that? 
 
Let me ask a separate but related question: why did Azor Ahai come to Westeros, anyway? And for that matter, why did the GEotD come here before him? 
 
I will just say that I think the green men, the horned men, came to Westeros FROM the GEotD. The ones on the Isle of Faces, if they are still there, come from the GEotD - I think they might be the "Old Ones" from Leng, myself, and I am collecting the evidence for that. Just a hypothesis at this point, but there it is.

That last will be very interested to see - from Leng to Isle of Faces. ;-)
In a terms of strategy Iron Islands look like the most logical solution for BSE's stronghold assuming he went east to get west(eros). That Seastone Chair and all that broken sword stuff. ;-)
Maybe Old Ones went south to get North and created Others. :-) Leng is full of jungles just as Sothoryos so they could get through. Ofc, they have that underground part in common with the greenseers. Maybe Old Ones are Old Gods. :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That last will be very interested to see - from Leng to Isle of Faces. ;-)
In a terms of strategy Iron Islands look like the most logical solution for BSE's stronghold assuming he went east to get west(eros). That Seastone Chair and all that broken sword stuff. ;-)
Maybe Old Ones went south to get North and created Others. :-) Leng is full of jungles just as Sothoryos so they could get through. Ofc, they have that underground part in common with the greenseers. Maybe Old Ones are Old Gods. :-)

 

The gate is lost. Donal Noye had closed and chained it, but it was there for the taking, the iron bars glimmering red with reflected firelight, the cold black tunnel behind. No one had fallen back to defend it; the only safety was on top of the Wall, seven hundred feet up the crooked wooden stairs. “What gods do you pray to?” Jon asked Satin.

 
“The Seven,” the boy from Oldtown said.
 
 “Pray, then,” Jon told him. “Pray to your new gods, and I’ll pray to my old ones.” It all turned here. (ASOS, Jon)
 
 
For her sake, Ned had built a small sept where she might sing to the seven faces of god, but the blood of the First Men still flowed in the veins of the Starks, and his own gods were the old ones, the nameless, faceless gods of the greenwood they shared with the vanished children of the forest. (AGOT, Catelyn)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more, just to tease it a bit:

 

“You won’t find it. If you did it wouldn’t open. Not for you. It’s the Black Gate.” Sam plucked at the faded black wool of his sleeve. “Only a man of the Night’s Watch can open it, he said. A Sworn Brother who has said his words.” 

 
“He said.” Jojen frowned. “This … Coldhands?” 
 
“That wasn’t his true name,” said Gilly, rocking. “We only called him that, Sam and me. His hands were cold as ice, but he saved us from the dead men, him and his ravens, and he brought us here on his elk.” 
 
“His elk?” said Bran, wonderstruck.
 
 “His elk?” said Meera, startled. 
 
“His ravens?” said Jojen. 
 
“Hodor?” said Hodor. 
 
“Was he green?” Bran wanted to know. “Did he have antlers?”
 
 The fat man was confused. “The elk?”
 
 “Coldhands,” said Bran impatiently. “The green men ride on elks, Old Nan used to say. Sometimes they have antlers too.”
 
“He wasn’t a green man. He wore blacks, like a brother of the Watch, but he was pale as a wight, with hands so cold that at first I was afraid. The wights have blue eyes, though, and they don’t have tongues, or they’ve forgotten how to use them.” The fat man turned to Jojen. “He’ll be waiting. We should go. Do you have anything warmer to wear? The Black Gate is cold, and the other side of the Wall is even colder. You—” 
 
“Why didn’t he come with you?” Meera gestured toward Gilly and her babe. “They came with you, why not him? Why didn’t you bring him through this Black Gate too?” 
 
“He … he can’t.” 
 
“Why not?” 
 
“The Wall. The Wall is more than just ice and stone, he said. There are spells woven into it … old ones, and strong. He cannot pass beyond the Wall.” 
 
It grew very quiet in the castle kitchen then. Bran could hear the soft crackle of the flames, the wind stirring the leaves in the night, the creak of the skinny weirwood reaching for the moon. Beyond the gates the monsters live, and the giants and the ghouls, he remembered Old Nan saying, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong. So go to sleep, my little Brandon, my baby boy. You needn’t fear. There are no monsters here.  (ASOS, Bran)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just think based on the fact that the green men are upholding/watching over the human side of the Pact suggest they're the very core of First Men religion/original leadership. What I call the original brutalish Garth, sacrifice etc, that was "gentled" in Westeros, in the same way the Faith would be gentled.

Coz everybody new who comes along just ends up marrying one of thems wily Hightowers ;)

 

What ARE they doing on the Isle of Faces? How are they upholding a pact? What's on that Isle? It's one of the prime suspects for significant magical acts... so many questions. 

Do you think Garth came from the GEotD, or is he meant to be thought of as "native" Westerosi?

 

Just to be clear, I am seeing a picture of greenseers fighting each other - some which stay "green," and some which turn to fire or ice magic. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 
What ARE they doing on the Isle of Faces? How are they upholding a pact? What's on that Isle? It's one of the prime suspects for significant magical acts... so many questions. 

Do you think Garth came from the GEotD, or is he meant to be thought of as "native" Westerosi?
 
Just to be clear, I am seeing a picture of greenseers fighting each other - some which stay "green," and some which turn to fire or ice magic. 


The Isle of the Faces holds some long-standing significance. The God's Eye location is surely significant. It's the largest concentration of weirwoods south of the Wall (maybe anywhere?) - so by itself it's immensely important.

The Green Men are the druid leaders (priest kings of a kind) of the First Men, who came to Westeros from Essos across the unbroken Arm of Dorne. Garth is a memory of one of the particularly relevant Green Men, their "saviour" figure (probably awash in AA/BSE symbolism, then). The "older, darker" Garth, with the sacrifice etc, represents the original religion of the First Men that they brought to Westeros, before converting to worshipping the Old Gods. It's not an unreasonable suggestion that once the religion is abandoned, its practices become stories/myth attached to the main cultural hero.

So Garth is an amalgam of a real Green Man head druid (his deeds glorified in song, until he is a paragon of fruitfulness and plenty) and stories of the ur-religion of the people he lead.

Back to the Green Men on the Isle of Faces: once the Pact is signed, the druids become the Order of the Green Men, tending to the most powerful concentration of weirwoods (anywhere?). There's actually an element of "balance of power" here: the leaders of the FM become hostages at the isle, but if you look at it from another angle, "tending" to the trees could quickly turn to "cutting down" the trees - everyone has skin in the game. There's a clear joining/marriage here, where both sides are exposed to, and protecting, something precious to the other side.

A true Pact. A kind of mutually assured destruction, if we're being cynical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Uther thing is a key link with the Daynes: the most famous of which is Arthur, son of Uther Pendragon. The origin of the name "Dayne" is "worthy citizen", it's clearly a designation taken on by a key person; the Uther/Arthur thing suggests the Hightowers were the progenitors of the Daynes, and of course "Hightower" isn't their original name. It's what they're called retrospectively because they become known for their High Tower, the tallest structure in Westeros for millennia.

So I think the fact that the very first "Hightower" is named Uthor/Uther (Pendragon) is basically the reveal of the family's true origin: they're dragonspawn, ie GeoDawnians. Now, the fact that they built their watchtower on top of the defeated BSE's fortress... and their sword is Vigilance, and they're basically all about securing their rear in the Reach (marriage marriage marriage) so they can focus on watching out for an attack from the sea/west.

They seem to have originally been some sort of GeoDawnian rebel force - perhaps representing one part of an alliance that broke the BSE. This might feed into the myth of the son of the sacrificed mother overturning his father's works: if Uthor was perhaps the BSE's vengeful son. And his sacrificed mother - a child of the forest perhaps? The "helpful" elf? ;) Hence his weirwood connection at the Ravenry, and him being an ideal candidate to overthrow his father.

But, yeah. Pendragon, son of Fire Dragon, marrying the Horned Lord's daughter is a teency bit like a joining of fire and earth; of anti-BSE GeoDawnian stock and First Men stock.

Now, I'm not sure about the origin of the Horned Men - I associate them with the FM and Garth. The original brutalish religion they brought to Westeros.

 

That all makes a lot of sense to me. I've been thinking about the first Dayne as being the son of AA and NN, and you're basically suggesting that Hightowers and Daynes are distantly related. That's interesting, when you think about my hypothesis that the Sword of the Morning Daynes represent one faction or side and the Sword of the Evening (or just non-SOTM) Daynes represent another. The SOTE Daynes would be the BSE - and Samwell Dayne (non-SOTM) sacked and burned Oldtown. That's a BSE thing to do. Vorian Dayne went to the Wall, and it's likely AA went to the Wall and became either the NK or LH (I am leaning towards AA => NK at the moment).

 

SOTM Dayne married Nymeria, a foreign conqueror. What does that mean? Well, it's a Hightower thing to do, as you noted. It indicates that the House Dayne was founded by a native marrying a foreigner... that's more or less in keeping with your ideas here. 

 

The only ting is that there's a lot of creepy creepy vibes about the Hightower. Dude hasn't been down in 10 years, and maybe just maybe he'll raise an army from the deeps to fight the Ironborn? WTH is that about?

 

“What is Lord Hightower doing?” Sam blurted. “My father always said he was as wealthy as the Lannisters, and could command thrice as many swords as any of Highgarden’s other bannermen.”

 

“More, if he sweeps the cobblestones,” the captain said, “but swords are no good against the ironmen, unless the men who wield them know how to walk on water.”

 

“The Hightower must be doing something.”

 

“To be sure. Lord Leyton’s locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. Might be he’ll raise an army from the deeps. Or not. "  (AFFC, Sam)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love reading your essays, and this reminded me of something. Old Nan says that the Others hate iron, and throughout the books iron is noted as being for raven craft, but when Jon is talking to Aemon about Sam becoming a steward, he mentions that black iron is for warcraft. I've never found this mentioned anywhere else, and had no idea if it meant something. Any ideas?

 

Hey Clarissa, I didn't miss your comment. I looked at the wiki and here's what it says:

 

These metals include:

  • Black iron (Ravenry) 
  • Brass 
  • Bronze (Astronomy
  • Copper (History) 
  • Electrum (Astrology)
  • Yellow Gold (Economics) 
  • Iron (Warcraft) 
  • Lead 
  • Pale steel (Smithing) 
  • Pewter 
  • Platinum 
  • Red gold 
  • Silver (Medicine and healing) 
  • Steel 
  • Tin 
  • Valyrian steel (Magic and the occult) - Only one in one hundred holds a link of Valyrian steel; the study of magic is looked down upon by most maesters.[8]

 

Not sure what to make of that, since iron is usually black. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah I'm feeling the Dayne duality. Perhaps there's a very very good reason they decided not to pass the sword down automatically father to son - maybe the Targs aren't the only one with a "coin toss" chance of light and dark offspring.

I'd like to set up a clearer understanding of the Hightower, Dayne and Stark roles. Are we looking at a single conflict or separate ones (the breaking of the BSE and a fight against the Others), and did the different families participate in some but not all parts of the various conflicts?

There's also this final thing that bugs me: how do you "defeat" the Others? They come with winter (a natural or induced Long Nightish one), and you can fight them, but winter ends when it ends (the LN took a while for the dust in the atmosphere to settle). Ultimately, there's no physical grand battle victory against the Others: they would "melt away" (lol) as winter receded. On the other hand, the breaking of the BSE at Battle Isle WAS a big single battle that, in a sense, restored a metaphysical dawn, ending the BSE's dark reign.

So did the songs confuse the natural ending of the Long Night and equally natural withdrawal of the Others, with an actual defeat of a bloody sorcerous tyrant? ETA: was what went down at Battle Isle the REAL Battle for the Dawn?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The weight of evidence for the LH being a Dayne/Hightower, rather than a Stark, bugs me a bit. This would make the Stark legends more focused on surviving as Kings of Winter during the Long Night, rather than on how they figured in humanity's fight against the Others during the LN. They lived in some sort of understanding / alliance with the Others (via sacrifice of baby sons? a step up from sacrificing to weirwoods). That's the dark secret of Stark history - they were the big collaborators, not the liberators. How else do you pull off being a King of Winter during the LN? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The weight of evidence for the LH being a Dayne/Hightower, rather than a Stark, bugs me a bit. This would make the Stark legends more focused on surviving as Kings of Winter during the Long Night, rather than on how they figured in humanity's fight against the Others during the LN. They lived in some sort of understanding / alliance with the Others (via sacrifice of baby sons? a step up from sacrificing to weirwoods). That's the dark secret of Stark history - they were the big collaborators, not the liberators. How else do you pull off being a King of Winter during the LN? :)

 

The Starks have ice in their blood, it is known. I definitely consider it possible that heir past is a bit darker than some might think. 

 

There's a chance that the Starks descend from Azor Ahai, as weird as that is, if indeed AA = the NK. The Night's Queen is the spitting image of the ice moon maiden, and Nissa Nissa represents the fire moon of course. So, if AA first took Nissa Nissa to wife, who should be next? An ice moon maiden. NK was a warrior without peer. And there's one thing about the Others which nobody ever talks about... 

 

Why are their eyes blue stars? Blue stars are the hottest type of star, and the Others have burning star eyes. That indicates an inner fire, doesn't it? The ice dragons are supposed to breath cold, some kind of active cold that is more like a chilled version of fire. Perhaps that's what happened - if a fire warrior sleeps with an ice priestess, and the ice priestess sucks his shadow away a la Stannis and Mel, you create white shadows with inner fire?

 

Just speculating here. We are beyond the horizon line of the things I have researched more thoroughly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Hey Clarissa, I didn't miss your comment. I looked at the wiki and here's what it says:

 

These metals include:

  • Black iron (Ravenry) 
  • Brass 
  • Bronze (Astronomy
  • Copper (History) 
  • Electrum (Astrology)
  • Yellow Gold (Economics) 
  • Iron (Warcraft) 
  • Lead 
  • Pale steel (Smithing) 
  • Pewter 
  • Platinum 
  • Red gold 
  • Silver (Medicine and healing) 
  • Steel 
  • Tin 
  • Valyrian steel (Magic and the occult) - Only one in one hundred holds a link of Valyrian steel; the study of magic is looked down upon by most maesters.[8]

 

Not sure what to make of that, since iron is usually black. 

 

Iron is naturally a sliver-gray color, but it comes in a few forms with various added chemicals. The various "additives" impact the final color: Hematite (reddish); limonite (yellow-brown), magnetite (black), and siderite.

 
I've been meaning to mention iron ores to you. I haven't because I also haven't mentioned yet that I think you "might" be underestimating earthquake and volcanic forces---or at least understating them.
Iron is my top pick for some of the black stone in your theory. Being around all that magnetism could have weird effects on people.
 
By far, the two most economically important iron ores are hematite and magnetite. Although hematite is more abundant than magnetite, magnetite has the higher iron content, so magnetite iron ore deposits are highly sought after. Economic magnetite deposits primarily occur in layered igneous rocks that formed from the slow cooling of magma, heavy mineral sedimentary deposits, and Early Proterozoic (2.5 to 1.6 billion years ago) marine precipitates. The iron from magnetite and hematite deposits is the source of the steel used almost universally through our modern society’s physical infrastructure. Without these two ores, human society would literally not have made it to the Iron Age, much less to modern civilization.
https://www.esci.umn.edu/courses/1001/minerals/magnetite.shtml

 

 

A tiny bit of black tint goes a long way toward the final color of a rock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×